Nexon: Can and Can't.

Which brings me to the item duping. They can most likely search for items using their IDs and see what everyone has. But depending on the database they're using they might not be able to add specific conditions to search, such as, item stats. So while they can list everyone owning a particular item, they may not be able to find the duped/bugged/hacked ones without looking manually at all the current ones.

I don't know how much access they have to the database - but given they can delete characters based on some conditions (even the wrong ones) implies a fair amount. So it's not like their thumbs are tied. They just don't seem to have staff who can understand/address problems well.

Uh, no?
To make an extreme analogy: If my local hospital has patients dying like flies, should I apply to work there if I have no medical knowledge?
Does my lack of medical knowledge disqualify me from observing the place must be run all wrong?
No and no. I can and should protest as much as I can and demand they replace their incompetent staff with better people.

It is not necessary to be able and willing to do a better job myself. It is only necessary to know that a better job can be done. And there are plentiful examples for that.

You know, I thought my pizza analogy was perfectly fine, and you just had to go and say something better.

How dare you?

Well there goes your credibility.

My thoughts exactly.

I'm gonna be a good boy and not get all board-ist up in hurr.

And we're all to conclude that just because a method is more cost-effective, a company should utilize that method, regardless of the effect on the end.

Then I'll again assume that you've never run a business yourself. In case you wonder (I'll whisper this! It's about making money!)

Yeah, I'm not surprised that you're going to just assume I don't understand you. It makes it a tad easier for you to presume your argument to be infallible.

Well, since you can't seem to read, judging is easy.

However, back in reality, a game modification doesn't have to alter the client-server interaction to qualify as modifying the code.

Remember your previous statement, "I'm pretty sure developing content involves altering the code. Questions?"

The whole post is regarding server/client modification on what they can and can't do. The whole argument is about why they can't fix server/client-related issues. Get me?

A TOS' existence does not in itself make it a bonding contract. There are several clauses within Nexon's TOS that would not hold up in a court of law.

http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/o...D0411P.pdf

Again, you must be new here.

No, not really.

Well there goes your credibility.

No, not really.

Uh, no?
To make an extreme analogy: If my local hospital has patients dying like flies, should I apply to work there if I have no medical knowledge?
Does my lack of medical knowledge disqualify me from observing the place must be run all wrong?
No and no. I can and should protest as much as I can and demand they replace their incompetent staff with better people.

It is not necessary to be able and willing to do a better job myself. It is only necessary to know that a better job can be done. And there are plentiful examples for that.

I'm not against the protest itself. It's just that in the current state, if you want to help - help them out by working there. Bitching about the same old things they can't do anything about won't really do much, now will it? Start a OWS if you wish, you know where they work.

I'm pretty sure developing content involves altering the code. Questions?

This is the equivalent of saying that anyone who downloads a map/level editor for <insert game here> is capable of re-writing the engine.
There's a significant difference between artistic development, storyline development, map development and actual engine development.

I'm not against the protest itself. It's just that in the current state, if you want to help - help them out by working there. peaching about the same old things they can't do anything about won't really do much, now will it? Start a OWS if you wish, you know where they work.

The key flaw in your "suggestion" is that Nexon would have to:

A) Be willing to hire someone.
B) Be willing to listen to someone.

Considering how well that went for NxProse and NxJoe your suggestion has no merit because even if one were to apply and were to get hired, the only position that would have any power to do anything is higher up than they will ever hire for, because they fill those positions with staff from the Korean office to keep a firm reign on the company.

Your advice is as useful as us telling Nexon to "fail less".

Bottom line to this thread:
It's OK to acknowledge what they can and can't do. Helpful even. Let's not piss and moan over such retarded concepts as who's white knighting for whom, who's a basher of what, etc. You all have opinions. That's just great. You're all equally entitled to them so stop stabbing at each others like they're a threat to your own existence and have some decent conversation over actual points if you have any. And if you don't, stay out or be kicked out. Just that easy.

Then I'll again assume that you've never run a business yourself. In case you wonder (I'll whisper this! It's about making money!)

Ohh! Look at you build them straw men.
Just because a method results in more revenue doesn't make it ethical or even legal.

Well, since you can't seem to read, judging is easy.

So you're just abandoning that failure of a point. I'll adjust the scoreboard appropriately.

Remember your previous statement, "I'm pretty sure developing content involves altering the code. Questions?"

The whole post is regarding server/client modification on what they can and can't do. The whole argument is about why they can't fix server/client-related issues. Get me?

Except that's not at all what your original post alleges.
You said, quite plainly: "And by that I mean adding new functions to the server or client."

They have.

http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/o...D0411P.pdf

How about you post something relevant to the discussion?
Protip: sharing a keyword doth not relevant make.

This is the equivalent of saying that anyone who downloads a map/level editor for <insert game here> is capable of re-writing the engine.
There's a significant difference between artistic development, storyline development, map development and actual engine development.

I'm aware. They've done all of the above.

This is the equivalent of saying that anyone who downloads a map/level editor for <insert game here> is capable of re-writing the engine.
There's a significant difference between artistic development, storyline development, map development and actual engine development.

I'm aware. They've done all of the above.

(You playing clicky-clicky with the Closed Thread button is making it difficult to reply, you know.)

Then I'll again assume that you've never run a business yourself. In case you wonder (I'll whisper this! It's about making money!)

Well, since you can't seem to read, judging is easy.

Do you ever stop with the personal attacks? That's a serious question.
Back on topic, just because a practice makes more money doesn't make it ethical or even legal.

Remember your previous statement, "I'm pretty sure developing content involves altering the code. Questions?"

The whole post is regarding server/client modification on what they can and can't do. The whole argument is about why they can't fix server/client-related issues. Get me?

And I'm asserting that they have added functions to both.
If they experience difficulties doing this, they need to acquire adequate staff to remedy that issue.

http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/o...D0411P.pdf

Sharing a keyword doth not relevant make.

I'm aware. They've done all of the above.

Only valid if you actually know who did what, and you in particular have no idea what portions of our work get done by local development and which get farmed off to Korea. The local devs maintain the hardware, databases, and do routine crap. Anything else comes from the portion of the KMS team that is designated to support our locale. GMS may ask them for things, and submit wishlists, but that doesn't mean they actually do the work.

Only valid if you actually know who did what, and you in particular have no idea what portions of our work get done by local development and which get farmed off to Korea. The local devs maintain the hardware, databases, and do routine crap. Anything else comes from the portion of the KMS team that is designated to support our locale. GMS may ask them for things, and submit wishlists, but that doesn't mean they actually do the work.

The exact interminglings of their office are hidden behind obscurity (so that, unless I'm mistaken, none of us know exactly who does what), it's true, but that's not the core issue here.
The issue is that, whatever the system is, it doesn't work.

If every bit of engine altering code has to be, at minimum, run by the Korean branch or, at maximum, constructed directly by them, and that system is what has resulted in the current clusterpineapple, then that system needs to be changed, not excused.

If Nexon America has to ask permission to wipe itself, then maybe there need to be people with that ability to grant them permission in-house so that massive issues can be dealt with more quickly and effectively (or even avoided entirely).

Much like Nexon America has certain obligations to its consumers, Nexon Korea should have certain obligations to its subsidiaries.

Well Nexon's headquarters is in japan, so they probably send the wishlists to them and after that to the development team (wherever it is), if approved. We actually know that the code of the game is different for every MS version thanks to the development team's blog (well that's what they said, maybe it's a lie to look competent and hardworker). And when you have a problem that happens almost every time you do something, you learn to solve it by your own, it's a lot better to train someone to do minor fixes than interrupt the core development team to fix it and we know this is something hard for nexon to do because almost everygame, if not all, have major problems and no because latins and other people outside USA or Canada, it's because they really don't know how to manage a game or at least a fair customer-money earned relation.

I don't believe anyone has excused it, but it's an unfortunate reality that we have no ability to change.
It's also a very common one when games are licensed out like this. Even if they did have people capable of making radical changes, or getting radical unique changes added by the true developers, they would have a very hard time actually doing them and maintaining compatibility with the parent-source, which is how a lot of our more drastic breakages occurred if you recall, as well as intermingling of features never intended to be present simultaneously.

We all know the system is broken. No one is denying or arguing it so stop trying to rally that cause to people who've known it half a decade now.

Well Nexon's headquarters is in japan

They're in Seoul, Korea, not Japan.
http://company.nexon.com/Eng/Contactus/L...ation.aspx

I don't believe anyone has excused it, but it's an unfortunate reality that we have no ability to change.
It's also a very common one when games are licensed out like this. Even if they did have people capable of making radical changes, or getting radical unique changes added by the true developers, they would have a very hard time actually doing them and maintaining compatibility with the parent-source, which is how a lot of our more drastic breakages occurred if you recall, as well as intermingling of features never intended to be present simultaneously.

We have no ability to change any of the things we complain about on here. That's why we complain about them, in fact.

As far as compatibility goes, if NexonKR does do all of the radical changes, then I don't quite understand why the breakages occur at all. They should be equally aware of their code and compatibility issues whether they're developing universal content or "exclusive content" for other versions.
I can see how NexonKR wouldn't necessarily be keeping track of all of the features they added for NexonAM, but that just comes back to NexonAM needing someone in-house to oversee such things.

On a side note, I don't know the intricacies, but is it still a licensing situation if NexonKR is the parent company?

We all know the system is broken. No one is denying or arguing it so stop trying to rally that cause to people who've known it half a decade now.

I'm not trying to rally anyone to anything, thanks.

oh boy a white knight

while you may be right, that still doesn't excuse their absolutely HORRIBLE customer service.

Automated e-mail replies count as customer service?

As far as compatibility goes, if NexonKR does do all of the radical changes, then I don't quite understand why the breakages occur at all.

You need to consider how far apart the versions were until recently.

If GMS requested a change to their version, a unique addition for example, it was being inserted into a version of the codebase that KMS hadn't used for months, if not years. KMS didn't then go through and port it forward into their own fork, they just left the branches distinct so that GMS was no longer evolving into KMS, but was evolving into an alternate reality KMS with it's own historical differences. When they then wanted to do an upgrade they'd graft over the code from the KMS fork from the appropriate point directly into GMS's branch. Generally when you try to upgrade branch B version 66 to version 67 you look at the differences between branch A 66 and 67, and then apply those. For something this complicated you actually have to look at the differences between Branch A 66 and Branch B 66, compare those, then compare the differences between 66 and 67 and try to merge them carefully, but the more complicated the differences between the two 66s the more horrifying the potential to miss something and create the disasters we've had. Now throw in that they were also cross pollenating from MSEA and JMS and you've reached six orders of magnitudes of complexity, because each of those is also at it's own distinct evolutionary point diverging from the base model.

For an easy example; Think of Fiel's conundrum trying to show you changes between GMS and GMST. He has to show what changed in GMS version X going into GMST version Y, but then when it moves to prod he has to pick between showing what changed from GMS X to Y, or GMST Y to GMS Y. Now multiply by six, find all the differences between every possible combination of versions and try putting them together. It's doable, but it's not quick, not pretty, and leaves a lot of room for error and oversight if you don't know 100% what everything you're touching in every version may interact with.

I believe the horrible unsustainability of that scenario is why everyone is so similar now.

I don't know the intricacies, but is it still a licensing situation if NexonKR is the parent company?

A subsidiary generally follows the same licensing model as other franchise participants, they're just a franchise that's owned by the corporation.
Some times this means the licensing is done via "funny money" (no real charge because they're all using the same pool) but in international cases more often than not the subsidiary is treated as an independent entity and responsible for billing, upkeep, etc, just as if they were another company because they have their own income stream, their own taxes, their own accounts and for legal purposes are independent.

Since they're not publicly traded it's really hard to say how they're doing it, but the more aggressive split seems likely from how they've described interactions.