Thrust.

PKB has no minimum range and can be used in mid-air (and pushes monsters much further away, where you won't suffer touch damage and where you can link into your more powerful skills). MB helps in the rare instance a monster spawns on you and pushes monsters out of minimum range, and your 4th job skills are typically enough to keep monsters off you and out of minimum range.

PKB doesn't count. If you're actually using PKB during training in 4th job, you're doing it wrong.

And I know when MB helps out. Aren't you the anti-MB person?

Felix, what level is your Inferno? Honestly, if someone who's got a high level Inferno is saying it's useful, and someone with level 1 Inferno says it's useless...

Personally, I could see myself using Inferno alot in 4th job if I was a Bowmaster. It delivers superior DPM on larger mobs, not to mention it's easier than ARing. AR may do 10% more damage, but later on, the time it would take to get close enough would probably outweigh the benefits of 10% damage. Personally, I use Blizzard on large mobs, because AE is too pot consuming, and IronArrow doesn't curve, so it's not useful in every situation. I wish I had Inferno =/

Honestly, of all the skills I have, I use AE the least XD
(Not including 1st job skills, but yes-including PKB)

But, what do I know, I'm just a Sniper =P

@Kaida
Until such a time that my MB KB's with every hit, I'll continue to use PKB. Until that time, it's more effective for me to PKB, rather than wait for a MB to KB.

Hey KaidaTan. It's nice to hear from another experienced Bowmaster. *high fives*

Yeah, I went with Phoenix after the core skills. I was bouncing back and forth for quite a while, though. I'm very happy I went with Phoenix. Concentrate's great and I can see that it's going to be awesome in the places I'll use it. However, Phoenix has just made my two biggest passions in this game (bossing and questing) so much more fun. Concentrate won't have that effect.

I haven't clocked exact numbers in a while. I do remember that my usual SKPT (with a 15x Bishop and a 14x Bowmaster) netted me about 10m/hour. I remember my backup Peak party (16x Hero and leeching HS mule) netted me about 1-2% less an hour than my usual SKPT did. I think the last time I solo'd Peak was when I was 15x. If I remember correctly, I was getting 2%/hour (however much that is at that level, I can't remember). Why are your exp/hour's so low? That seems really bad. o_o

Phoenix isn't really usable at Newties. :/ That's only one of the reasons I don't like them anymore, though. They're crowded and full of idiots. Plus, I got tired of the style of training there. I dunno, they're just not for me.

I can't use Phoenix after the Legs + Tail because Bera groups are really anti-summons in HT. It's pretty stupid, but I'm not one to cause a scene over something little like that. Heck, the Zak group I'm helping right now doesn't even let me use Phoenix. Now that's just retarded, and I'm tiring of it. If Phoenix truly does cause you lag (which it doesn't), get the heck off MS and upgrade your pile of garbage!

---

Skipping Arrow Rain = you're an idiot.
Taking any points out of Arrow Rain = you're an idiot.

~_~ @ everyone who doesn't see or know how godly MB is.

---

I have level 1 Inferno, of course. I wish it was 0, but I just had to be cool and see the pretty fire. *sigh* I chose to go Infernoless before I even knew of a single 4th job skill. I made the decision early, and I stuck with it through everything. Back before 4th job, everyone was all like, "HECK YEAH! INFERNO!" And I was like, "You're gonna regret that. MB is a much better choice." After 4th job comes out, "WTH? WHY DID I CHOOSE INFERNO? ;_;" Me: "HECK YEAH! MB!"

Foresight. It's a wonderful thing.

Hey KaidaTan. It's nice to hear from another experienced Bowmaster. *high fives*

I haven't clocked exact numbers in a while. I do remember that my usual SKPT (with a 15x Bishop and a 14x Bowmaster) netted me about 10m/hour. I remember my backup Peak party (16x Hero and leeching HS mule) netted me about 1-2% less an hour than my usual SKPT did. I think the last time I solo'd Peak was when I was 15x. If I remember correctly, I was getting 2%/hour (however much that is at that level, I can't remember). Why are your exp/hour's so low? That seems really bad. o_o

My mistake. I meant 1.7m and 2m exp per 10 minutes, respectively. That means 10.2m exp an hour at Skeles and 12m an hour at Newts. I timed both of them twice and I got the exact same amount each time.

I see what you mean about Conc/Phoenix though. Using Phoenix over Hawk definitely makes you feel like you're more in 4th job than Concentrate, which is more passive. Conc is pretty damn useful though.

If Phoenix truly does cause you lag (which it doesn't), get the heck off MS and upgrade your pile of garbage!

Massive agree.

BTW, was the "Screw the rules, I have money!" thing right?

Okay, that makes much more sense. I was getting worried you two were training with melee weapons and whacking the Skeles to death. Since my training partners have basically quit MS, I have no idea when I'll be able to clock exact amounts. I really have no one to train with anymore.

Yes, you're right. ^_^b lol

MB is great... no denying that...

and myst if your MB isnt' "working" is because it isn't maxed...
i had 11 MB at 120 and maxed hawk, *just because i did not do the leveling for the last 3 levels myself... which i regretted GREATLY* and it was absolute crap... almost half of the time, a hurricane arrow who can't KB the monster barely 10% of the time and it comes too close, i would bow whack... which was VERY annoying... not only it stops you from firing, but you have to stop and step back and turn around and shoot again to have it in your face 2 seconds later again... PKB it? didn't work...

and maxed hawk? honestly i see ABSOLUTELY NO difference to my lvl 21 hawk AT ALL

but after spending ~85k nx *yes it was a fortune but i don't regret spending all that* to reset 9 points from hawk into MB, i absolutely LOVE it

the same situation as before, spamming hurricane, mob comes close, BAM BAM 10k, 11k, monster dies, keeps firing hurricane... and finishes off the rest <3

so obviously MB is a must have... i'm not hungry for speed, so thrust isn't important... so where to take points out? most logical place... hawk...

maxed inferno is just an awesome bonus i get from the points leftover and i LOVE it

it's not because you don't use it everywhere that it's useless... if you're creative enough, you can find the use of it almost anywhere, with some exceptions of course...

These threads always confuse me like hell, lol. I don't believe anything to be 'useless', so I find myself mentally agreeing with everyone, yet somewhere a ranger has to make a choice. And I don't bother getting a standpoint on any side, since as a sniper one can just put 20 in Eagle and 21 in Blizzard and get basically everything else.

I'm just going to say that they're all pretty nice to have (except excess hawk. seriously)

....It's nice to hear from another experienced Bowmaster...

[COLOR="Navy"]you implying that i dont know what i'm talking about? o.0

it's just a different view. if i had a choice right now, and a pile of NX, i'd reset out of strafe and finish MB and get more thrust. i love high passive move speed, helps so much in training (except at newts, but... i'm leaving them when i hit 140...30% to go...), and mb just cause. i keep getting ridiculed by the "high level" archers cause i "only" have 15. i've never really complained about it, a higher activation rate won't make me wet my pants or anything. it does what it needs to do, and it does it well considering how rarely i encounter minimum range while training.

i still think inferno is a great skill, but it's use in current end game maps is limited. it only really shines at peak. i am hoping that cwk interior or time temple changes this, though. (i think it was hinted that pages/mages get more out of the interior of cwk than the other classes, so element weak things, probably wrong though...)

i swear the problem is archers have dump points in 1st and 2nd job, and not enough for 3rd at all. if we could save points across the advance i doubt there'd be a single person that didn't max all the ranger skills.

imo all you need from 3rd is hawk, puppet and 15+mb. AR sees less use as hurricane takes over, strafe gets replaced basically right from 120, and phoenix takes over from hawk after... 50+ levels (90~160, in my case). thrust, like normally said, is optional, but speed saves lives. dodging a skele beam or outrunning a pap bomb or outrunning crow/anego and NOT losing 7% is, imo, well worth the SP that can be taken from something else. NX does affect playing style, so not everyone will have a pet for speed or autohp, or is willing to buy charms and therefore a more conservative playstyle.
[/COLOR]

you implying that i dont know what i'm talking about? o.0

No, actually. Everyone's opinions and beliefs are their own. There isn't a "wrong" side to this big debate. MS is the kind of game you can really do whatever the heck you want and still get by if you truly want to.

But experience is experience and the only way to get it is to achieve it yourself. No one else in this thread could relate to everything I've been saying (at least not completely) because they've never been to that point. In fact, you're the one that pointed out my comments are the way they are because of how fast I can kill monsters at my level. My only objective in saying the line you quoted was to acknowledge the fact that it was nice to finally hear from someone that can understand exactly what I've been saying. I didn't mean to belittle any other person's contributions to this thread, and I'm sorry if you took it that way.

Lol Iced, you started sounding like Bluebomber near the end.

NO archer skills are useless =P Cuase we're just that awesome xD

But I have hated this dilema for a long while. It's always (for rangers at least) hawk, mortal blow, inferno, thrust. one of the most difficult decisions to make in the archer's career. I'll keep the 99% stun rate of hawk (level 29) and max mortal blow, leaving 0 thrust and 22 inferno. I personally don't care too much for passive speed, sure it's good to have, but i haven't the slightest clue about the workings of higher levels (only 105 D=) From my experience, I need the 99% stun rate of hawk. I think inferno looks cool.

Thrust just seems annoying to me... But i could have regrets later, but for now, no regrets of my build to come =)

On a side note, 22 Inferno is actually the best damage against fire-resistant mobs, like Gobies.

I'm not sure whether that was calculated with 0.5 or 0.75 element disadvantage though; if it's the former, then that's an outdated figure and max is really the best in any situation. I just know that at one point it was 22.

I'd think Arrow Bomb is better if it's not outdated =P

If it's not outdated, that's actually better for Inferno. 0.75 > 0.5

lol well i forgot to mention my lolfail 2nd job build...

yes i did the incredible noob thing and got 12 into FA. I have neither the skills nor NX to reset those points... (maxed everything else cept booster ><")

so in my 4th job, bomb will rarley be used for me, and it seems i won't be using inferno either ...

So what are you gonna do next Felix? Max Phoenix or start on Conc? I really do recommend Conc especially if you Anego/Pap a lot.

So what are you gonna do next Felix? Max Phoenix or start on Conc? I really do recommend Conc especially if you Anego/Pap a lot.

I have 6 points saved right now and next level I'll save another 3 so that I can get MW to 19 if I ever somehow manage to get a chance to use a MW20 mastery book. Who knows when. Lol

After that, I'm going to max Phoenix and then start on Concentrate. Heck, I have no idea when I'll get to train again, though. Everyone abandoned me. ;_;

I have 6 points saved right now and next level I'll save another 3 so that I can get MW to 19 if I ever somehow manage to get a chance to use a MW20 mastery book. Who knows when. Lol

After that, I'm going to max Phoenix and then start on Concentrate. Heck, I have no idea when I'll get to train again, though. Everyone abandoned me. ;_;

Should come to Windia. We have MW20 spilling out our asses. I have no one to train with either since Carlos got hacked.

B> Pirates

I'd think Arrow Bomb is better if it's not outdated =P

You're forgetting the huge disadvantage of stun causing gobies to fall to the bottom.

If it's not outdated, that's actually better for Inferno. 0.75 > 0.5

As I recall, .75 is only possible for attacks with 2 elements (Comp) where the monster is only resistant to one of them. so then the figure would be .5. :/

Should come to Windia. We have MW20 spilling out our asses. I have no one to train with either since Carlos got hacked.

B> Pirates

Pirates will mean even less people. XD
eh though, Pirates aren't as exciting as everyone expects.

You're forgetting the huge disadvantage of stun causing gobies to fall to the bottom.

I meant pure DPS on Fire-Strong mobs =P

As I recall, .75 is only possible for attacks with 2 elements (Comp) where the monster is only resistant to one of them. so then the figure would be .5. :/

Actually, Inferno and Blizzard have a halved Elemental Advantage/Resistance. Max is 1.25 on Fire-Weak, .75 on Fire-Resistant (for Inferno, replace Fire with Ice for Blizzard).
Russt just doesn't know whether the tests that showed Inferno at optimal efficiency vs Fire-Resistant monsters was done with the outdated knowledge that it was .5 damage, or the more recently aqcuired data of it being .75

Edit: It's outdated. Inferno level 30 is 142.5% Average Damage per hit on Fire-Resistant, while level 22 is 136.7% =P