HiSTORY HAS BEEN MADE!!!!

I'm fully aware that Communism isn't a "fair and equal" society, but that's what it tried to aim for. After all, it's impossible for a truly equal society to exist. America has always been a "dog eat dog" system, and I don't see that changing any time this decade.

You clearly need to better study the USA more. First clue; "We hold these truths self evident, that all men are created equal" ring a bell?

If what you've said were remotely true we'd not have a tiered tax system, social security, social security disability insurance, medicare, WIC, rehabilitation & wellfare of any other kind or any other socialism concepts.

Our brand of Democracy isn't about majority rule, it's also about a responsibility of everyone to contribute towards the betterment of all and the protection of minorities from mob mentality. The key differences between political parties in the US is how they try to achieve this and independent responsibility.

You clearly need to better study the USA more.

You're right, my memory is horrible, and I never liked social studies or history at all.

"We hold these truths self evident, that all men are created equal" ring a bell?

From my understanding, what was written and what was actually done were two different things. There was more evidence that the founding fathers didn't really trust the people that much, but they did give them power in some way.

If what you've said were remotely true we'd not have a tiered tax system, social security, social security disability insurance, medicare, WIC, rehabilitation & wellfare of any other kind or any other socialism concepts.?

Human rights, that kind of stuff is needed for every successful country today. Makes the country look better as a whole. Our society is still running on the concept of Dog eat Dog , there are just safety nets put down for the dogs who can't make it to the top (so they can be kept taking advantage of).

Our brand of Democracy isn't about majority rule, it's also about a responsibility of everyone to contribute towards the betterment of all and the protection of minorities from mob mentality. The key differences between political parties in the US is how they try to achieve this and independent responsibility.

Nothing to really respond to. Never liked politics, but I feel this does come off as way too much of an optimistic ideal. Something that seems nice and dandy when written on paper but doesn't stand up so well when met with a real world situation.

But I've forgotten any of that crap I learned in school anyway, so what do I know.

You clearly need to better study the USA more. First clue; "We hold these truths self evident, that all men are created equal" ring a bell?

Funny thing is, not all men were treated equal. Segregation, discrimination, slaves, and other wonderful things to condescend our equality.

Funny thing is, not all men were treated equal. Segregation, discrimination, slaves, and other wonderful things to condescend our equality.

All men are created equal, but some are more equal than others.

The whole Declaration of Independence was pretty much just a huge poem made to justify the breaking off of the colonies from Britain. It didn't have to directly reflect on the laws that are later put in place when the colonies actually got their independence.

All men are created equal, but some are more equal than others.

e·qual   [ee-kwuhl]
–adjective
1.
as great as; the same as (often fol. by to or with): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.
2.
like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.: two students of equal brilliance.

I don't see how that works out.

I feel this does come off as way too much of an optimistic ideal. Something that seems nice and dandy when written on paper but doesn't stand up so well when met with a real world situation.

Pragmatism is not optimism.
Any idiot knows that if you intend to stand at the top of a pyramid you don't nuke the base without expecting to take a topple yourself.
History has taught us over and over that the elite are just as doomed as everyone else when widespread instability and unrest occur for the simple fact they're vastly outnumbered.

Funny thing is, not all men were treated equal. Segregation, discrimination, slaves, and other wonderful things to condescend our equality.

All of which has been, or is being, slowly eroded based on the power of those founding principles.
Slavery was abolished. Women's suffrage came about. An ideal is something to work towards, not something that spontaneously manifests across the universe as soon as it's conceptualized.

Pragmatism is not optimism.
Any idiot knows that if you intend to stand at the top of a pyramid you don't nuke the base without expecting to take a topple yourself.
History has taught us over and over that the elite are just as doomed as everyone else when widespread instability and unrest occur for the simple fact they're vastly outnumbered.

Human rights, that kind of stuff is needed for every successful country today. Makes the country look better as a whole. Our society is still running on the concept of Dog eat Dog , there are just safety nets put down for the dogs who can't make it to the top (so they can be kept taking advantage of).

That's where the safety net I was talking about comes in. Everything that you listed are the safety nets that make the "top of the pyramid" possible while keeping the lower ends in tact. It's not making it equal, it's just making sure that the bottom can support the top.

An equal society is a noble idea, but it's really not possible to achieve. There always has to be someone above the rest. There always has to be someone calling the shots and in power. We really can't have a world where everyone holds hands and keep at the same level with one another under a rainbow. There will always be someone in the group of equals who desires more power. Humans are vile, greedy, disgusting creatures. Even if you wouldn't do so, someone else will. Someone will always be looking for an opportunity to take advantage of others and get ahead.

No Offence spidey. but your posts really piss me off.
I'll start off with my political views to give you a better idea of where I'm comming from.

I'm a socialist and a communist.

I belive that the means of production of nessesties should be without owners ( electricitiy,water,healthcare,general infrastructure ) theres no need for a middle man making a profit off of all these things .

that being said. We all have a right to live. if you can't empathize with people then you'll probably dissgree with my next point. imagine you conract one illness or another and you lack the resources to pay for it or maybe you have the resources but it'll take up all the money you've been saving for the past 5 years or whatever. an unimaginable amount of people.. you know living breathing humans who feel and can get hurt just like you. have to end up borrowing so much money that they'll never be able to retire and that will ruin their lives or simply can't get the money and have to live with the pain of knowing " I could be healthy and live a long life but I'm going to die because I can't afford for the medicine for a curable disease or whatever "


Secondly. Taxes.. sorry to BURST your bubble but they DO need to be raised . in the U.S you barley pay any taxes compared to other countries. In Israel( my current country of residence ( I'm an american ) ) income tax is nearly double but guess what. theres free universal healthcare and theres no waiting. no nothing. no ifs,buts or maybes
but thats nothing special. EVERY first world nation has this. idealy the top 10% of citizens ( by income ) should be taxed 90% of their wealth. it creates a middle class thats stable and helps iliminate povery and homelessness.


I can't see why you would oppose to socialized healthcare. its not like YOU are the only one paying for this all by yourself. you don't even pay that much more money in taxes then you do now.

Also. to suggest that everyone who can't offord it can't because of their own faults is ludacris. Povery is a cycle created by many factors. its sad to say but majority of people will have the same living standards (class) as their parrents.
If you want be to point out why i'll be more than happy to.


P.S sorry for the typos.

No Offence spidey. but your posts really piss me off.

No offense taken. I'm watching something right now and about to sleep after I finish it, so I'll edit this post later if I see fit. For now I wanted to let you know that everyone is entitled to their ideals. I may not agree with what yours are, but I do respect your decision to lash out at me to voice them.

We all have a right to live. if you can't empathize with people then you'll probably dissgree with my next point.

Glad you foresaw this outcome.

Secondly. Taxes.. sorry to BURST your bubble but they DO need to be raised . in the U.S you barley pay any taxes compared to other countries. In Israel( my current country of residence ( I'm an american ) ) income tax is nearly double but guess what. theres free universal healthcare and theres no waiting. no nothing. no ifs,buts or maybes
but thats nothing special. EVERY first world nation has this. idealy the top 10% of citizens ( by income ) should be taxed 90% of their wealth. it creates a middle class thats stable and helps iliminate povery and homelessness.

I know very well Americans pay jack squat in taxes compared to other countries. If it was just additional charges added to my goods, I would still complain, but at least I can still live my life the way I do. This bill makes it so I have to get this health care crap that I don't feel I need. On top of that, I'm forced to pay for shit that won't really benefit me and receive some sort of fine or something if I don't. I'll re-read this later to make sure I'm remembering that correctly, it's vague in my head now (bad memory at work).

I can't see why you would oppose to socialized healthcare. its not like YOU are the only one paying for this all by yourself. you don't even pay that much more money in taxes then you do now.

But it's still me paying extra money for the good of some person I'll never meet. No, sorry, I don't want to be forced to donate money. I wouldn't care as much if it went to schools or some crap, that kinda stuff is where my tax money is already mostly used for.

Also. to suggest that everyone who can't offord it can't because of their own faults is ludacris. Povery is a cycle created by many factors. its sad to say but majority of people will have the same living standards (class) as their parrents.
If you want be to point out why i'll be more than happy to.

Well, that's kinda the was America has been since it was founded. Some people are born with golden spoons in their mouths, some are born in some poor and crappy village somewhere in the outskirts of Africa. We can't all win at the game of life, now can we? May not be fair, but that's how life is. You can try to take a step closer to fixing this problem, but it will still exist in some form or another.

Ofcourse you can't fix all the worlds problem. nor am I an idealist. I'm just trying to make the world better. and thats what I think socialized healthcare would do. make things easier for everyone. sure it'll help people you'll never see or know. I hope its not wrong of me to assume that you just "done care" for those people. and there we have simply different world views. the suffering of other people effects me deeply so I can't really understand the " not caring" part.

As for that being how america has always been. Yes. its true, I know my history of the last 300 years quite well in detail. but just because thats "how its always been" isn't a valid argument. if it were then progress wouldn't exist. civil rights movements wouldn't exist. so yeah. we can change american to be better. isn't that kinda the point of civilization .. progress.

Also. I'm more arguing for socialized healthcare then the waterdowned bill that was passed. the new bill has some horrible things. like making it mandatory to purchase healthcare and no real means of keeping costs down.
the only +'s it that health insurance providers can't deny you for pre existing conditions. can't decide not to cover you because its too expensive and that if you're in medicare and your drugs arn't too expensive or too cheap you still get them for free.

The absolutely last thing we need is socialized healthcare. Socialism as a whole was an utter failure, why would you want it for your pineappleing health.... If you want the dam socialized healthcare so much, get the pineapple outta the USA and go to a country that has socialized healthcare, youll give up all your freedom just to truly sit and wait for the smallest of care from a doctor.


Reading up some posts, tear your visa up....

The absolutely last thing we need is socialized healthcare. Socialism as a whole was an utter failure, why would you want it for your pineappleing health.... If you want the dam socialized healthcare so much, get the pineapple outta the USA and go to a country that has socialized healthcare, youll give up all your freedom just to truly sit and wait for the smallest of care from a doctor.


Reading up some posts, tear your visa up....

O.k. I must say, as a Canadian, some parts of "Socialism" is actualy quite well thought out, especially the medicare part: We get to get our broken legs fixed for free, we are able to get perscription drugs, heck, I can go to the doctor for a freaking cold and not pay a dime! Having one part of a Socialist ideal does NOT mean that the country is automatically socialist.

Do we give up our freedoms for this healthcare? No! How the heck did you even think of such a lunatic idea? Maybe it is just the fact that I am Canadian and never really needed to directly pay for healthcare that I do not understand the messed up system that the U.S. had/has, but I would rather have a broken leg in Canada than a sprained finger in the U.S.

Democratic Socialism has been working very well for more or less the entirety of 1st world Europe for quite some time. The problems start when you add a dictator to the mix and promise Utopia without government is on its way... eventually, i.e. Soviet Russia.

Just be glad our healthcare isn't in the sh`itstorm that China's is going through.

:|

All people are whining about is losing money because they're greedy little asses. Really and truly. You pay an otherwise unnoticeable tax amount for a new system that benefits just about everyone? LMAO.
The only people really being taxed are those who make more than $250,000 a year. Which is none of you, so why complain?

People get so upset about having to pay higher taxes. Oh well. Get over it. Those same people are going to be bi'tching when they lose their job in a few years and need health insurance. You can't have everything you want guys. This is a good thing.

Imo, at this point, I 'do' care what happens because I will be personally affected by it. But regardless of which side I am for or against (Republican or Democrat), I realize it's kinda pointless because neither side is 'correct'.

Not to generalize, but the patterns indicates that the more richer populace leans towards Republicans ; Vice-versa is also true, the poor tends to lean towards Democrats. I don't side with either, and though I guess I consider myself near the middle or lower tier of the middle of that spectrum, I would like it so that the economy doesn't collapse any further than it already has. The protection will be up to 26, was it? However, who's paying for all of us? The people. Everybody. Which means taxes will go up. I'd rather it not be like that. Truth be told, I wish health insurance was not required at all. Of course, I wouldn't mind having extended protection, but leeching off of others is never the way to go, unless you're a douche and a scum of society.

leeching off of others is never the way to go, unless you're a douche and a scum of society.

It's not leeching to make use of communal resources you need.
Leeching would be taking excessively and/or unnecessarily, or taking without contributing yourself, but everyone is contributing so that everyone can use it as needed.

Funny how most people have no problem with taking unemployment or social security, which operate on the same basic premise, but you mention healthcare and everyone freaks.

Truth is you're already paying out the ass today for people who would rather sit at home than go to work just because they have a doctors note saying they have a disability and the government will pay them more than minimum wage (in addition to the people who legitimately are disabled, not saying everyone on SSI and SSDI fall into that category, but we all know some do and most of them readily admit it).
At least this tax hike actually accomplishes something that can benefit you tangibly.

Of course, I wouldn't mind having extended protection, but leeching off of others is never the way to go, unless you're a douche and a scum of society.

Think about it this way: If you're rich, you pay a little more so that people poorer than you can get health insurance. Sounds bad, since it means you will lose money, eh? True enough, that's not good. So if you will get an advantage by doing it, you would do it, right? (Hell yes)

Whenever health insurance is given from the richer people to the poorer, that means essentially two things: The difference between people will decrease, and the productivity of poorer people would go up. Because healthcare essentially means that whenever you have a back that's hurting, you can go to the doctor instead of lowering your productivity, whether it be lower grades or lower production at work.

Now, in order to earn the most out of it, there has to be some sort of balance: There must be a reason to work your ass off by leading a company, and that reason is money. There must also be possible to have workers with high productivity, and that means you'll have to pay taxes to e.g. health insurances. The key is to find the right balance in order to generate the most wealth, so that you benefit the most out of it.

When talking about wealth, I'm not talking about money. If you're from the middle-class, would you prefer to stay there, or to go back 500 years and be one of the richest in the country? I'm sure I'd have stayed.

I never said I wasn't against people abusing un-employment status as a way to gain money from the government. That kinda annoys me as well. I've heard co-workers mentioning of it, and it disgusts me, however, I tend to keep my mouth shut and would rather listen to them babble. You're right that everyone is contributing towards it, I agree. However, but the people that is abusing that are gaining more of an advantage.

@DS: Hmm, I was gonna type something, but your point seems reasonable, so I have no further words to dispatch at this point. >:

im just going to throw my 2 cents here and say this bill is crappoal IMO. i'm willing to bet some money that people are going to take advantage of this the wrong way and have some crazy ass effects . i also wanted to say that just because a person with more money and can buy pomegranate, shouldn't have to pay for hobo Joe. because Joe decides he wants health care and doesnt want to get a job and pay it him self. thats bull pomegranate he shouldnt be allow to get something free that isn't really necessary for way of life. as other said we as humans are OVER POPULATED, i say let me or hobo joe die if some type of fatal event happens and cant come out of it alive .