Will gach, cubes etc. soon become illegal?

So you're supporting hacking / hackers? Good to know.

There's a difference between acknowledging they exist, and supporting hacking...
I acknowledge that cocaine has value, and that drug cartels sell it. OMG I MUST BE SUPPORTING THE ILLEGAL DRUG TRADE!

So what you're suggesting is I could use my Mesos at a store like a Debit card?
Or how about a TF2 hat? Just because someone would pay real physical money for some virtual item, due to rarity, exclusivity or some other nonsense, DOES NOT give it value in the real world.

You also couldn't hand over Canadian dollars in most US stores and expect to buy anything, does this mean canadian money is only real in Canada?
No, it means just like any currency you have to go through an exchanger to make it compatible with the current locale.
You can sell your mesos to meso buying sites (or other players) for real world cash which you can then use for real world things, and in return the meso selling sites sell your mesos for even more cash to others.

BitCoin is an absolute fiction but it has been used for real world transactions in the same way. Currency is currency; As long as someone values it, it can be traded for other things and someone will find a way to exchange it somewhere. Money changing is the 2nd oldest profession.

So you're supporting hacking / hackers? Good to know.

You really didn't know what he meant there? I think it was pretty clear he was just acknowledging their existence.

Does wagering your invested time/effort in a video game equal wagering real material-valued goods?
I would say they are quite different in the consequences they potentially bring. If you run out of mesos, the worst you can do is go scam and piss off some other kid. If you run out of money, you'd probably do the same and risk starving a family.
Personal opinion here.

time = money

Even though most of us don't want to think or act like it is. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's important that we recognize the relationship even if we don't want it to run our lives.

Putting our heads in the sand, denying that there are real world economic consequences matters involving NX and mesos is silly. These consequences matter.

A kid who runs out of mesos could steal his parents credit cards for nx. An adult who runs out of mesos could do far worse... gambling addictions can become serious problems.

I thnk the simulator makes this worse. Just trying to get legendary on the simulator takes anywhere from 4- 100's of cubes (it could take 1 if you get a unique on reveal, but that's 1 in a million). THEN you have to use the more expensive item to try to get new stats that are valuable.

If you look at cubing and gachapon/pigmy, it's like playing the slots- money goes in, stuff comes out. Granted it is guaranteed to give you something (unlike slot machines), so it isn't really a regular gamble. It's still gambling in the fact that you invest real money to get a potentially money-worth item. By saying that the user gets a guaranteed item, Nexon could hypothetically say it isn't a "gamble". It sucks that this system is out yes, it sucks that, in order to get anywhere near end game content, you need to have good equips (which through common knowledge is 3 lined legendary items that give a shitton of stats and abilities, ie.e need to gamble on getting the desired outcome).

this

gambling isnt a legal activity for a person until they're "mature enough to understand the consequences" of losing, defined by government. when you gamble someone else's money, they're the ones who have to deal with the consequences, and this game has a significant player base of people who don't have their own money to spend and don't realize there ARE consequences.

And I have a lot of examples about kids who got addicted to "maple-gambling", both gach and cubes.

EDIT:

I'm still torn between which is better, maple turning into 18+ game or npc/drop cubes and gach.

But I believe nexon should make NPC cubes. And make them untradeable to prevent abuse. Not only would it be more player friendly, it would also suck a huge pile of mesos from our inflated economy.

And to make sure Nexon still makes money (well they would still make money because nx can be converted to more mesos) they could heavily drop down the chance of epic, unique and legendary when cubing, but add those as 3 scrolls to cash shop. Each of these would upgrade the tier of the pot. item.

We are all talking about cubes, but i find Gachapon to be far more ridiculous.

1000NX for a Fruit Knife? or for a level 15 thief top you can buy shortly after starting the game? Its absolutely stupid and i cant believe Nexon hasn't updated the tables yet, not only would it be fairer but it would make people want to Gach again, knowing they are not filling up their equip inventory with the most useless junk in the game, which obviously translates to more money for Nexon

And to make sure Nexon still makes money (well they would still make money because nx can be converted to more mesos) they could heavily drop down the chance of epic, unique and legendary when cubing, but add those as 3 scrolls to cash shop. Each of these would upgrade the tier of the pot. item.

That's a really good idea that would fit next to my ideas:

They have to remove all cash shop items that provide power and only keep vanity/utility/ease items. This includes for sure, cubes and hammers. To not render existing items either useless or overpowered, they could for example become available in stores for say 50 and 200m. Then they just need to improve their overall quality of the game, so lot's of new people join every day, and they will buy the items because they want to, not because they need to. They would probably feel a large dent in their profits applying this, but this could be filled for example with "expansion packs". Basically it would mean victoria is the "free" area. If you want to got to ossyria, you'd have to unlock it with a onetime (per account) fee. Same could be done for Ariant, ludus lake and leafre. This would mean a steady income and motivation to keep the games quality high so they attract alot of new players.

Kinda disappointed nobody commented on them. In short:
- Remove gamble items/ items that give unfair advantage, keep vanity/utility items (and make them perma)
- Make previous gamble items available in potion shops for mesos
- Make the game partially p2p, like skillbooks or unlocking area's in the cashshop
- Make sure to attract alot of new players by keeping the game's overall quality high and "invite a friend"-events

How awesome would this be

Yeah let's be more like Korea, where ya know, you have to provide the SSN during registration.

Personally, I would enjoy that IF it worked properly. The problem with that system is, would-be hackers could just start randomly generating SSNs and plugging them in until one works, banning hundreds of people who don't play or even potentially DO play the games.

They are why we can't have nice things in this world. ;_;

You really didn't know what he meant there? I think it was pretty clear he was just acknowledging their existence.

No, because I've honestly never visited those sites. I had absolutely no idea what he was going on about.

There's a difference between acknowledging they exist, and supporting hacking...
I acknowledge that cocaine has value, and that drug cartels sell it. OMG I MUST BE SUPPORTING THE ILLEGAL DRUG TRADE!

Yeah, my wording was extremely terrible, my bad.

Choosing to take a risk to get a good item is the definition of gambling
And what's the DFO method?^

It is but it would be a bit different then the way those people look at it.

?
Meso selling sites

Meso's are intangible, as is NX, you pay for the service, not the intangible item. That even says that in nexon's TOS. The main problem of your examples is that you're trying to argue basic things without understanding the content.

For example, your comparison of scrolls vs cubes is completely wrong because

1) They aren't sold in CS, I don't think anyone would care if there was a "meso" gambling system. You're gambling away effort, not money.

2) Scrolls, wards, white scrolls, pam songs, are 100% do what they are supposed to in their description. Cubes are completely ambiguous, and have so many options that it's a constant gamble of 1.2k nx. You can't give mesos a real life dollar amount because in court, it has no amount, while nx it's a direct exchange of rl money to credit. Mesos are simply an accessory of your character.

Meso's are intangible, as is NX, you pay for the service, not the intangible item. That even says that in nexon's TOS.

It's funny how little of the TOS would hold up in court. Just because they say it has no value and then charge you for it doesn't make it so.

2) Scrolls, wards, white scrolls, pam songs, are 100% do what they are supposed to in their description. Cubes are completely ambiguous, and have so many options that it's a constant gamble of 1.2k nx. You can't give mesos a real life dollar amount because in court, it has no amount, while nx it's a direct exchange of rl money to credit. Mesos are simply an accessory of your character.

In terms of cash flow vanity NX is an ever-shrinking and small part of the total.

Scrolls are % chance of outcome A, else B. Cubes are % chance of outcome A, % chance of B, C, and so forth. If you only value a few permutations (15%+ stat) then it's indistinguishable from a low success rate scroll that doesn't take away slots.

There are several available measures of NX:mesos. Least of which is Nexon selling mesos for nx in CS. A court isn't going to throw that out simply because nexon tells them to.

Let's not confuse the issue here. If people want to turn real money into in game items, that's their prerogative. But if Nexon is running a casino with real (proxy) money, they should be subject to the same hoops avowed online casinos have to jump through. And as long as you can pay money for in game advancement and there is a chance-based upgrading system, that is unequivocally the case.

Cubes are completely ambiguous, and have so many options that it's a constant gamble of 1.2k nx.

Then again you could put it this way. A cubes purpose is to reset the potential stats of an item, getting better / worse stats is a side effect of this and you are only paying for the resetting of the potential not the outcome. Therefore a loophole. Gacha however is gambling and I cant think of a loophole for nexon to state otherwise.

Then again you could put it this way. A cubes purpose is to reset the potential stats of an item, getting better / worse stats is a side effect of this and you are only paying for the resetting of the potential not the outcome. Therefore a loophole. Gacha however is gambling and I cant think of a loophole for nexon to state otherwise.

gach is guaranteed to give you something, so not gambling :/

What is the difference between these two scenarios:

A) Bet $10, flip a coin
1) if heads, get $20
2) if tails, get $0

B) Bet $20, flip a coin
1) if heads, get $30
2) if tails, get $10

One of them has a minimum payout of $10, so it's not a gamble?

Of course not, both are gambles, you have a 50% chance of making $10 and a 50% chance of losing $10 in both.

It's funny how little of the TOS would hold up in court. Just because they say it has no value and then charge you for it doesn't make it so.

Just like your little understanding of court. First off the TOS in this case would, in all forms have no problem. NX has a solid price on it to gain credit in the game. It is not tangible, but represents credit, aka a service they only can provide. So yes if you feel like in someway you lost all your nx because it didn't charge correctly, then you could sue depending on how large of the claim. Although I don't see many 16-22 year olds sueing over 50k nx, where they'd lose more putting a case together.

As Eos has pointed out, a lot of the TOS is a scare tactic, but in order to conduct certain types of business, such as credit distribution you kind of have your hand ties exempt of certain circumstances, such as the code not working.

In terms of cash flow vanity NX is an ever-shrinking and small part of the total.

Scrolls are % chance of outcome A, else B. Cubes are % chance of outcome A, % chance of B, C, and so forth. If you only value a few permutations (15%+ stat) then it's indistinguishable from a low success rate scroll that doesn't take away slots.

Considering that the scroll itself has a percentage and a predetermined result, and isn't paid for in NX unless sold in the MTS, which by the way is an in-game developed price based off players judgement, it can't be compared to an item that gives you no information on what can come out of it. You're paying a dollar a chance to get a players best outcome which is also a pretty wide variable depending on class, level and really the education of the player.

There are several available measures of NX:mesos. Least of which is Nexon selling mesos for nx in CS. A court isn't going to throw that out simply because nexon tells them to.

No but the court will dismiss it when they see that it's event based, with a constant change of the circumstances of the meso bags. If your character gets hacked and you lose everything, however still maintain the character, it's like asking for the a full refund on a pot without a lid, items are all just mere accessories to it. You can't just go to court, to say "Well mesos were being sold this much then, during a reoccurcing event, so I assume since I lost 4b I want $400 in compensation. Obviously that isn't the case anymore as you could buy nearly 50b without that amount of money. Although in game transactions can consult meso selling websites to determine the value of something, that wouldn't hold up in court because it's at the price of time/effort it took to obtain that amount through questionable methods.

Let's not confuse the issue here. If people want to turn real money into in game items, that's their prerogative. But if Nexon is running a casino with real (proxy) money, they should be subject to the same hoops avowed online casinos have to jump through. And as long as you can pay money for in game advancement and there is a chance-based upgrading system, that is unequivocally the case.

Only for cubes, everything else has a loophole essentially.

Just like your little understanding of court.

Cute. Did you miss that whole part where this is about regulating gambling, not loss from gambling? Yeah, you did. Save it for the threads where people are whining about getting hacked and suing Nexon. You might buy into their small claims court defense and I suppose I do too, but instead of going for the snark you could try reading next time.

Considering that the scroll itself has a percentage and a predetermined result, and isn't paid for in NX unless sold in the MTS, which by the way is an in-game developed price based off players judgement, it can't be compared to an item that gives you no information on what can come out of it. You're paying a dollar a chance to get a players best outcome which is also a pretty wide variable depending on class, level and really the education of the player.

With that reasoning all Nexon would have to do is post a cube % result list and be all right with the world. That's obviously not the issue here. The existence of (mostly bad) outcomes in exchange for money is. The GRB isn't wholesale saying you can't peddle gambling to kids online, I wish they would - instead they're taking a more restrained view. But my argument is that the difference between cubes and scrolls is merely in degree, not nature. Both are gambles, and both are backed by real money when Nexon designs NX for in game purposes. Whether its a gamble with full information doesn't change the nature.

If they come down on Nexon over this, it'll probably just be cubes because of how low probability the rewards are. But when you've got things like the microwave event going on the argument that scrolls aren't gambling with real money wears awfully thin.

Just how bad a gamble is it okay to peddle to children? Just how bad a gamble is it okay to peddle at all when you aren't a casino or treated as such by law?

Technically, all cubes do is reset your item to hidden potential.
It's the magnifys that change the stats