Thrust.

I think with MB's new 90% activation rate, it's too good to pass up. Before that change was made, I had planned on skipping out on maxing it, but now I can't imagine that.

One thing I just can't rationalize is wasting precious skill points on something that can be easily obtained by careful choice in equipment. For example, shell out a bit of extra money for the metus or Dark arund. Use speed pills. Party with a hermit. Hop on the mount. Really I can't see why anyone would want to have no choice in their speed. There are some areas where having extra speed can hamper your movement (Aqua and Nath come to mind, though you can certainly adjust.)

I also can't see passing up on what is essentially our only elemental skill. There's always the possibility that some amazing fire-weak area may arise (Time Temple's ice zone, perhaps?) and not having it would leave you ill-prepared.

last 9 points of hawk
any point in thrust
last 1-2 points from strafe
last 1-2 points from rain
last 1-2 points from inferno
last 2 points from puppet
mortal blow

I don't understand... is that in decreasing order of uselessness or what?

Does that mean you'd sooner take out points from Strafe/Rain/Inferno/Puppet than unmax MB?

Oh and on the topic of speed, I don't understand the point about having no "control" over your speed. I've climbed towers with 140% speed perfectly fine. It's the jump that does it, honestly. Aqua Road I can understand, but as Isaac said you can adjust, and once you adjust you end up moving around that much faster. El Nath, meh, who trains in El Nath? And anyway, I can't stand Nath without extra speed, the slowed acceleration kills me.

^Myst never said that he used MB alot, that was Felix =P


I'm getting 10 Thrust, because eventually I'll be scrolling shoes with Jump, so I can have both maxed ;D

Gl scrolling, im still dieing to get a +4 or +5 speed shoe with only jump scrolls :O +3 is still good atm tho :/

I think with MB's new 90% activation rate, it's too good to pass up. Before that change was made, I had planned on skipping out on maxing it, but now I can't imagine that.

One thing I just can't rationalize is wasting precious skill points on something that can be easily obtained by careful choice in equipment. For example, shell out a bit of extra money for the metus or Dark arund. Use speed pills. Party with a hermit. Hop on the mount. Really I can't see why anyone would want to have no choice in their speed. There are some areas where having extra speed can hamper your movement (Aqua and Nath come to mind, though you can certainly adjust.)

I also can't see passing up on what is essentially our only elemental skill. There's always the possibility that some amazing fire-weak area may arise (Time Temple's ice zone, perhaps?) and not having it would leave you ill-prepared.

Arunds are too weak. I'd have to get my hands on something like a 112-115 Arund, and then I'd have to lower my Str to fully optimize it. That's gay. I'm not spending all that meso and real life monies. Metuses (eseseseseses wat) are a bit better, but they're still in the same boat. Plus they're freakin' ugly.

Yeah, I could go with a Dark Nisrock. But, A) I worship the Gold Nisrock - it completes me B) Dark Nisrocks with att similar to my Gold are uber hard to find and just not worth the extra mesos.

Having level 10 Thrust gives me the freedom to do what I want, without having to do the stupid things you suggested. LOL Speed Pills, no thanks. Party with a NL? WAT? The only time I party with those nibs is during boss runs. F3 Hop on a mount? Yeah, I use my Mane all the time. But my spikey butt hoggy just can't be used every single moment I'm on MS, sadly. Speed is never a hindrance, unless you fail or something. >_> Aqua is way better with Speed. Heck, this whole game is unbearable without at least 120% Speed! I have the need for speed, baby! Fast, fast, faster!

Inferno sucks hardcore and the argument about "IT MAY BE USEFUL SOMEDAY!" is just silly. Haha Hurricane's always gonna rape its sorry butt, like it or not. Even if Inferno is statistically "better" than Hurricane on large mobs, I guarantee the little bit of time you save using Inferno on that rare large mob won't affect a thing. I'll still be killing just as fast overall by using only Hurricane and Arrow Rain. Thanks.

Inferno supporters seem to be neglecting Phoenix, as well. I haven't used my Hawk at all (heck, I don't even carry Summoning Rocks anymore) since I got my Phoenix over level 21. Phoenix + Arrow Rain = destroys any mob in a second or two. And yeah, Phoenix is Fire elemental. So even if there is some magically godly place that is like built for the Fire element with delicious mobs everywhere, I'll still be able to perform there just as well as anyone.

Hurricane + Arrow Rain (+ Phoenix) = All a Bowmaster needs for destroying any training spot with ease.

god... now i want to become a bowmaster faster D=

I still think Inferno looks awesome regardless of the statistics =P

Doesn't Inferno level 21+ beat arrow bomb anyway?

Doesn't Inferno level 21+ beat arrow bomb anyway?

Easily.

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felix, i assume you're 17X, at least. which means that most of what you say about training comes from the fact that things you point your character at dies within a fraction of a second.

Rangers can't say that, and most BM's can't either, as for some reason we get stuck in the 12X~13X range.

I don't use inferno while training at newts, nor at skeles. the mobs simply don't form large enough to do that. at himes, i ABUSE inferno, it's my primary attack skill. and at peak you can get a mob of 8+ easy if you can't decimate with hurricane (like most 14X there, they have a bit of trouble with all the nests at the bottom, and have to resort to DB+puppet+inferno combos or DB+puppet+bomb to aid with mob support, hurricane will NOT suffice and will cause deaths.)

inferno WILL be invaluable at ice temple, along with phoenix, which is currently almost worthless. inferno is good for questing, along with AR. AR itself doesn't see much use in 4th job, it mainly gets used as a lure. only place i actually use AR to kill is vikings when i'm doing the soul collector quest cause it's right beside pap =P

i'm kind of an in-the-fray type bowmaster, but i still think i play different than you. i utilize DB+puppet on anything past mob size 3, and inferno on anything 5 or higher (only peak or himes). AR scares me for training, i hate it for that, and wonder why on god's green earth everyone recommends it. it's useful before your end game training spots, but that's about it. it's only good for ~30 levels...

oh and MB has killed me more often than it's saved me. go figure that one out.
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I'm 163. But yeah, monsters pretty much die when I blink at them. F3

I'm just gonna mash your whole post together and throw in a few of my comments and thoughts. First off, Phoenix isn't worthless - not by a long shot. Anyone who says that hasn't gotten past 15x-17x and leveled it to 21-30. Phoenix completely replaced Hawk for me (once it was 21+). It's a great companion for training and bossing and an excellent companion for questing. I'll explain!

Training: SKPTs: Heck yeah. Phoenix is great for luring the Skeles behind me (or any I'm not focusing on yet) and getting them to come towards/stay near me so I can kill them when I'm ready. Phoenix is great for improving your natural "stop" reaction to killing monsters. I've killed so many Skeles that my body naturally knows when to let go of the button. Probably 9 out of 10 times I apply Hurricane for exactly the right duration to kill a Skele, with very little overshooting. Phoenix helps with that considerably, because he removes the error factor of letting go too early. My natural stop time improved with Phoenix helping me, no doubt.

Bossing: Even though my Phoenix is not yet maxed (level 25), he still contributes a nice amount of damage to boss runs. At Zak, he does the neutral hit damage of about 8k-10k. Phoenix helps lure and kill the non-ice (why are they resistant to fire anyways ?!) mobs, as well. He isn't a bad thing to have at the HT prelim heads, either. Obviously he can not be used during the main HT fight, though. At Anego, Phoenix is really great because now he OHKOs all the mobs around her, giving me a clean path and increased focus to rape her. At Bigfoot, Phoenix helps me kill faster and keeps the annoying mobs off me. I only use Phoenix during the second body of Pap (pointless during the first) as a fail safe. If you accidentally get pinned (hey, crap happens), Phoenix will finish off Pap for you. True story: I made a dumb mistake one time while fighting the second body of Pap and got trapped under it. Phoenix literally killed the rest of Pap for me (over half its HP). <3

Questing: Phoenix does all the work for me. :3 Since almost all quests are at really weak areas, Phoenix honestly does more killing than I do. LOL It makes questing even more easy and relaxed, which is excellent. I can walk around just about anywhere and Phoenix keeps the path cleared for me. It's like having a butler who sweeps the ground in front of me everywhere I walk!

Second, I'm only the ridiculously reckless Bowmaster that I am because I have Auto HP Potion on my kitty cats. My style drastically changed once I got it. I'll jump into just about anything and AR away. Screw the pots, I have money! (catch the reference and win 10 points, btw) I highly recommend it for any Bowmaster. It's some of the best money you can spend in the Cash Shop. Seriously.

Closing remarks:

The Ice area in the Time Temple won't be amazing. It's not going to be anything more than an alternate training spot with worse exp/hour than Leafre. I'm sorry. ;_;

Himes suck.

IcedFire brings up a good point. Felix is at the point where he can attack mobs in ways that someone my level or 13x can't even attempt. If I leaped into a mob of Skelegons and started spamming Arrow Rain, I'd burn half the pots in my inventory before they died. I opt to DB them to either side of me, Puppet, and Inferno one side before attacking the other. The same goes for a large mob of anything to one side. Inferno isn't just statistically more powerful in that case, it's absolutely necessary to keep them from running me over. Even if I had max Hurricane, I'd still need the mob KB to hold them back.

And haha, Phoenix + AR =/= Phoenix + Inferno on fire-weak mobs. I like Phoenix and I think it's useful, but a Fire-elemental familiar doesn't replace a partially Fire-elemental mob attack.

Himes only suck for you because you don't have maxed Inferno.

And why LOL Speed Pills? I've been carrying a stack of 100 in my inventory since level 3x. That's enough for almost 17 hours of training and the stack only costs 50k.

Obviously. But I got through 12x, 13x and 14x very fast by simply training in normal 2-3 attacker split Newtie parties. If people want Inferno to train at alternate places in alternate ways for less exp/hour and higher pot cost, go for it. This game really is just about having fun. I'm not bashing that.

I never said Phoenix + AR = Phoenix + Inferno. I said I'll be able to perform just as well, using my normal training techniques. I'd be happy to do a comparative exp/hour challenge against a Bowmaster (similar to my level) who has maxed Inferno, if such a place ever does come out. However, such a place won't ever come out. And the difference would not be worth 30 points.

Himes suck because their exp/hour + pot cost is nothing compared to what I can net at SKPTs, JNPTs and a good Peak party. Tengu's there, as well. Go die, ugly! F5 @ Tengu

I like the freedom of not having to waste another space in my Use. I like the freedom of not having to keep another buff up. I used Speed Pills all the time during 3rd job (when they came out), but I got tired of relying on a stupid buff to have my required moving speed. It got to the point where if I didn't have one, I felt slow and ended up using one to walk like a few minutes. LOL That's just silly.

It got to the point where if I didn't have one, I felt slow and ended up using one to walk like a few minutes. LOL That's just silly.

Don't you have a mount? I only use Speed Pills when I'm training in a place where more speed would be advantageous and I'm not partied with a NL.

Don't you have a mount? I only use Speed Pills when I'm training in a place where more speed would be advantageous and I'm not partied with a NL.

Mounts did not exist back in 2006 and 2007.

And now I have level 10 Thrust, so the need for Speed Pills is completely gone. Thrust covers me for training. Spikey butt hoggy covers me for walking.

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i meant worthless as in... it takes 50+ levels to replace hawk.

phoenix >>> hawk at bosses, without a doubt. BF it help w/ wraiths, anego it helps with summons (if you wanna be a goof and pin it to the right...so much easier to bring it to the left like i do. invincibility abuse ftw!), pap it auto kills the 2nd form (level 1 does like 1/8th~1/6th his hp if you're just chilling, so not too bad), zak it's like a free arrow.

questing wise, that's the only reason i use AR. seriously. i'm too lazy to turn left and right cause phoenix will only turn and attack one way.

phoenix is my lovely companion, and if i'm not at newts or skeles, i'll train with it (lvl 1). newts seems to rely on passive stun from hawk cause they're autoaggro, whereas skeles it doesn't really help as much cause it makes them angry at me and buff themselves f4. phoenix at elderwraiths is awesome, and at some other maps that are "trainable" while screwing around phoenix performs well also.

edit - oh and himes suck anyway. i was only there to help get my priest friend to 120. she actually reduced my pph from newts :O
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Well, of course I could see the case for Thrust before mounts existed. But I've learned to use my mount well enough (which is to be expected, because I've had mine since Day 1 of them coming out) that I rarely find myself wanting more than the 22 speed I have with a speed pill.

Speaking of which, I need to put together the funds so I can get a Mane.

Well, of course I could see the case for Thrust before mounts existed. But I've learned to use my mount well enough (which is to be expected, because I've had mine since Day 1 of them coming out) that I rarely find myself wanting more than the 22 speed I have with a speed pill.

Speaking of which, I need to put together the funds so I can get a Mane.

Seriously. My spikey butt and I have this bond that goes much deeper than father and son. We're connected. He trusts me; I trust him. He knows when I call him out as I run towards a mob of Skeles, everything is going to be alright. He knows when I call him out when Pap goes into his little coward shell, that I'm just running to the other side to recast Puppet.

I love you spikey butt hoggy. *manly tear*

I have 123% Speed (20 from Thrust, 3 from overall), by the way. I may love Speed, but I have no desire to maintain it any higher than 120%. If and when I switch to a Timeless Bow, then I guess that extra Speed will be cool, too. I would never give up my Golden Sexrock for any other bow, though. <3

Well, of course I could see the case for Thrust before mounts existed. But I've learned to use my mount well enough (which is to be expected, because I've had mine since Day 1 of them coming out) that I rarely find myself wanting more than the 22 speed I have with a speed pill.

Speaking of which, I need to put together the funds so I can get a Mane.

That's probably the issue here, because we've all "Grown up" with mounts and we're used to using them for anything we need. Heck, a lot of times in KMS when I play my infighter I press the mount key and leap into the air, only to remember I don't have a mount in KMS and go plummeting back. XD I hop on the mount just to make 1 jump and catch the rope and get off. The animation barely takes any time at all in reality and it's nice to be able to just use it when you need it.

I use a speed pill all the time and don't see a problem with it :/ It's not common for me to burn up my entire "use" inventory worth of pots in the time my etc. fills anyway (I can do about 2 slots of etc. per 1 slot of hp pots) so the extra speed is useful.

I guess WKs don't have thrust though


anyway I meant to ask if it's possible to skip AR in favour of Inferno, or if there are range/map reasons not to (I think squids and gobies might be fire-resistant? Know they're not weak to it)

@Russt
you got it right... the top of the list is what i'm more willing to give up more than the ones on the bottom...

i seriously can't live with anything but maxed MB now... especially in the middle of spamming hurricane... even when monsters come close, i just keep holding the key and 2-3 MB should finish it off in about the same time as half a second of hurricane... and it's KB ability is INSANE! i do 6k+ non-crit and some crits can go up to 13k! *with SE of course* *only skill that has damage coming close to the inferno on fire weak*

now, i haven't leveled up enough to get DB or phoenix, but that would be the 2 things i'll definitely get next level..

and i believe felix on the part that phoenix > hawk ... because well, i'm not a big fan of hawk in the first place like you can see from my list... i only use it now at newtie and nowhere else... and since i haven't been at newtie, with the exception of casting hawk by accident at HHG... i haven't used hawk at all for 3 months now. but when i do get phoenix, even at lvl 1, i think i will have it out most of the time... mainly because it's free, and who wouldn't want free damage? *other than MP cost of course... but that's minimal*

and "the point of this game is to have fun" ... which is the reason why grinding situations isn't considered in the "fun factor" ...

and like myst mentioned, not because you can kill things oh so easily that we all can... for those of us who can't, and stuck with lvl 1 hurricane for 10+ levels... inferno is unbelievably useful in some situations where hurricane just simply can't manage the mobs...

@stereo, arrow rain is almost necessary... while if you have arrow bomb, inferno isn't all that "have to have" but like some of us here... would prefer inferno over arrow bomb any day... but best is to have both and skip something else

Screw the pots, I have money! (catch the reference and win 10 points, btw)

Yugioh the Abridged Series is where I heard it.

Anyway though, I agree completely with Felix on nearly every point. I have 4 points in Inferno (I meant to have 1, that extra 3 was a mistake) and 17 points in Thrust and it's amazing. I use a Gold Nisrock like Felix, and my base speed is 139 (27 Thrust, 1 shoes, 3 overall, 8 pet). To be fair, I don't really have enough Inferno to check, but I'm quite sure I would never use Inferno anywhere for anything. All the archers I know with Inferno are sad they got it (Lachrymus) because they don't use it. I train at Newties so there are no mobs anyway.

So Felix, you actually went Phoenix eh? I remember deciding on Concentrate when I made that thread on SW, but I don't regret it. I have 22 Concentrate now and I'm working on my Phoenix now; it's currently level 6. I always thought it would be awesome for all the things you said. It's excellent for bossing and does nice damage to speed up your training. Concentrate is a more passive bonus, so I guess I don't feel as cool about it. 6 MP arrows are pretty sweet though. I can buy 2 Cider and kill two paps with Conc and them. When I go to Anego, Cider are only a breath away so I can attack her the whole time with just that and Conc. It's really pretty awesome. Totally worthless at group-bosses though.

By the way, what kind of exp do you get at peak or skeles with your setup, Felix? I used to do the big Skelegon map all the time with an HS mule and another attacker (XBish) and we both got around 1.7m an hour. However, on suggestion from a person in SW, I tried out splitting a Newtie map with him (I took the bottom and he took the middle) and we got 2m an hour. Adding a 3rd attacker at the top didn't change the exp rate at all, either. Though I'd imagine finding a Newtie map consistently in Bera is nearly impossible. Anyway, I bring it up because of how annoying Newties are for Phoenix. I really like Phoenix and I can't wait to get him to 21 but I feel that even if I did it would slow down my training at Newties, the best training I can get. I stand to the right of the leftmost newtie on the bottom and just kill everything as it spawns. Problem is that the way the Newties are spaced makes you waste quite a bit of time if you get hit, so Hawk's stun is invaluable. Give newts a shot and tell me what you think. BTW, why can't you use Phoenix at main HT? I use it all the time after the legs die; it does some pretty decent damage even at level 6.

Sorry, I digressed a bit. Inferno's potential use at a fire weak mob (those Ice-things in Time Temple) will be overshadowed by the stronger mobs or mobs with better spawn. I hear that Time Temple has another expansion that hasn't been released yet. Likely those monsters will be far more worth your time than anything in the Ice section. And besides, even if you you do get slightly better exp there (and god help you for putting up with those 30 worthless points for so long), I'm still 20+ speed faster than you all the time and I maxed MB.

I don't think I'm quite as melee of a fighter as you all claim to be. Skelegons was all about somehow dodging their lasers while killing them at the same time. I usually took the top when I went there, and my partner was quite good at killing the bottom. Spawn flooded me and my usual response is just Hurricane. If there's several on both sides, I'd probably DP both ways, throw down a Puppet, and Hurricane the side opposite Puppet. (As a sidenote, I *love* reverse jump-DPing over one of their lasers. Dodgeable attacks are fun ^_^) Even so, I wasn't afraid to play a little melee when necessary. Such as when you climb to the top platform and there's 6+ Skelegons on it and they're crowding the rope. I'd probably Jump-AR out until I got out of the mob, then turn around to Hurricane them, only stopping to either move back a quarter-step or jump-DPing to avoid their lasers. You can get pretty creative about a lot of it.

Bowmasters are a 1v1 class. Sure we have mob skills, but we are primarily a 1v1 class now. Instead of going far out of your way to use your situationally, marginally stronger mob skill, why not do what we excel best at? Find monster A, shoot until it dies, find monster B, rinse and repeat.

anyway I meant to ask if it's possible to skip AR in favour of Inferno, or if there are range/map reasons not to (I think squids and gobies might be fire-resistant? Know they're not weak to it)

AR is the only skill Bowmasters get that has no minimum range. You'd have to be absolutely insane to skip it. Even in 4th job there are instances where you'll be in a crowd for a while, you know you'll be in a crowd for a while, and you still need to do something about it.

Example: I don't think it would have been possible to solo Zakum without AR. I have an NL friend that actually had to equip a Dagger for a while while he solo'd just to get rid of the summons. It's also important in places such as HT, when a black Wryvern is coming from below you and it needs to be dead. Sure the Bishops are supposed to Genesis when they see Wryverns, but no one's perfect.

anyway I meant to ask if it's possible to skip AR in favour of Inferno, or if there are range/map reasons not to (I think squids and gobies might be fire-resistant? Know they're not weak to it)

Inferno is much more useful than Rain in 4th job, because you are no longer helpless when stuff gets in your face, and things rarely get that close to you anyway, thanks mostly to Dragon Breath, but also to Phoenix and Hamstring (I don't have those skills yet, but I assume it would be reasonable to assume that). I didn't put my first point in Rain until level 90, due to my heavy point investment in Strafe, Inferno and Puppet. It's not a necessary skill by any means, just like Inferno is not necessary. There are enough training spots in 3rd job that you can get by without it.

However, there are still cases were Rain is undeniably useful. You are not always capable of keeping mobs from surrounding you, especially at Typhons, and at Zakum. This is where Rain shines. Arrow Rain is also superior to Inferno in most early-mid 3rd job training spots, such as Pirates and Wolf Spiders. This is why early Rain builds are not nearly as rare as early Inferno builds. And Inferno alone does not fare nearly as well as Arrow + Inferno at Himes.

Throwing a few points in Rain (up to 9) is understandable from my perspective. Throwing the entire skill is suicidal. I only consider two active Hunter/Ranger/Bowmaster skills completely replaced by level 200, and they are Arrow Blow (replaced by Double Shot as soon as you get it o_o) and Double Shot (replaced by Strafe at level 70). Jump-strafing is still helpful once in a while, and Arrow Bomb still gets an occasional tap when I'm fighting fire-resistant mobs. Even PKB is still useful, mostly against flying enemies that I can't hit from a grounded position.

I think Hunter/Ranger/Bowmasters who don't make use of their full arsenal of active skills are not using their whole potential. Most of our passives have very limited potential: Blessing is completely useless, FA is considered by many unhelpful and completely replaced come 3rd job, Thrust only adds the easily replaceable stat speed, and MB only helps when monsters spawn on you (and with Hurricane, but again, it either doesn't work for me or I don't get how to use it).

AR is the only skill Bowmasters get that has no minimum range.

PKB has no minimum range and can be used in mid-air (and pushes monsters much further away, where you won't suffer touch damage and where you can link into your more powerful skills). MB helps in the rare instance a monster spawns on you and pushes monsters out of minimum range, and your 4th job skills are typically enough to keep monsters off you and out of minimum range.