The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread

Give me a pineappleing break, Priests are not enslaved, that would imply they don't get anything out of it. I wish I could leech 3 jobs then get the best mob skill in the game while still being wanted on boss runs. Seriously, stop with the whole "OMG BISHOPZ HAV IT HARD QQ" bullpumpernickel.

No one said that. All that was said was that if they couldn't attack in 4th job, THEN they'd have a hard time. Leeching through 3rd job can be fast, but leeching through 4th would be so slow that Bishops would probably just quit playing and then there'd be no one to heal, dispel, and resurrect at bosses.

SR can still beat Explosion because Explosion's hideously slow, most F/Ps training there were using Mist for the majority of the damage.

Explosion is stronger in every department than SR. It being slower is irrelevant, because it still does higher DPS. And it's not like it takes a few seconds longer than SR to cast, it takes a fraction of a second longer, and at the same time, hits a great deal harder.

The reason FP's used Mist is because Mist allows for EVEN GREATER DPS. The DPS on Mist is limited only by the amount of monsters on the map and the map layout. SR and Explosion can only hit 6 monsters at once for an absolute max damage, but Mist can be damaging the entire map of Grims at once. Mist is also effective because the player doesn't need to stop and fight, they just walk around, drop a mist, kill off the dead monsters from the last cycle, and keep going. I tell you, that's a whole lot easier than having to stop at each platform and slowly where down a few grims by casting SR like 10 times.

So yeah, to sum up: Explosion is higher DPS than SR, and FPs use Mist instead of Explosion because Mist is EVEN STRONGER, not because Explosion is weak (although, as an aside, Ice Strike IS stronger DPS than Explosion).

No one said that. All that was said was that if they couldn't attack in 4th job, THEN they'd have a hard time. Leeching through 3rd job can be fast, but leeching through 4th would be so slow that Bishops would probably just quit playing and then there'd be no one to heal, dispel, and resurrect at bosses.

Really now.

If you want support class players, you'll want to give them a reason to want to play it besides being enslaved all the way through till the end. If not for this reason, then nexon should have just gone ahead and made heal a non-attack, as well as stripped the healing class of any and all offense attacks. Look at how much bossing has changed now that nobody's inspired to play a DK to DrK.

Why can't you just assume that people who treat priests like hs mules are the type of people who would shadow web your bigfoot and ks your skelegon map? Not everyone treats them bad.

On the other hand, some priests are spoiled too just afking in a newtie map while ranged people and archmages just kill. That kind of behavior leads to people treating bishops like mules because it's what they were when they were priests.

I think most people saying that bishops shouldn't get genesis don't mean that genesis would be removed completely; they mean that genesis should be downgraded in power or downgraded into an entirely different spell so that bishops get roughly the same rates as everyone else.

Really now.

lol Yes, really.

The word "enslaved" is meant to be used only for its concept in a more melodramatic way. Even you have to admit that people these days tend to use the behaviours of those of us who stand there and do nothing as a means to reflect the rest of us who don't do it. It is speaking in the language of most people that apparently does not apply to you.

Regardless, the point of that quote still stands.

I think most people saying that bishops shouldn't get genesis don't mean that genesis would be removed completely; they mean that genesis should be downgraded in power or downgraded into an entirely different spell so that bishops get roughly the same rates as everyone else.

I have to agree with this. At the moment, the abilities of bishops are far too similar to arch mages, and having a holy weak endgame map along with all the priest party benefits simply makes bishops overpowered. I think that the class should still play similarly to priests in the 4th job, that being having just enough power to do things solo if necessary, but excelling in parties due to having a large amount of party benefiting skills.

It would be interesting if resurrection acted as a fullscreen attack on undead monsters, but had a cooldown. It would be like a guaranteed 1hko like snipe, but only work on undead and have a 10 minute cooldown.

It would be interesting if resurrection acted as a fullscreen attack on undead monsters, but had a cooldown. It would be like a guaranteed 1hko like snipe, but only work on undead and have a 10 minute cooldown.

It's a little late now (people would get extremely mad, dozens of Bishops already at level 200, etc.) but I would definitely be happier if the Ultimates were all on 60-90 second cooldowns, like the other "temporary power boost" skills (Heaven's Hammer, Snipe, Enrage, Concentrate) where they're on a cast delay.

Of course there would be other changes in skills to balance that out - I can't say exactly what those would be, but non-Ultimate training could be brought up to par with the other classes, especially on single targets. I'm not against Mages being the strongest at elemental maps, but the gap from Ultimate kill rates to any other skills is just too great.

lol Yes, really.

The word "enslaved" is meant to be used only for its concept in a more melodramatic way. Even you have to admit that people these days tend to use the behaviours of those of us who stand there and do nothing as a means to reflect the rest of us who don't do it. It is speaking in the language of most people that apparently does not apply to you.

Regardless, the point of that quote still stands.

You miss my point completely.
You are making it seem like standing on a rope and occasionally HSing someone while getting EXP is the worst thing in the world. It's not.

Pst, why does Nexon need to make Gene/Bilz/Meteo Weaker or like less exp gaining? Why can't we just ask for another Defence formula change (they've done it at least once before) and just make MDEF actually worth someting or simply pump it up on some higher level monsters? why not change it so that Melee chars do more damage?

Basically there is a lot of changed Nexon could implement that could even out the game some thats outside of weakening Ults, Make Mdef worth something, Make Wdef worthless, Make a new damage formula..... or even drop a big old BOMB on NLC so that possiblly it might be a losing endevor for bliz/gene/meteo spamage... (anyone know if they had these kinda issues in MSEA when 4th came out? Since they didnt have NLC was/is it much differnt?

The balance in other versions is that we have NLC potions and apples, while most other versions don't have either. In other versions, you'd have to be extremely rich to spam ultimates to train, but on the flip side, the unavailability of apples makes archmages less worthless at bosses.

You miss my point completely.
You are making it seem like standing on a rope and occasionally HSing someone while getting EXP is the worst thing in the world. It's not.

I didn't actually. People seem to enjoy not giving priests credit for running back and forth across the hime map. They tell us that they're the one bringing home the bacon, and they call us whiners for "so little work" when really, look who's talking? Who's the one running back and forth, keeping all party buffs in check so everyone else can stand in one spot waiting to kill? lol I DO know dk's who jam their keys and then afk. Duno about you, but that last bit sounds EXACTLY like being enslaved.

IPeople seem to enjoy not giving priests credit for running back and forth across the hime map.

Since when do people actually give credit in this game apart from levelling up or giving items?
"oh noes, dk did not say thx for me runin bak and forth i guss i quit hime.. B> LEECH I PAY NX"

I'll try to simply put what I think below.

AM have amp meaning more damage. Also means more MP cost.
Bishops do not have amp, meaning less MP cost.
To me, it seems even.

About the speeds. Who gives a pineapple, seriously. Everything should be dead in one hit. They're the only class that can kill an entire map with just 1 skill dealing high damage. Stop pineappleing complaining about it.

I'll try to simply put what I think below.

AM have amp meaning more damage. Also means more MP cost.
Bishops do not have amp, meaning less MP cost.
To me, it seems even.

You wouldn't think that if you were an archmage. What you see is not what we get. There are other factors other than the straight to-the-point facts you listed, that were mentioned in this thread (and others).

My opinion is that Bishop >>>>>>> Arch mages, for now, untill elemental wands start to shine I suppose?

I think Genesis should be 0.75 weaker and should take 1.5 more mp.

I didn't actually. People seem to enjoy not giving priests credit for running back and forth across the hime map. They tell us that they're the one bringing home the bacon, and they call us whiners for "so little work" when really, look who's talking? Who's the one running back and forth, keeping all party buffs in check so everyone else can stand in one spot waiting to kill? lol I DO know dk's who jam their keys and then afk. Duno about you, but that last bit sounds EXACTLY like being enslaved.

As someone who's played a Priest for a friend on many occasions I am well aware that it isn't easy to keep everyone buffed, healed, holy symbol'd, and happy at the same time. However, in certain maps such as Newties there isn't much to do save stay on a rope and HS. A lot of priests have been spoiled by that and expect everything else to be as easy. Other times, I've seen Priests train with the same person forever, but once they get Genesis they say "pineapple you!" and go solo. I can't blame them, however when this happens a lot of them will refuse to train with anyone but another Bishop or Arch Mage. I've seen it make individuals hate each other. However that's a different story.

Grims, Himes, and the like I can see taking actual strategy. A lot of the Priests/Bishops I know or have see talk about this issue enjoy being in parties helping out someone while getting exp.
But then there's this underlying fact that this game is filled to the brim with assholes. Most of them will treat the priest like pumpernickel, and that's why they will only train with people they know as opposed to "randoms."

With that said, I see how it can seem like you're the other person's "slave" sometimes but others it's not as bad. It's a mutual benefit for the both of you even if you have to party with someone you'd otherwise try to avoid.

If you people think priests/bishop have a hard time leveling, try starting a character of... any other class.

Since when do people actually give credit in this game apart from levelling up or giving items?
"oh noes, dk did not say thx for me runin bak and forth i guss i quit hime.. B> LEECH I PAY NX"

lol Giving credit doesnt have to mean saying thanks for the party after or something. But not giving credit is calling us whiners and lazyasses. I do admit that 4th job newtie priests have this tendency though.

Edit: lol mage class is easy to level. Bishops especially. Well, from my point of view anyway. o_o

I have to agree with this. At the moment, the abilities of bishops are far too similar to arch mages, and having a holy weak endgame map along with all the priest party benefits simply makes bishops overpowered.

I think you're missing the point. Bishops have "similar abilities" to Arch Mages because they're different takes on the same class: Magician. Bishops are holy element, Mages are dark elements. If Mages get certain abilities, it makes sense for Bishops to have Holy versions of similar abilities. However, by the same rights, Holy elementalists having certain skills or buffs should mean Mages get useful analogues themself.

The application of this is a bit skewed, I must admit, but that's the general idea. In truth, a better application would be to have Mages getting good buffs which are analogous to the Holy Magicians' good buffs; Their 2nd job meditiation should have been actually useful in a party (and the magic added should probably have been percent based), their 3rd job booster should have been a party buff (recall: this is before Pirates were thought of yet), their 4th job Mana Reflect should have been more robust and been a party buff. See, it should go both ways. This "omg take crap from Bishops because they're too good" sentiment many people have is wrong-- you should advocate making your own class better, not try to tear down things which were done well (even if arguably overdone to a degree).

The only problem with Mage/Bishop relations that I think should be addressed on the Bishop end is the cost of Genesis. But by the same regard, I would say that the cast time for each skill should be identical, the MP cost should be identical, the base should be identical, and amp shouldn't affect it at all. But this alone wouldn't even be fair either though-- they still need to make better monsters of other elemental weaknesses.

I think that the class should still play similarly to priests in the 4th job, that being having just enough power to do things solo if necessary, but excelling in parties due to having a large amount of party benefiting skills.

There's no way this could be done in the MapleStory system. It is impossible to gain good experience leeching if you're much higher than the monster's level. This is why leeching through Priest-hood is fast, yet trying to do the same through 4th (or suggesting we should HAVE TO) would be VERY painful. This is why the "cleric is only support" idea is never going to fly. In MapleStory, all classes must function as attackers in one way or another, and as such, these Holy Magicians in MapleStory become more of a "White Mage" than a "Cleric".

It would be interesting if resurrection acted as a fullscreen attack on undead monsters, but had a cooldown. It would be like a guaranteed 1hko like snipe, but only work on undead and have a 10 minute cooldown.

Yeah, there are tons of things which would have made for a better all-around 4th job. Not even just Bishop skills, not just Mage skills; all classes have things about them that could have been done differently and better. Personally, the one thing I was really hoping to get that I don't think anyone else has ever mentioned is Advanced Teleport-- it'd work by a charge timer, and depending on how long it's held, you'd be able to teleport that far away, even clear across maps, yet it would've been able to be spammed to give speedy movement like normal teleport.

You miss my point completely.
You are making it seem like standing on a rope and occasionally HSing someone while getting EXP is the worst thing in the world. It's not.

At 4th job, it is. Every other class would be allowed to gain better experience rates by actually attacking, while an afk Bishop on a rope botting buffs would get crap. Something people often don't realize: more people in the party means more people actively helping; so long as the HSer in the party doesn't actively help, that's means he's getting the smallest cut of experience. And really, if there's any class that is needed above others at endgame, it's the healers-- they should get good experience to motivate them to keep going, not the worst of all classes.

Oh and by the way, there's not really anything that could be done to the fullscreen attacks. Natural order of AoE attacks are that the range gets better as your character becomes more masterful. The range pretty much has to be what it is for it to make sense. And the damage? The DPS on per target hits are only a little higher than 3rd job skills (if I recall, my level 10 Genesis is somewhere around 1.5x DPS on per target hits compared to my SR; compare this to Lucky Seven and Triple Throw). The problem is that because of the range, players no longer need to walk around the map like they used to. Anyone familiar with how/why hacking is effective would know that standing in one place and attacking many at once increases experience rates dramatically. I don't think there's anything which could TECHNICALLY be done, but I guess you could always cut the mob limit down to like 10 (scarcely ever get more than this anyway). You could also divide the hit damage by 3 and increase cast rate by 3. So instead of hitting 50k and looking OMG WAY TOO STRONG, I'd only be hitting 16.5k. These 2 things wouldn't really fix the problem, but it'd help ignorant people to stop thinking things are more unfair than they really are.

EDIT:

If you people think priests/bishop have a hard time leveling, try starting a character of... any other class.

Am I missing something? Is anyone actually suggesting Bishops have it hard? All I've noticed is that people are saying Bishops would have it tough WITHOUT a means to stand up as an attacker, and that is an absolute truth.

You wouldn't think that if you were an archmage. What you see is not what we get. There are other factors other than the straight to-the-point facts you listed, that were mentioned in this thread (and others).

Care to point those out?
And yes, I have play an AM before. It all felt the same to me.

lol Giving credit doesnt have to mean saying thanks for the party after or something. But not giving credit is calling us whiners and lazyasses. I do admit that 4th job newtie priests have this tendency though.

Edit: lol mage class is easy to level. Bishops especially. Well, from my point of view anyway. o_o

Everyone I partied with on my priest has said thanks for the party. I guess it just depends on what server you play.

My opinion is that Bishop >>>>>>> Arch mages, for now, untill elemental wands start to shine I suppose?

I think Genesis should be 0.75 weaker and should take 1.5 more mp.

http://www.southperry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2859
Not anymore. To balance out NLC pots -> ult spamming, the wands no longer get Elemental Boosts (or Penalties).