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+---- Thread: Thrust. (/showthread.php?tid=3424)
Thrust. - GotchaHoe - 2008-09-15
Well, I love speed and since most guides don't tell you to add thrust I had this question. What if I sacrificed 20 inferno for 20 Thrust? would that be bad? I mean, You don't need inferno once you're a bow master, do you?
Thrust. - EngelRod - 2008-09-15
Well it would be better if you could get a mount, but that is up to you.
Thrust. - Dusk - 2008-09-15
I'm a Bowmaster, and Inferno is my 2nd most used active skill (after Hurricane, of course). I can't imagine how people can get by without using it at all. It depends on your training style, and where you train, I suppose. I'd get at least 16 Inferno for luring purposes, and personally I think Thrust is a useless skill (I didn't put any points into it). I get by with 112 speed, the very cheap speed pills, and a mount. I like being able to control my speed, and sometimes having more than 120 is annoying. Anyway, I'd say that there are definitely a couple of places where you'll be hitting yourself for not having Inferno, but at the same time you can train to 200 without a point in it.
If you're sure you don't need Inferno, put those points in Mortal Blow, not Thrust.
Hell, I'd take 20 points out of Arrow Rain, first - about the only time I use that skill at Newties is to get some damage in as I run away after looting.
Thrust. - Sn1perJohnE - 2008-09-15
at 120, before the job advance, you should have enough SP to max every skill, and have 21 points for either thrust or inferno. This includes maxing MB, Hawk, Strafe, Rain, and Puppet. With a higher lvl bow/xbow, you should get at least 10 speed, and possibly 2~5 speed from equips other than bow/xbow. With 10 thrust, you get an extra 20 speed. That gives you a total of 132~135 speed, just 5 from having haste speed. Beyond lvl 10, you only get 1 speed per point into thrust. But 10 is really the recomended amount to put in if you are going to. For me, I plan to stick the extra 10 points ill have into either inferno, or to max focus, or possibly PKB and some into focus.
Thrust. - Kevvl - 2008-09-15
21 Inferno is a horrible idea though. It's not good for damage at that point, and range is increased at 16 =/
Thrust. - Dusk - 2008-09-15
You should already have max PKB and focus. If you're going to get more than 16 Inferno, you should max it. 21 Inferno is a waste of 5 points, because the whole point of Inferno is high damage forward mobbing.
Thrust. - FelixTM - 2008-09-15
I absolutely do not understand how people use Inferno...at all. To me, it's a completely worthless skill. I have never, ever used it, and I have never encountered a time where it would have been nice to have. All I need is Hurricane and Arrow Rain. <3 Besides throwing in a few support skills (like Puppet, Phoenix and DB), using any other attacks during training is simply a waste of time.
If people wanna mix Inferno into their training somehow, go for it. It's always gonna be a huge waste of points in my eyes.
Oh! And I love Thrust, because I can not live without at least +20 Speed at all times. It's a god send and really makes your life much easier!
Thrust. - spiritrival - 2008-09-15
EngelRod Wrote:Well it would be better if you could get a mount, but that is up to you.Mounts only work for long-ish distances. However, you'll end up bumping into newly spawned monsters in the way and it takes about 2 seconds to mount and dismount. Mounts do not cover for passive speed.
Thrust. - Dusk - 2008-09-15
It replaces Arrow Bomb in 95% of the situations you used to use Arrow Bomb in 2nd job. I don't know why that seems useless. Maybe Hurricane might look flashier when taking down large mobs, but Inferno is still the superior skill to use.
spiritrival Wrote:Mounts only work for long-ish distances. However, you'll end up bumping into newly spawned monsters in the way and it takes about 2 seconds to mount and dismount. Mounts do not cover for passive speed.Well, we're archers. How often do you find yourself needing to move short distances while attacking? And why do you need a lot of speed if you're not going to move long distances?
Oh, and something I neglected to mention thus far. Dragon Breath makes Inferno even better than it was in 3rd job, because setting up mobs becomes much easier. A typical combo I use at Peak is:
Dragon Breath ->
Puppet <-
Inferno until dead ->
And if you're fighting mobs that don't have long ranged attacks, like Skelegons, you don't even need that Puppet.
Thrust. - FelixTM - 2008-09-15
Dusk Wrote:It replaces Arrow Bomb in 95% of the situations you used to use Arrow Bomb in 2nd job. I don't know why that seems useless. Maybe Hurricane might look flashier when taking down large mobs, but Inferno is still the superior skill to use.
4th job itself makes Arrow Bomb obsolete. I took it off my keys shortly after I advanced to Bowmaster (took off Arrow Blow and PKB, too). I was able to start at Newties right away when they came out, as a BM. Using anything but Hurricane + Hawk at Newties is awfully pointless. I threw in Arrow Rain a few times, but Arrow Bomb or Inferno would have just been slow. Newties easily and quickly carried me into the 14x levels, which is when I was able to pimp up my training to SKPTs.
Using Arrow Bomb or Inferno for anything other than a (waste of time) lure would be silly. There are never mobs of more than 3-4 in a regular party, unless you stop killing for a while or something. Heck, even training with 1-hit Bishops doesn't produce spawn fast enough to get ahead of me. Using Hurricane is much easier and more effective in SKPTs. I just bounce from one target to the next to the next, etc.
I'm an extremely melee-style Bowmaster. I hate "safe spot" or "standing still" sniping. I like being reckless and crazy! My training heavily incorporates Mortal Blow, with an extra spice of Arrow Rain. I can kill Skeles so fast that it'd be wasteful to ever stop moving. I'm always walking and Hurricane-tapping back and forth while training. Since I'm always moving, I'm often in MB range of monsters (whether it be getting close to them or having them spawn near me) and use the MB + Hurricane combo to increase my killing speed and style. If mobs ever do build up on/around me, I'm usually already in them anyways! It'd be wasteful to try gathering the mob with DB and then Infernoing them or whatever. I can mow down an entire mob with Arrow Rain in a couple seconds while only getting hit 0-2 times. I rarely (very rarely) use Dragon's Breath. I never use horizontal luring attacks like Inferno/Arrow Bomb.
If fast and furious training means more pots, so be it! It's a heckuva lot more fun than being all tidy and building mobs and trying to avoid getting hit by staying away from monsters. I avoid being hit by killing them before they can even react (or taking advantage of my high avoid, hehe). ;D
Thrust. - Derimed - 2008-09-15
This question was discussed a bunch of times. Inferno is good, but most I've met think it is not so good in 4th job. Thrust, on the other hand, is good in 4th job. Yes, I know equipment can replace points in thrust, but I'd rather have everything scrolled to give more Dex points than speed. Inferno does have a purpose not fulfilled by AR or Strafe, but you can make 4th job wihtout it. I'd personally recommend max Thrust and 1 in Inferno. That way, you also end up maxing ALL 3rd job skills other than Inferno, and avoid the eternal questions of Hawk v. Puppet, etc.
Thrust. - Dusk - 2008-09-15
@Felix:
Funny, I also consider myself a very "in the fray" Bowmaster, and I still find MB almost useless. My training style involves a lot of interchanging jump-DBs with either Hurricane or Inferno, and placing a Puppet whenever the situation gets too bad. I rely on jump-shots and careful positioning (which is near impossible if you have too much speed) to avoid activating MB. Large mobs build up very easily at Peak.
I hardly ever use Arrow Rain in 4th job training spots, Dragon Breath has largely replaced the need for it. You don't have to wait for monsters to spawn to build mobs; you just need to assume a position to the side of a mob and blast it into a group. It's become so that jump-Raining is how I lure monsters to me, and Arrow Rain has no other purpose.
Edit: I don't get how you make MB+Hurricane actually work. I purposely try to activate it at Himes and the like and it just does a regular-speed MB a couple of times before I swing with my bow. So I go back to luring with Rain and Infernoing.
Thrust. - FelixTM - 2008-09-15
Newties would be much better exp than Peak at 12x-13x. High speed Peak parties (two 15x+ people splitting) with a non-leeching HS mule are comparable to SKPTs, but they're still not as good. Slow/regular speed Peak parties shouldn't compare to Newties. Solo Peak is horrible compared to any party, and it's pathetic total exp until you can efficiently cycle the whole map quickly. Solo Peak cycling is also very dangerous (impossible?) at 12x. I don't really understand why you're training there, but I guess that's besides the point.
When I split Peak with a friend, I train identically to how I train on the bottom plat of a SKPT. Arrow Rain when a mob builds up. Hurricane 90% of the rest of the time. When I solo Peak, I cycle around the map clockwise. It's extremely fast-paced, and it goes like this:
![[Image: solopeakmodelno0.jpg]](http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/2888/solopeakmodelno0.jpg)
My training is always focused on speed and continually moving, but different strokes for different folks!
Thrust. - Dusk - 2008-09-15
Split with a DrK and a Bishop, both around my level. Not bad exp, better than the typical JNPT with some 11x Sniper/Ice Mage and a 12x NL. And a Priest.
Oh, and instead of killing the monsters where they are with Rain, I DB them together and begin with Inferno. Inferno does outdamage Hurricane on large mobs (I think at least 4 once Hurricane is maxed (have to run calculations again, but for sure on Fire-weaks), and definitely as my Hurricane is still level 1).
I've only trained 30% of a level since August, though, so I'm not the expert on training at the moment. I just use Inferno a lot.
Thrust. - Kevvl - 2008-09-15
Dusk Wrote:Split with a DrK and a Bishop, both around my level. Not bad exp, better than the typical JNPT with some 11x Sniper/Ice Mage and a 12x NL. And a Priest.
Oh, and instead of killing the monsters where they are with Rain, I DB them together and begin with Inferno. Inferno does outdamage Hurricane on large mobs (I think at least 4 once Hurricane is maxed (have to run calculations again, but for sure on Fire-weaks), and definitely as my Hurricane is still level 1).
I've only trained 30% of a level since August, though, so I'm not the expert on training at the moment. I just use Inferno a lot.
I did the calculations a while ago, and while I can't find the numbers; maxed Hurricane vs. Maxed Inferno on nuetral monsters, Inferno is better on mobs of 5 (With maxed SE). On Fire-Weak, it's mobs of 4+. 16 Hurricane is the cutoff point for where Inferno is weaker on mobs of 4.
Thrust. - spiritrival - 2008-09-15
Dusk Wrote:Well, we're archers. How often do you find yourself needing to move short distances while attacking? And why do you need a lot of speed if you're not going to move long distances?A lot. I sometimes knockback Voodoos out of my range and have to move to keep up with them. I also use my Hog when I happen to be on the far side of the map and all the Voodoos are on the opposite end. It really varies for the training spots. But the way I see it, extra Speed doesn't hurt.
Thrust. - Dusk - 2008-09-15
Oh, hog is next to useless at Voodoos. The map is too small for it to matter. The best experience on that map is standing still and spamming Rain, to be honest.
Most 4th job training spots don't require much Rain, though.
Thrust. - summer - 2008-09-15
newtie newtie and more newtie...
seriously is that where everyone lives these days? ALL you do is newtie all day? what's the fun in that?!?
personally i don't find myself at newties at all anymore.. *actually i don't train at all neither...*
i agree with lakemyst in the part that inferno is my second *maybe 3rd* most used skill... but i disagree with him on MB being AWESOMELY good especially coupled with hurricane... hawk imho is useless past 21... and i stand by my opinions no matter what anyone else says, because that's the most effective for my playing style
*and i think it's a given i don't have thrust... i find bonus speed utterly useless in everyday situations... because silver mane > anything in long distance speed, not including teleport and FJ of course because i don't have that... and i REALLY hate the extra speed when climbing orbis/eos/helios towers...*
and yes, inferno 21 is worse than inferno 16 with 5 thrust, because you lose the 10 speed for unmaxed skill that doesn't do much more than its lvl 16 counterpart...
either leave it at 1, 16 or max it... don't stop at 21... dump the rest in thrust/MB/hawk
my order of uselessness for the last few points in 3rd job:
last 9 points of hawk
any point in thrust
last 1-2 points from strafe
last 1-2 points from rain
last 1-2 points from inferno
last 2 points from puppet
mortal blow
Thrust. - Kevvl - 2008-09-15
^Myst never said that he used MB alot, that was Felix =P
I'm getting 10 Thrust, because eventually I'll be scrolling shoes with Jump, so I can have both maxed ;D
Thrust. - Worthyness - 2008-09-15
Meh Ima go with my build of 29 hawk, 20 mortal blow, 22 inferno =)
Thrust i ssee as a luxury. Not really necessary, but nice to have. I haven't used inferno much, but for showing off... I might have used it more if they kept the fricken burn-the-field function it used to have. Or if they added a poison-esque burn function like Gunslingers...