The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread

Here's an idea...

Get a couple Bishops and a couple Heros, NLs, etc. to give soloing exp/hour rates.

You can directly convert exp per hour into damage per second if you know what monster they were killing (hp & exp) - obviously you have to account for HS/2x card bonuses here and give the actual exp you get per kill.

For example, on my Paladin I get around 2m/hr at Red Wyverns soloing. Since they're 2500 exp 53000 exp, I am killing 800, doing 42,400,000 damage, for a total of around 12000 damage per second.


Running in the fact that I'm using ACB @ 330%, that represents approximately 15% efficiency. 85% of my potential damage is gone due to map concerns (mostly the fact that Red Wyverns rarely mob larger than 3-4, and it takes a while walking between mobs)

That will only work if you give all of them "equivalent" gear. However, that gets a bit hard because the skills modify attack in their own peculiar way.

Huh?

This is a fundamental problem that people seem to have in this area; other people having a strength does not make you weak.

EXACTLY. THANK YOU GOD. I LOVE YOU.

This is the main problem and this is what i see people complaining about when they compare themselves to bishops. I'm a luk mage (40 base) AND i'm an I/L AM so i'm not as strong as lukless bishops or lukless AMs but i accept that cause i'm still strong nonetheless.

That will only work if you give all of them "equivalent" gear. However, that gets a bit hard because the skills modify attack in their own peculiar way.

Honestly,the gap in gear ("decent" to "best") barely affects training, maps have a hard limit and it especially isn't important for mages. Technique has always been more important than damage dealt. If you're wasting your damage, it doesn't matter that you do 3% more than someone else.

To take it into account, you could find Bishops who 1hko, 2hko, and 3hko the mobs they train on and get exp/hour for each.



I dunno, I just feel that if Arch Mages are stronger than me in every way, it's harder for me to party if I ever want to. Not all maps are ideal solo material. FoG is faster exp without partying if you have 3+ people in a channel. Red Wyverns are definitely better exp in a party, but I've only done it once or twice. I/Ls channel hop through, don't even ask - they don't want or need to party, their Blizzard 1hkos everything in sight. I generally party DKs, other WKs, or Priest/Bishops trying to complete the Bahamut quest. Not a whole lot of people in any of those groups... DKs get better exp elsewhere, Bishops only need to kill so many Wyverns and they're done.

Honestly,the gap in gear ("decent" to "best") barely affects training, maps have a hard limit and it especially isn't important for mages. Technique has always been more important than damage dealt. If you're wasting your damage, it doesn't matter that you do 3% more than someone else.

Hah! Why then was I able to dominate Dreamy Ghosts in my hayday so well? Why then was I 2hking Skele 100% with Gen when others were barely within 100% 3hk? You don't consider the difference in speed between 100% 2hk and 100% 3hk to be notable?

And this is coming from a Magician, the class who has the absolute LEAST to gain from better equipment. I shudder to think what sort of a boost I'd have over average if I was playing a Nightlord (but then again, given the amount of money I had invested in my gear, I'd never have been able to afford a comparable full set of Thief garb).

Yeah, my technique was ahead of the game at Dreamy Ghosts in regards to how other Priests went at it (MG on, good use of Heal versus SR, Dragon out at all times), but even without that, I was still noticeably ahead. Depending on my training partner, I would even sometimes go MGless and not bring out Dragon, because if I went all out, their spawn got overrun while mine fell down to almost nothing.

To take it into account, you could find Bishops who 1hko, 2hko, and 3hko the mobs they train on and get exp/hour for each.

How does that matter? Are you not of the opinion that Bishops should get the best experience rates? If you want balanced experience across the board, I'll say right now that that's impossible (short of, like I already conjectured, making all classes identical with no advantages/disadvantages), and furthermore, it throws off the nature of Holy Magicians that makes them "unnaturally" higher in number. Do you not think it is a good idea for there to be more Holy Magicians than the other classes?

I dunno, I just feel that if Arch Mages are stronger than me in every way, it's harder for me to party if I ever want to. Not all maps are ideal solo material.

Not every class can contribute as much to a party as others. This doesn't mean that it's a good idea to nerf one of the best contributors though, because even if you do, there will always be someone who can contribute more to the party than the "worst" class.

Remember, this is a social game. If you pick a class that doesn't add as much to the party (that is to say, doesn't have any good party skills and isn't noteworthy for strength), go the social route. Party friends. Really, if you're playing the game without taking into consideration the others in the game, you're not playing the game right.

And anyway, I think a better solution for the party problem you identified would be to modify existing class's buffs to make them more worthwhile. Why not make Chakra a great party buff? Why not make Magic Booster a party buff (screw Viper's, they have Time Leap)? Why not make Shield Mastery a worthwhile party buff (i.e., cut damage by a certain percent like Cleric's Invincible)? And for that matter, why not make Mage's Demons more effective and more useful?

See? All those things. They would be great for the lesser wanted in party (although, I suppose, Mages ARE wanted in 4th job for once... meh), and they do it by making the class themselves better. That's how you do it. Don't pull the better classes down, bring the lesser classes up!

FoG is faster exp without partying if you have 3+ people in a channel. Red Wyverns are definitely better exp in a party, but I've only done it once or twice. I/Ls channel hop through, don't even ask - they don't want or need to party, their Blizzard 1hkos everything in sight. I generally party DKs, other WKs, or Priest/Bishops trying to complete the Bahamut quest. Not a whole lot of people in any of those groups... DKs get better exp elsewhere, Bishops only need to kill so many Wyverns and they're done.[/color]

The problem you are identifying seems to be more related to the fact that there aren't any good elemental monsters. Have you tried going to Dreamy Ghosts with Holy Charge? If I had to guess, I'd think that would be the most effective choice for you, and if you're lucky, you could even get a little low level Priest to come heal for you.

Other than that, yeah, definitely, there should be a lot better choices for Fire and Ice elementalists. Just take a look at what 4th job Mages are doing and you'll find it obvious. Then again, with the release of the broken weapons, giving Mages a good elemental training ground only breaks things further. You're upset about Bishops hitting ~50k in 13x? Wait til you see Mages hitting 75k+ in 13x.

Huh?

Why do monsters need to remove other classes for them to be good for Paladins? Just because Mages are able to fight well on the map doesn't mean that Paladins can't fight well on the map as well. This is a fundamental problem that people seem to have in this area; other people having a strength does not make you weak. If the issue is simply that you're concerned about available maps, I wouldn't fret. A single good map of elementally weak is better than no map at all, isn't it? And anyway, look at how Nexon America designs maps. There will be a few monsters and these monsters will appear in different setups in multiple different maps.

Yes it is SOLELY for the maps available.
Though I guess appropriate set up of map design would work well too.

Actually you could just make Lighting weak monsters.
That would too. (I am JUST worried about ultimates - other skills be damned)

Hah! Why then was I able to dominate Dreamy Ghosts in my hayday so well? Why then was I 2hking Skele 100% with Gen when others were barely within 100% 3hk? You don't consider the difference in speed between 100% 2hk and 100% 3hk to be notable?

Obviously it breaks down once you hit 3hko~1hko range, especially if you've got extra high mastery. When your minimum is 85% of your maximum, you don't have to have a whole lot of damage improvement to go from 3hko to 2hko as someone whose minimum is 30% of their maximum.

Anyway I'm talking about generally well equipped players, not some random dude who leeched his Priest to 120 and is using a Dark Oriental set with a Kage. The difference in my gear at 116 (total cost ~80mil) to 122 (total cost ~440mil) is 9 w.atk and around 20 str... which represents a 10% increase in damage for 450% increase in cost. From here, it just gets more expensive... I could easily drop another 300mil getting 2 more atk. I'm sure a similar jump in damage for Mages works out to similar kind of cost effectiveness... (aside Elemental Staffs which I kinda agree are a shitty way to boost mage damage)

How does that matter? Are you not of the opinion that Bishops should get the best experience rates? If you want balanced experience across the board, I'll say right now that that's impossible (short of, like I already conjectured, making all classes identical with no advantages/disadvantages), and furthermore, it throws off the nature of Holy Magicians that makes them "unnaturally" higher in number. Do you not think it is a good idea for there to be more Holy Magicians than the other classes?

I'm just curious, ok? People say "omg Bishops train 5 times as fast as me" I want to know the truth. How fast do Bishops gain exp? What damage are they doing?

Not every class can contribute as much to a party as others. This doesn't mean that it's a good idea to nerf one of the best contributors though, because even if you do, there will always be someone who can contribute more to the party than the "worst" class.

There will always be a difference, but does it have to be "kills 75% of the map in 2.5 seconds" vs "kills 75% of the map in about a minute" :/

And anyway, I think a better solution for the party problem you identified would be to modify existing class's buffs to make them more worthwhile. Why not make Chakra a great party buff? Why not make Magic Booster a party buff (screw Viper's, they have Time Leap)? Why not make Shield Mastery a worthwhile party buff (i.e., cut damage by a certain percent like Cleric's Invincible)? And for that matter, why not make Mage's Demons more effective and more useful?

Great, except like most Paladins I didn't bother with Shield Mastery or Magic Crash cause they're both 100% useless to a 2h melee class. If they start making extreme skill changes they should give us free SP resets like WoW does.

The problem you are identifying seems to be more related to the fact that there aren't any good elemental monsters. Have you tried going to Dreamy Ghosts with Holy Charge? If I had to guess, I'd think that would be the most effective choice for you, and if you're lucky, you could even get a little low level Priest to come heal for you.

Himes are the most effective choice even in 3rd job, it's just that much better than any map. Unfortunately, I can't train there, for reasons which are unlikely to change in the next 6 months.

I'm just curious, ok? People say "omg Bishops train 5 times as fast as me" I want to know the truth. How fast do Bishops gain exp? What damage are they doing?

I had a friend who used to train with me that can OHKO Skelegons. I think he used to get around 15m an hour solo on 1x. The best I can get in the best possible non-[ultimate spammer] party is 12m an hour. Solo I get something hideous like 8m an hour.

Hah! Why then was I able to dominate Dreamy Ghosts in my hayday so well? Why then was I 2hking Skele 100% with Gen when others were barely within 100% 3hk? You don't consider the difference in speed between 100% 2hk and 100% 3hk to be notable?

And this is coming from a Magician, the class who has the absolute LEAST to gain from better equipment. I shudder to think what sort of a boost I'd have over average if I was playing a Nightlord (but then again, given the amount of money I had invested in my gear, I'd never have been able to afford a comparable full set of Thief garb).

Yeah, my technique was ahead of the game at Dreamy Ghosts in regards to how other Priests went at it (MG on, good use of Heal versus SR, Dragon out at all times), but even without that, I was still noticeably ahead. Depending on my training partner, I would even sometimes go MGless and not bring out Dragon, because if I went all out, their spawn got overrun while mine fell down to almost nothing.


How does that matter? Are you not of the opinion that Bishops should get the best experience rates? If you want balanced experience across the board, I'll say right now that that's impossible (short of, like I already conjectured, making all classes identical with no advantages/disadvantages), and furthermore, it throws off the nature of Holy Magicians that makes them "unnaturally" higher in number. Do you not think it is a good idea for there to be more Holy Magicians than the other classes?


Not every class can contribute as much to a party as others. This doesn't mean that it's a good idea to nerf one of the best contributors though, because even if you do, there will always be someone who can contribute more to the party than the "worst" class.

Remember, this is a social game. If you pick a class that doesn't add as much to the party (that is to say, doesn't have any good party skills and isn't noteworthy for strength), go the social route. Party friends. Really, if you're playing the game without taking into consideration the others in the game, you're not playing the game right.

And anyway, I think a better solution for the party problem you identified would be to modify existing class's buffs to make them more worthwhile. Why not make Chakra a great party buff? Why not make Magic Booster a party buff (screw Viper's, they have Time Leap)? Why not make Shield Mastery a worthwhile party buff (i.e., cut damage by a certain percent like Cleric's Invincible)? And for that matter, why not make Mage's Demons more effective and more useful?

See? All those things. They would be great for the lesser wanted in party (although, I suppose, Mages ARE wanted in 4th job for once... meh), and they do it by making the class themselves better. That's how you do it. Don't pull the better classes down, bring the lesser classes up!

The problem you are identifying seems to be more related to the fact that there aren't any good elemental monsters. Have you tried going to Dreamy Ghosts with Holy Charge? If I had to guess, I'd think that would be the most effective choice for you, and if you're lucky, you could even get a little low level Priest to come heal for you.

Other than that, yeah, definitely, there should be a lot better choices for Fire and Ice elementalists. Just take a look at what 4th job Mages are doing and you'll find it obvious. Then again, with the release of the broken weapons, giving Mages a good elemental training ground only breaks things further. You're upset about Bishops hitting ~50k in 13x? Wait til you see Mages hitting 75k+ in 13x.

I don't understand how making the leading class(es) weaker is really any different than making the lagging class(es) stronger, if they're still more or less proportional in the end.

If Nexon decided to give cooldown to Bishops, and then give everyone (including Bishops) double damage, would you like that, then?

I don't understand how making the leading class(es) weaker is really any different than making the lagging class(es) stronger, if they're still more or less proportional in the end.

If Nexon decided to give cooldown to Bishops, and then give everyone (including Bishops) double damage, would you like that, then?

Customer Service (nexon lawlz) pretty much demands that you can GIVE MORE but never TAKE AWAY.
Most people would just be outraged. At any nerf. At all.
Only Buffs would receive LESS outrage.

I don't understand how making the leading class(es) weaker is really any different than making the lagging class(es) stronger, if they're still more or less proportional in the end.

On one side of the table, you end up with a TON of people peaching about the class being weakened.

On the other side, you have EVERYONE jumping up for joy about how great it is to have Paladins, Shadowers, etc. being able to help their party.

If Nexon decided to give cooldown to Bishops, and then give everyone (including Bishops) double damage, would you like that, then?

Uh... considering that Genesis is not an across the board "lead by 2x damage", I would say no, and furthermore, I'd say that any instance where the lead is that drastic, that lead is ENTIRELY warranted. And putting an ACTUAL cooldown on Genesis pineapples Bishops because we have NO other viable attack. If we can't cast at least 2 Genesises per 10 seconds, pomegranate would suck balls (compared to the potential 3 Genesises per 10 seconds right now), so a cast time less than 5 seconds would technically not be too horrible (and frankly, it wouldn't slow our killing a whole lot either, due to the nature of waiting for spawn anyway). But ideally, I don't think a nerf is truly necessary. Bishops being so good only helps the other classes, it doesn't hurt them. It's a good thing that Bishops (and Mages, for that matter) are able to deal the kind of damage they do.

And I don't think ANYONE would be upset over Paladins (defensive boost, or maybe even HS or a HP regen), Shadowers (wouldn't be hard to turn Chakra into something worthwhile), and Mages (how about make med add a percent-based amount of Magic so that the skill is not outdone by potions, and heck, make it add mdef while you're at it too) getting their party skills revamped to make them more worthwhile. While you're at it, you could boost Rage, too (see: what Med needs above). The only problem would be if they beef up skills that most people avoided, but all they'd need to do is instate all support skill boosts in a single patch, and when the patch goes live, give all relevant players a free means to reset any/all SP they want.

And I don't think ANYONE would be upset over Paladins (defensive boost, or maybe even HS or a HP regen), Shadowers (wouldn't be hard to turn Chakra into something worthwhile), and Mages (how about make med add a percent-based amount of Magic so that the skill is not outdone by potions, and heck, make it add mdef while you're at it too) getting their party skills revamped to make them more worthwhile. While you're at it, you could boost Rage, too (see: what Med needs above). The only problem would be if they beef up skills that most people avoided, but all they'd need to do is instate all support skill boosts in a single patch, and when the patch goes live, give all relevant players a free means to reset any/all SP they want.

I think it is nice and lovely as a thought.
But if Nexon DID implement said changes they would NOT give us free SP resets.
They'd reap the benefits.
Though I do see those new Knights of WhatNot (the little KMS testing classes) as experimenting with new ideas of partiablity.
...
I think a more feasible fix would be monster changes and/or weapons- (think crushed Skull- the BW)

On one side of the table, you end up with a TON of people peaching about the class being weakened.

And now Newtie Party X lets Lonely Paladin Y join and benefit because Genesis Bishop Z doesn't make him obsolete anymore.

On the other side, you have EVERYONE jumping up for joy about how great it is to have Paladins, Shadowers, etc. being able to help their party.

1) Haven't you been arguing that Bishops' support skills barely help themselves at all? So why would said Paladins and Shadowers care?
2) Anything they have that'll benefit their own killing rate, and you have a ton of people peaching about being KSed by them.

And a cooldown time of 5 seconds is infinitely better than a casting time of 5 seconds, if you would just drop the stand-in-one-spot mentality.

1) Haven't you been arguing that Bishops' support skills barely help themselves at all? So why would said Paladins and Shadowers care?

No, I was pointing out that Bishop's support skills that they're lauded for do not help them (even HS only adds 10% if not in party). It doesn't help the Bishop very much (or at all in the case of most "boss-only" party skills), but it helps the party, and because of that, they're wanted for parties. Give a Paladin HS and you would have more Paladins in parties; give a Shadower a good party skill and you'd have more Shadowers in parties. The idea isn't that party skills are pomegranate, it's that party skills are FOR PARTIES rather than the individual. Give more party skills and those classes will have a better time in parties, and better time in parties equals more better parties and more better parties equals all around better times had by all.

If I had to say though, I would probably make HS a Paladin skill just so that you don't have people leaching through 3rd job as a WK thanks to HS. Priests are a lot more reasonable in that they're SUPPOSED to give back to the party by healing.

2) Anything they have that'll benefit their own killing rate, and you have a ton of people peaching about being KSed by them.

People are going to peach about this no matter what. It's not because of classes KSing them, it's because of assholes. No matter what classes have what abilities, there will be assholes, and there will be assholes who decide to just be annoying. If not them peaching about Magicians KSing, they'd be peaching about Heroes or Nightlords or Bowmasters or whoever else they might have gotten KSed by that day.

And a cooldown time of 5 seconds is infinitely better than a casting time of 5 seconds, if you would just drop the stand-in-one-spot mentality.

I just don't like the idea of a cooldown. I'd rather have a longer, more epic animation. And besides, having the same cast time but added cooldown would allow the player to walk around and loot and things during those two additional seconds. Frankly, simply putting a few seconds of additional wait in the form of cool down doesn't cause enough of a real block to the damaging power, just makes things annoying to see your chat box spammed with "That skill is not ready yet."

No, I was pointing out that Bishop's support skills that they're lauded for do not help them (even HS only adds 10% if not in party). It doesn't help the Bishop very much (or at all in the case of most "boss-only" party skills), but it helps the party, and because of that, they're wanted for parties. Give a Paladin HS and you would have more Paladins in parties; give a Shadower a good party skill and you'd have more Shadowers in parties. The idea isn't that party skills are pomegranate, it's that party skills are FOR PARTIES rather than the individual. Give more party skills and those classes will have a better time in parties, and better time in parties equals more better parties and more better parties equals all around better times had by all.

So what are you peaching about?

I just don't like the idea of a cooldown. I'd rather have a longer, more epic animation. And besides, having the same cast time but added cooldown would allow the player to walk around and loot and things during those two additional seconds. Frankly, simply putting a few seconds of additional wait in the form of cool down doesn't cause enough of a real block to the damaging power, just makes things annoying to see your chat box spammed with "That skill is not ready yet."

What's wrong with that?
I'm not entirely sure how it's all coded, but I believe they could make it a slightly longer BStep-type delay rather than an actual visible cooldown. That takes care of the rather trivial chat box problem, and I don't have a problem with being able to walk around and loot.

Plenty of other possibilities too.

Just to explore one example, how about an echo effect? Instead of being a one-time attack, give it a huge epic animation (the way you like it ) that sets an initial map effect at the spot you're standing. Then the ultimate auto-casts itself from that spot a total of 3 or 4 times, spaced 5 seconds apart. Give it a cooldown time of 30 seconds or so, and in the meantime, you can go over to the other side of the map and clear out some of the spawn there while it's running.

This way you can have your mass mob DPS half the time, and if you want the other half you can actively hunt for it like everyone else does.

Luk vs Lukless? DK vs Hero? WK vs Beginner?

It has been a looong while since i LOL'd in a forum. Thank you

If Nexon decided to give cooldown to Bishops, and then give everyone (including Bishops) double damage, would you like that, then?

I'm pretty sure nexon could never (and would never) change Genesis to have a cool down. Also, Implementing double damage would ruin rankings, pinapple up training (like how i finally 2 hit a skele 4 weeks ago and now bishops want to train with me), and what would a bishop do after 14x~15x. Max damage is 99999 atm and im pretty sure bishops can only do like 99600 or something weird. Bishops would be training at skeles from 13x on (if they dont have massive amounts of luk) and their dmg would be maxed out at 14x. How much fun is that?

 Guess what!?

none

~Before implementing double dmg~ OMG i hit max dmg (what an accomplishment! <at lvl 17x~20x> bishops: 17x mages: 19x

~After implementing double dmg~ OMG I am lukless and lvl 14x and I hit max dmg!

Not quite as rewarding (to me.)

p.s. bishops are pro, leave them alone!

It has been a looong while since i LOL'd in a forum. Thank you



I'm pretty sure nexon could never (and would never) change Genesis to have a cool down. Also, Implementing double damage would ruin rankings, pinapple up training (like how i finally 2 hit a skele 4 weeks ago and now bishops want to train with me), and what would a bishop do after 14x~15x. Max damage is 99999 atm and im pretty sure bishops can only do like 99600 or something weird. Bishops would be training at skeles from 13x on (if they dont have massive amounts of luk) and their dmg would be maxed out at 14x. How much fun is that?

 Guess what!?

none

~Before implementing double dmg~ OMG i hit max dmg (what an accomplishment! <at lvl 17x~20x> bishops: 17x mages: 19x

~After implementing double dmg~ OMG I am lukless and lvl 14x and I hit max dmg!

Not quite as rewarding (to me.)

p.s. bishops are pro, leave them alone!

[COLOR="Red"]
We were priests before![/COLOR]