The awaited leeching debacle!

Cheating isn't a life feature. It's a practice, an option, an idea, if you will.

Sorry but this argument isn't cutting it. Also, disregarding the fact that Nexon's word means less to me than my perpetually-thieving sister's, the fact that they aren't even close to being impartial (they benefit MASSIVELY from leechers) makes their stance on this subject pretty shady. Like AIG executives on bonuses.

Of course, Nexon is trying to earn money. But if you're stating that they're impartial because they earn money off leechers, then we can use the same argument against hacking. Which is quite wrong, I think. People can go around and hack, stating that "Nexon's word means less nothing to me, because Nexon loses money of hacking and is thus impartial". The argument is the same, is it not?

Edit: And for your reference, I am not for leeching, but I've accepted it. As Nexon has said that leeching is okay, I cannot counter it with any reasonable argument without including some sort of paradox or fallacy. As far as I know.

You could always state that in your opinion, leeching is illegal. But your opinion does not affect others, because the only "opinion" that matters are Nexon's rules whenever it comes to banning and not banning.

Edit2: If I recall correctly, AIG used money from their bailout on vacations and parties, correct? I'm not quite sure whether they had to sign some papers stating that they would have to use it on recovering the business or not, so I don't really have enough information (or know enough about the case) to say anything about it.

Go look up the difference between a fact and an opinion.

I'm not going to dignify it with a response when, as I've already stated, it's irrelivent.

It's not irrelevant at all. Nexon doesn't support leeching; in fact, they openly express that they look down upon it. They understand that they can't enforce a rule against leeching. Nexon does not label leeching as "wrong", but to think that it's a FACT that they support it just because there's no rule against it would be avoiding the obvious.

Bah. We all know leeching was never a big issue before the "oops that went a little to hell" release of the very much beloved ultimates. The party exp formula could not be abused so heavily before. So what does Nexon end up with? Basically two options, namely
A) Nerf ultimates, and we all know what a shitstorm that would whip up.
B) Appeal to the gamers by saying it is wrong to leech because that is missing out on the actual game. We all know they wouldn't be able to enforce a total prohibition.
That gave them time to tinker out a new formula without having to directly attack a class and its skills. I'm not happy with this change because I feel the adventurers should get their skills balanced instead, but it sure is better than having lots of lazy goons running around like headless hens at the higher lvls.

Of course, Nexon is trying to earn money. But if you're stating that they're impartial because they earn money off leechers, then we can use the same argument against hacking. Which is quite wrong, I think. People can go around and hack, stating that "Nexon's word means less nothing to me, because Nexon loses money of hacking and is thus impartial". The argument is the same, is it not?

Of course, and that actually seems true to me. See, the fact that Nexon allows leeching is proof of their impartiality. If they wanted people to be allowed to power level they should allow people to do whatever they want. I don't see how letting one person sit on a rope gaining experience for doing nothing is any different than having someone sucking up a bunch of monsters and allowing a third party program to do the work. Of course, it would be much more difficult to find and punish leechers, but I think the general idea is clear. You can't punish people for causing you to lose money while people who are doing essentially the same thing go scott-free because they're making you money.

Edit: And for your reference, I am not for leeching, but I've accepted it. As Nexon has said that leeching is okay, I cannot counter it with any reasonable argument without including some sort of paradox or fallacy. As far as I know.

You could always state that in your opinion, leeching is illegal. But your opinion does not affect others, because the only "opinion" that matters are Nexon's rules whenever it comes to banning and not banning.

I don't really feel it's necessary to put "imo" at the end of every post because it should be clear that on topics like this, it's everyone's opinion. Unless I'm citing a dozen sources and saying FACT at the end of a post it's pretty clear that it's my opinion.

Poast

What I still have yet to hear anything about, is how is this harming you in anyway. Is your life being threatened? Are your rights being diminished? What it is that's harming you so much?

I'm past the point where leechers take my map.
I'm past the point where any sane person would leech their own character to.
I train alone.

Total impact on me either way it goes: 0

What I still have yet to hear anything about, is how is this harming you in anyway. Is your life being threatened? Are your rights being diminished? What it is that's harming you so much?

How about you read the thread before posting?

It's not irrelevant at all. Nexon doesn't support leeching; in fact, they openly express that they look down upon it. They understand that they can't enforce a rule against leeching. Nexon does not label leeching as "wrong", but to think that it's a FACT that they support it just because there's no rule against it would be avoiding the obvious.

I never once said Nexon supports leeching. I did say, however, that they condone it. There are plenty of ways that they can fix the problem with leeching without having to change the entire formula though.

Please show me specific cases since they released the announcement Eos posted. For you to act like you know the ins and outs of every Nexon employees mind is just wrong. You have no real way of knowing what they think, and the thought processes leading to their opinions.

Of course, and that actually seems true to me. See the fact that Nexon allows leeching is proof of their impartiality. If they wanted people to be allowed to power level they should allow people to do whatever they want. I don't see how letting one person sit on a rope gaining experience for doing nothing is any different than having someone sucking up a bunch of monsters and allowing a third party program to do the work. Of course, it would be much more difficult to find and punish leechers, but I think the general idea is clear. You can't punish people for causing you to lose money while people who are doing essentially the same thing go scott-free because they're making you money.

Then what are you saying? Does this mean that you mean that "Leeching is wrong, because Nexon is impartial, and their word does not matter, and Nexon confirms that there are no rules against leeching." and that "Hacking is right, because Nexon is impartial, and their words does not matter, and Nexon confirms that there are rules against hacking?"

And, of course you can punish people for causing you to lose money while people who are doing essentially the same thing go scott-free because they're making you money. Whenever you're not paying your taxes on work, but putting them on your bank account, you're essentially doing the same thing.

I never once said Nexon supports leeching. I did say, however, that they condone it. There are plenty of ways that they can fix the problem with leeching without having to change the entire formula though.

Please show me specific cases since they released the announcement Eos posted. For you to act like you know the ins and outs of every Nexon employees mind is just wrong. You have no real way of knowing what they think, and the thought processes leading to their opinions.

Well it would take an ignorant buffoon to miss the fact that the Nexon post about leeching held values about it.

How about you read the thread before posting?

Specifics, pl0x.

Someone define a legit player for me, please. I do not see why leechers can be considered illegitimate.

Then what are you saying? Does this mean that you mean that "Leeching is wrong, because Nexon is impartial, and their word does not matter, and Nexon states that it is ok to leech." and that "Hacking is right, because Nexon is impartial, and their words does not matter, and Nexon states that it is wrong to hack?"

And, of course you can punish people for causing you to lose money while people who are doing essentially the same thing go scott-free because they're making you money. Whenever you're not paying your taxes on work, but putting them on your bank account, you're essentially doing the same thing.

It's not okay to do either, that's my point. Leeching and hacking are essentially the same, and they should both be punished. Nexon's impartiality on the subject makes their opinion invalid.

And no, you can't treat people differently for doing the same negative thing just because one is beneficial to you. That's why people who put money in the bank without paying taxes GO TO JAIL FOR TAX EVASION.

Well it would take an ignorant buffoon to miss the fact that the Nexon post about leeching held values about it.

"You're only cheating yourself" is actually considered a statement of indifference equivalent to "no skin off my nose", "not my problem", or "your loss, not mine".

If the attacks and disrespect towards each other continue I am closing this thread. You don't have to attack another poster personally to disagree with them.

It's not okay to do either, that's my point. Leeching and hacking are essentially the same, and they should both be punished. Nexon's impartiality on the subject makes their opinion invalid. Look at the AIG executives.

And no, you can't treat people differently for doing the same thing just because one is beneficial to you. That's why people who put money in the bank without paying taxes GO TO JAIL FOR TAX EVASION.

I think you need to explain what is essentially the same and what is not essentially the same. Leeching and hacking is not essentially the same for me. But if they are, then I could say that walking out of a store with an item you bought is the same that walking out of a store with an item you did not buy is essentially the same. Because what is the difference, apart from the fact that the store loses money?

You don't have to attack another poster personally to disagree with them.

Too late.

I also fail to see how hacking = leeching. Hacking is the use of 3rd party programs to enhance one's experience in a game. Leeching is benefiting off of another (and, in Maple's case, for a price which one ultimately has to earn).

It's not okay to do either, that's my point. Leeching and hacking are essentially the same, and they should both be punished. Nexon's impartiality on the subject makes their opinion invalid.

And no, you can't treat people differently for doing the same negative thing just because one is beneficial to you. That's why people who put money in the bank without paying taxes GO TO JAIL FOR TAX EVASION.

Back to Greg's "cheating on wife and half-assing job" example. He says that those things are wrong. You're saying that people should go to jail for them, because they're just as morally reprehensible as any fellony. I'm saying that while those things don't make you any more admirable, you certainly shouldn't force everyone to agree with you.

I think you need to explain what is essentially the same and what is not essentially the same. Leeching and hacking is not essentially the same for me. But if they are, then I could say that walking out of a store with an item you bought is the same that walking out of a store with an item you did not buy is essentially the same. Because what is the difference, apart from the fact that the store loses money?

Accidentally stealing and stealing are the same. Except that when you accidentally steal and find out, the chances of you realising what you did was wrong and going back are much greater. Neither leechers or hackers have that much of a conscience though.

Let's see, how are leeching and hacking the same...
Power leveling without needing to be at the computer? Check.
Making maps unusable for other people? Check.
Making Nexon money? Leechers: check. Hackers: Nope.

I dunno, I can't think of any other examples, but that pretty much sums it up.

But as a very extreme argument, do you think that paying someone to kill your lover makes you less guilty than if you killed them yourself? Same result, different means. Still bad.

Accidentally stealing and stealing are the same. Except that when you accidentally steal and find out, the chances of you realising what you did was wrong and going back are much greater. Neither leechers or hackers have that much of a conscience though.

Let's see, how are leeching and hacking the same...
Power leveling without needing to be at the computer? Check.
Making maps unusable for other people? Check.

I dunno, I can't think of anything else that either of them do.

But as a very extreme argument, do you think that paying someone to kill your lover makes you less guilty than if you killed them yourself? Same result, different means. Still bad.

It would help if you stopped using the "death" argument for once.
Does leeching result in people dying? No. It may result in people BAWWWWWWing over a game, but it doesn't result in people dying. Do you lose your life over a video game? If you do, you're pretty sad. "Paying someone to kill your lover" and "Leeching to level quickly" are two completely different arguments.

But as a very extreme argument, do you think that paying someone to kill your lover makes you less guilty than if you killed them yourself? Same result, different means. Still bad.

By that logic paying someone else to kill your mobs for you makes you just as law abiding as doing it yourself.

you... you guys do know you can still leech right :f6:... you just can't get to 120 in a day....

this formula doesn't kill leeching or make you unable to leech... it just makes leeching extremely slower to the point it's no longer (IMO) game breaking/damaging