The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread

Care to point those out?
And yes, I have play an AM before. It all felt the same to me.

The MP consumption for genesis is literally half of blizzard/meteo like you mentioned; but what's equally important to notice is that the damage is very very similar; technically speaking, since blizzard/meteo costs 2x as much as genesis, genesis should be doing half the damage... or at least significantly lower, but it's not.

Genesis at level 1 has a 440 spell attack. blizzard/meteo has a base of 330. With amp, that's 446. 440 costing 2.1k mp vs 446 costing 4.2k. Genesis clearly wins in terms of "better". At level 30, blizzard/meteo gains a slightly higher advantage but that fact that it costs 7k mp, it isn't cheap.

Genesis is faster than a level 11+ boost. You can't say this isn't important when you "kill everything in one hit". Because the majority of the magicians do not one hit kill everything. Both archmages and bishops. Even if they do 1 hit, then genesis casting faster means the got more hits in in 1 minute.

Skeles are holy weak. Newties are neutral. Genesis gains a 1.5k damage boost over blizzard/meteo. This can be fixed with newer training spots coming out that would favor archmages but newer spots aren't out yet.

At 4th job, it is. Every other class would be allowed to gain better experience rates by actually attacking, while an afk Bishop on a rope botting buffs would get crap. Something people often don't realize: more people in the party means more people actively helping; so long as the HSer in the party doesn't actively help, that's means he's getting the smallest cut of experience. And really, if there's any class that is needed above others at endgame, it's the healers-- they should get good experience to motivate them to keep going, not the worst of all classes.

Oh and by the way, there's not really anything that could be done to the fullscreen attacks. Natural order of AoE attacks are that the range gets better as your character becomes more masterful. The range pretty much has to be what it is for it to make sense. And the damage? The DPS on per target hits are only a little higher than 3rd job skills (if I recall, my level 10 Genesis is somewhere around 1.5x DPS on per target hits compared to my SR; compare this to Lucky Seven and Triple Throw). The problem is that because of the range, players no longer need to walk around the map like they used to. Anyone familiar with how/why hacking is effective would know that standing in one place and attacking many at once increases experience rates dramatically. I don't think there's anything which could TECHNICALLY be done, but I guess you could always cut the mob limit down to like 10 (scarcely ever get more than this anyway). You could also divide the hit damage by 3 and increase cast rate by 3. So instead of hitting 50k and looking OMG WAY TOO STRONG, I'd only be hitting 16.5k. These 2 things wouldn't really fix the problem, but it'd help ignorant people to stop thinking things are more unfair than they really are.

EDIT:
Am I missing something? Is anyone actually suggesting Bishops have it hard? All I've noticed is that people are saying Bishops would have it tough WITHOUT a means to stand up as an attacker, and that is an absolute truth.

Actually beloved and myself were talking about training Priests, not Bishops.
>_>

The MP consumption for genesis is literally half of blizzard/meteo like you mentioned; but what's equally important to notice is that the damage is very very similar; technically speaking, since blizzard/meteo costs 2x as much as genesis, genesis should be doing half the damage... or at least significantly lower, but it's not.

I guess AM would do more damage with elemental staffs/wands and training in a place with an advantage to their element.

Genesis at level 1 has a 440 spell attack. blizzard/meteo has a base of 330. With amp, that's 446. 440 costing 2.1k mp vs 446 costing 4.2k. Genesis clearly wins in terms of "better". At level 30, blizzard/meteo gains a slightly higher advantage but that fact that it costs 7k mp, it isn't cheap.

Maybe when Wizet designed the 3rd job skills, they actually wanted Mages to max Amp.

Genesis is faster than a level 11+ boost. You can't say this isn't important when you "kill everything in one hit". Because the majority of the magicians do not one hit kill everything. Both archmages and bishops. Even if they do 1 hit, then genesis casting faster means the got more hits in in 1 minute.

Spawn delay. Please tell me you've never noticed spawn delay when you're using either of the ultimates 1-2 hitting everything.

Skeles are holy weak. Newties are neutral. Genesis gains a 1.5k damage boost over blizzard/meteo. This can be fixed with newer training spots coming out that would favor archmages but newer spots aren't out yet.

Agreed.

The MP consumption for genesis is literally half of blizzard/meteo like you mentioned

No. Genesis is not half of Blizzard/Meteo. Blizzard/Meteo are two times what Genesis is. It's not that Genesis has a lower cost, it's that Blizzard and Meteo have a higher cost. This is because Amp mulitplies cost. It is not that Bishops have a skill that cuts their cost in half.

but what's equally important to notice is that the damage is very very similar; technically speaking, since blizzard/meteo costs 2x as much as genesis, genesis should be doing half the damage... or at least significantly lower, but it's not.

Actually, the point of amp is to have a much higher cost in exchange for a small boost in power. It works well in 3rd job, but in 4th, the higher base getting multiplied just makes it unfair.

But I digress. The point is to pay a much higher cost for a small boost. It's not supposed to be that you pay 2x MP for 2x damage boost.

And if you consider level playing field, a Mage using a functional elemental weapon would be "significantly" higher than a comparable Bishop. Just consider: Genesis at 670 base compared to Blizzard at 961. And yes, I am aware this is not a practical comparison due to lack of Ice weak monsters, but THAT'S the problem. The problem isn't "Mages are pineappleing weak and Bishops are strong", it's "Bishops have elemental advantage with ease and Mages do not".

Genesis at level 1 has a 440 spell attack. blizzard/meteo has a base of 330. With amp, that's 446. 440 costing 2.1k mp vs 446 costing 4.2k. Genesis clearly wins in terms of "better". At level 30, blizzard/meteo gains a slightly higher advantage but that fact that it costs 7k mp, it isn't cheap.

See above. It's not fair per se, but that's how the fundamental idea is SUPPOSED to be: pay a much higher cost for a small boost. Again, you pay 2x MP for 1.35 boost, not 2x MP for 2x boost.

Genesis is faster than a level 11+ boost. You can't say this isn't important when you "kill everything in one hit". Because the majority of the magicians do not one hit kill everything. Both archmages and bishops. Even if they do 1 hit, then genesis casting faster means the got more hits in in 1 minute.

Consider a world in which Skele are weak to Ice and Fire in addition to Holy. Mages would be killing in fewer hits at lower levels, and due to the spawn cycle, the kill rate pet time would be the same anyway. All the faster cast rate on Genesis would do is give us a small fraction of a second that we will have to wait before they respawn.

And I'm not saying Genesis SHOULD be faster. They should all be same speed if compared without Booster. All I am saying is that THAT is not the problem with the system; basically, that problem you are identifying is technically irrelevant. Mages and Bishops in practical application on level playing ground would have the Mages at an advantage, needing less levels to have enough magic to kill in fewer hits. Again, the source problem is presented: Mages have no elementally weak monsters.

The only case whereby Genesis being a fraction of a second faster would be spamming it against a monster with a large bank of HP. I guess you could say Bishops are better suited to spamming Genesis at multipart bosses (assuming elemental weapons never are fixed), but again there's the problem! Lack of elemental weakness. And for bosses, this pomegranate could be fixed SO damn easy. Make their demons' elemental shifting attacks work on bosses AND STACK.

This can be fixed with newer training spots coming out that would favor archmages but newer spots aren't out yet.

Do you know how much work that would require? Hell, if they really wanted, they could just flip a switch and make Newties weak to both elements instead of neutral. It's not "they need to work on this to get this fixed", they think it's not a problem (and in fact, keep doing pomegranate to pomegranate on Mages... fucking elemental resistance and pomegranate ugh). We need to be more vocal about what we need to make things fair.

--------------

Actually beloved and myself were talking about training Priests, not Bishops.
>_>

What? This thread is about "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult". In other words, this is a thread to compare Genesis to Blizzard/Meteo. Get the pineapple outta here if you want to talk about Priest pumpernickel.

Actually, the point of amp is to have a much higher cost in exchange for a small boost in power. It works well in 3rd job, but in 4th, the higher base getting multiplied just makes it unfair.

But I digress. The point is to pay a much higher cost for a small boost. It's not supposed to be that you pay 2x MP for 2x damage boost.

446/440 = 1.014x boost for 2x cost... that's a much higher cost for an infinitesimal boost.

Even maxed it's only a 1.15x boost for 2x cost, not the normal amp increase.

446/440 = 1.014x boost for 2x cost... that's a much higher cost for an infinitesimal boost.

Even maxed it's only a 1.15x boost for 2x cost, not the normal amp increase.

Hey, you don't got to tell me that pumpernickel. All along I've said that all Magician fullscreen attacks should be perfectly level and that amp shouldn't activate for them at all. If this were the way things were, the only hurdle from there would be to ensure that Mages get the same sort of elemental advantage enemies that Bishops do, and honestly, that would be so damn easy to do.

But yeah, rather than going on with this "GRAH BISHOPS UNFAIR NERF pumpernickel", you should instead go "hey wait why not just make amp not work with these attacks and give Mages the same base that Bishops have had all along". It's not Bishops that have a fucked up aspect to their skills, it's Mages. Rather than make Bishops weaker or more costly, make Mages stronger and cheaper. Again, it's not that Bishops have half the cost Mages have, it's that Mages have 2x the cost.

Pst, why does Nexon need to make Gene/Bilz/Meteo Weaker or like less exp gaining? Why can't we just ask for another Defence formula change (they've done it at least once before) and just make MDEF actually worth someting or simply pump it up on some higher level monsters? why not change it so that Melee chars do more damage?

Basically there is a lot of changed Nexon could implement that could even out the game some thats outside of weakening Ults, Make Mdef worth something, Make Wdef worthless, Make a new damage formula..... or even drop a big old BOMB on NLC so that possiblly it might be a losing endevor for bliz/gene/meteo spamage... (anyone know if they had these kinda issues in MSEA when 4th came out? Since they didnt have NLC was/is it much differnt?

wut

You want to increase MDEF potency which would reduce the effectiveness of magicians at bosses even more? No plz.

"Why not change it so that melee characters do more damage?" Uh. Hi. My name is MapleStory, you might not have met me.

There are lots of possible ways to solve disparities between the magician classes and other classes, but increasing MDEF potency isn't one of them. Increasing the damage output of melee characters is not one of them.

Personally, I think that the only way to fix the ultimate issue is to change them completely. I think that first, all ultimates should cast at the same speed without booster, which gives AMs the advantage. Next, I think that Genesis should have 570 base att, Blizzard should have 640, and Meteo have 670 (I think that Meteo should be stronger because it doesn't freeze, and it should be stronger like all fire-based attacks in the past.) All the ultimates should also cost the same amount.

Genesis should be weaker than the other two because while Bishops should have a good attacking skill, it should also be a lot weaker than the AM ones because they're a support class and AMs are an attacking class.

Genesis should be weaker than the other two because while Bishops should have a good attacking skill, it should also be a lot weaker than the AM ones because they're a support class and AMs are an attacking class.

The problem with this logic is that Bishops aren't "support". They're an attacking class, because they have to be to get good enough experience rates.

That's not to say Bishops should be the strongest, I agree in the aspect that it sucks that Bishops have it easy on Holy-weak mobs while Mages lack equivalent mobs.

Like I've already said, I think all fullscreen attacks should be equal, even Blizzard that has the apparent advantage of freezing, even Genesis which belongs to a supposed support-only class. You may see Bishops as "durhur support only", but I can tell you that no selfrespecting endgame level Bishop sees themself in that way-- they see themself as a holy elemental magician. They are Magicians who attack using Holy elemental magic-- they're not a "support class", they just have some skills that function as support in certain instances (specifically boss fights).

In my views, there is no 'best' class. Every class has their own way of being good at something that others are not good at.





[SIZE="1"]Well, cept Paladins >_>[/SIZE]

What? This thread is about "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult". In other words, this is a thread to compare Genesis to Blizzard/Meteo. Get the pineapple outta here if you want to talk about Priest pumpernickel.

Normally I'd say something, but what the filter did to your post is too funny.

The problem with this logic is that Bishops aren't "support". They're an attacking class, because they have to be to get good enough experience rates.

That's not to say Bishops should be the strongest, I agree in the aspect that it sucks that Bishops have it easy on Holy-weak mobs while Mages lack equivalent mobs.

Like I've already said, I think all fullscreen attacks should be equal, even Blizzard that has the apparent advantage of freezing, even Genesis which belongs to a supposed support-only class. You may see Bishops as "durhur support only", but I can tell you that no selfrespecting endgame level Bishop sees themself in that way-- they see themself as a holy elemental magician. They are Magicians who attack using Holy elemental magic-- they're not a "support class", they just have some skills that function as support in certain instances (specifically boss fights).

You're blurring the class line. If you think that, then we can solve the problem by having Nexon rename them: Mage H/H. (Heal/Holy.)

Bishops need the attack, because leeching is too slow from 4th job onwards. If you remove Genesis, many Bishops would quit, and that would screw many boss runs. But, that attack doesn't need to be equal to "Blizzard/Meteo + Amp" with half the MP cost. If it is nerfed to 1/4 - 1/2 its current strength, maybe that would help AMs. (Of course, Nexon should set the Elemental Wand bonuses to work too. )

Bishops need the attack, because leeching is too slow from 4th job onwards. If you remove Genesis, many Bishops would quit, and that would screw many boss runs. But, that attack doesn't need to be equal to "Blizzard/Meteo + Amp" with half the MP cost. If it is nerfed to 1/4 - 1/2 its current strength, maybe that would help AMs. (Of course, Nexon should set the Elemental Wand bonuses to work too. )

As it is now, elemental wands/staffs won't effect any I/L or F/P that doesn't have a shitton of money. I personally think that mages should get a great party skill; something like Pirate's Wind Booster.

B> Matk +50% skillbook for when I'm 4th, plz. =P

As it is now, elemental wands/staffs won't effect any I/L or F/P that doesn't have a pumpernickelton of money. I personally think that mages should get a great party skill; something like Pirate's Wind Booster.

I think what's been said before is make the AM's Mana Reflection a party skill, and make the Bishop's only for themselves. If at zakum, if there were 30 people who all got hit by a 2k MA, that's and extra 120k damage just from one hit. And considering how bosses like zakum attack once every few seconds, that could be an extra few mil dmg every minute, which would defenitely make AMs useful at bosses.

You're blurring the class line. If you think that, then we can solve the problem by having Nexon rename them: Mage H/H. (Heal/Holy.)

Pretty much.

Except Holy elemental Magicians have an appropriate set of titles aside from ties to Magedom. They have a hierarchy of titles in religious systems.

Oh and by the way: I really don't get why people are excited about elemental weapons. Rather than getting excited about this, why not be vocal and say "Elemental Amp should add 50% instead of whatever it does right now". These weapons are relatively rare, gach only, and make every weapon obsolete. Why would you want to have to swap in a new weapon to be as strong as you deserve to be?

I think what's been said before is make the AM's Mana Reflection a party skill, and make the Bishop's only for themselves. If at zakum, if there were 30 people who all got hit by a 2k MA, that's and extra 120k damage just from one hit. And considering how bosses like zakum attack once every few seconds, that could be an extra few mil dmg every minute, which would defenitely make AMs useful at bosses.

Mages are technically already able to useful at bosses. It's run organizers that stop them from being able to. They need their summons and fullscreen attacks.

Medi: +20% MATK/ +20 MATK if 20% is less plz?? ._.

Oh and by the way: I really don't get why people are excited about elemental weapons. Rather than getting excited about this, why not be vocal and say "Elemental Amp should add 50% instead of whatever it does right now". These weapons are relatively rare, gach only, and make every weapon obsolete. Why would you want to have to swap in a new weapon to be as strong as you deserve to be?

Because we already know Nexon won't change that? Or maybe because people just want shiny, new things. I'd be more satisfied with that than the weapons probably, but if it were a viable option, Magic would be to magicians what Luk, Str, and Dex are to star users, warriors, and bowmen. That is, you're rewarded for putting into a secondary stat because there isn't a 1:1 ratio of ability stat to attack stat. What I mean to say is that if such a thing were a likely thing to be implemented, our magic stat calculations wouldn't be so retarded in the first place.

Medi: +20% MATK/ +20 MATK if 20% is less plz?? ._.

By the time you have meditate worth using, if you don't have at least 100 magic stat, you probably have a str magician or something.

It was a random number. Besides, at my current lvl, 20% is 40 MAtk. (give or take)

Oh and by the way: I really don't get why people are excited about elemental weapons. Rather than getting excited about this, why not be vocal and say "Elemental Amp should add 50% instead of whatever it does right now". These weapons are relatively rare, gach only, and make every weapon obsolete. Why would you want to have to swap in a new weapon to be as strong as you deserve to be?

For once I think I agree with you.

Because we already know Nexon won't change that? Or maybe because people just want shiny, new things. I'd be more satisfied with that than the weapons probably, but if it were a viable option, Magic would be to magicians what Luk, Str, and Dex are to star users, warriors, and bowmen. That is, you're rewarded for putting into a secondary stat because there isn't a 1:1 ratio of ability stat to attack stat. What I mean to say is that if such a thing were a likely thing to be implemented, our magic stat calculations wouldn't be so retarded in the first place.

At the bolded: They changed Chakra to make it useful, so they could change AMP. Then again, Nexon giving a damn? lolwut?

At the rest: Yes. I fully agree. As it is LUK does nothing save let us equip things.