Character worth

arent we debating right now?

arent we debating right now?

Yes?

I just thought you meant saying "everyone is welcome to their opinion" as "you think what you want, I think what I want, we can all think we're right all by ourselves", and I think for things like this an opinion is only as good as the facts that back it up.

edit: I'm going to edit a few more points into my earlier post.

Yes?

I just thought you meant saying "everyone is welcome to their opinion" as "you think what you want, I think what I want, we can all think we're right all by ourselves", and I think for things like this an opinion is only as good as the facts that back it up.

i am not home right now, but i shall play with dps and stuff when i get there after work (which i should go back to). however i just want to put thos out there.

my boywife kayako (176 corsair) and myself have been doing zakum arm solos for exp, i must say its damn good too. he takes 25minutes to kill them all while i take 45. he does have a few more attack than me but it does not warant 20 more minutes of killing. except their damage is extremely higher than ours, i am pretty sure an equally leveled and geared BM or hero can do it faster too.

point being MM dps on 1 target is pretty sad, we are still using strafe which as much as i like it is still sub par compared to other 4th job main attacking skills.

i am going to say this once more since people think i dont like MM. i love my MM and i woulnt trade it for any other class, however i am realistic and i admit we are not first tier damage dealers. sure on bosses that deff up and super deff up we add a little extra with sexy snipe but its not really that much to be considered "awesome damage". that said nothing makes me weter than stealing WB at HT with snipe on them heads.

edit: read your edit about training. i dont even use strafe much anymore, DB, pierce and snipe do most of the killing and FP keeps me off harms way. i do love training my MM and i wish we had a 6 part boss that we could pierce to death.

We are not the best single target damage dealers at upper levels and I never meant to imply that, corsairs are quite a bit faster in the short term as long as their ship's not taking too much damage, but they don't seem like much fun to train. All that getting on and off the boat and reverse flashjumping looks annoying to do, and they don't get a sexy summon to freeze for them or any sort of mob manipulating skills like puppet and pkb/db. Not having the best single dps however does not make us sad but simply not the best, and we have SE which makes us invaluable at larger boss runs whether we are godly or totally poor. What we lack in single dps we make up for in (my idea of) fun and good solo + party training.

that said nothing makes me weter than stealing WB at HT with snipe on them heads.

Ahh, the epic battles between Carlos and all of the peaches bishops at HT during s. Def up is quite ammusing. Followed by the screams and yells on vent with random murachi (k, I have no pineappleing idea how to spell this) music playing in the background...good times

Edit: Ty Chameleonic ~

strike

I dont think I need to add much, Carlos has taken my baton.

i am not home right now, but i shall play with dps and stuff when i get there after work (which i should go back to). however i just want to put thos out there.

my boywife kayako (176 corsair) and myself have been doing zakum arm solos for exp, i must say its damn good too. he takes 25minutes to kill them all while i take 45. he does have a few more attack than me but it does not warant 20 more minutes of killing. except their damage is extremely higher than ours, i am pretty sure an equally leveled and geared BM or hero can do it faster too.

I think the average corsair should have less att than the average MM. He's probably just a lot better equipped than you. I have a good range lead on Danmakurain, (he's only 2 lvls higher than me) and he still out-DPS's me by a good margin. Besides, it's pretty well known that corsairs are the best DPS'ers in the game, but that doesn't make MM DPS BAD.

As for the BM and hero comments, I'm pretty sure an equally funded BM would only be slightly faster (2~4 mins tops?) and of course a Hero is faster cuz he can hit multiple arms. (But heroes do less DPS on body; Brandish isnt the best 1v1 skill. If anything, the only thing that makes Heroes good at zak, besides the arms, is their ability to pretty much ignore mobs, whereas with us single target DPSers, mobs get in the way. Well except 'sairs, cuz of adv. homing. But that's yet another reason why their DPS is so sick.)

when it takes me 45 mins to do what a corsair on the same level can do in 25 i know you all just living on dreams.

those extra 2 seconds mean a LOT for our dps. and you say 7 but you forget its actually 5-10 which means you only look at the snipe cooldown or you look at whats going on in your screen.

i am not looking down at MM you guys just have no idea what our reality is like

I have Air Strike. It has the same cooldown as Snipe. It never takes 10 seconds.

Without Snipe at all a MM does 70-75% as much damage as a BM with the same gear. With 1 Snipe every 10 Strafes unappled it should be 85% +- a few depending on equips and stuff. I know with Apples MMs take a huge hit, but they're not awful. Strafe only is still considered middle of the road as far as DPS goes (beating Shads/Buccs/Pallys on neutral or ice weak/NLs without SE/Corsairs with RF). They're just not up to par with the other ranged classes.

I think the average corsair should have less att than the average MM. He's probably just a lot better equipped than you. I have a good range lead on Danmakurain, (he's only 2 lvls higher than me) and he still out-DPS's me by a good margin. Besides, it's pretty well known that corsairs are the best DPS'ers in the game, but that doesn't make MM DPS BAD.

As for the BM and hero comments, I'm pretty sure an equally funded BM would only be slightly faster (2~4 mins tops?) and of course a Hero is faster cuz he can hit multiple arms. (But heroes do less DPS on body; Brandish isnt the best 1v1 skill. If anything, the only thing that makes Heroes good at zak, besides the arms, is their ability to pretty much ignore mobs, whereas with us single target DPSers, mobs get in the way. Well except 'sairs, cuz of adv. homing. But that's yet another reason why their DPS is so sick.)

i mean from equips other than weapons and skills, read between the lines. i am pretty dam well equiped if i must say so myself.

I have Air Strike. It has the same cooldown as Snipe. It never takes 10 seconds.

Without Snipe at all a MM does 70-75% as much damage as a BM with the same gear. With 1 Snipe every 10 Strafes unappled it should be 85% +- a few depending on equips and stuff. I know with Apples MMs take a huge hit, but they're not awful. Strafe only is still considered middle of the road as far as DPS goes (beating Shads/Buccs/Pallys on neutral or ice weak/NLs without SE/Corsairs with RF). They're just not up to par with the other ranged classes.

shads, buccs and pallys are pretty dam crappy anyways and no one should be proud to outdmg them. sair RF is actually 5% stronger than strafe and snipe if they have SE (ask alex he knows that stuff) and se less NLs are in the same group as the other 3.

alex and myself have timed snipe and air strike and it can go as high as 10 seconds, its is sad but true.

i mean from equips other than weapons and skills, read between the lines. i am pretty dam well equiped if i must say so myself.



shads, buccs and pallys are pretty dam crappy anyways and no one should be proud to outdmg them. sair RF is actually 5% stronger than strafe and snipe if they have SE (ask alex he knows that stuff) and se less NLs are in the same group as the other 3.

alex and myself have timed snipe and air strike and it can go as high as 10 seconds, its is sad but true.

I was talking about without SE. Why is SE always considered a given o_o

Snipe puts you past the other warriors.

I was talking about without SE. Why is SE always considered a given o_o

Snipe puts you past the other warriors.

Because outside of a solo, what realistic bossing party would be SE-less? :f6:

Because outside of a solo, what realistic bossing party would be SE-less? :f6:

Any party that doesn't have NLs?

Any party that doesn't have NLs?

Uhh, no? Even at zakum if we don't have a NL in our party we always make sure there is a BM or MM to SE everyone else. Just because it's most beneficial for NL's doesn't mean every other class shouldn't have it.

Uhh, no? Even at zakum if we don't have a NL in our party we always make sure there is a BM or MM to SE everyone else. Just because it's most beneficial for NL's doesn't mean every other class shouldn't have it.

Using a Cider instead of a Warrior Elixir makes a bigger difference to my damage than SE.

Edit: Oops that's not true, but SE barely adds more.

Uhh, no? Even at zakum if we don't have a NL in our party we always make sure there is a BM or MM to SE everyone else. Just because it's most beneficial for NL's doesn't mean every other class shouldn't have it.

Maybe archers just that common on Windia, but on Khaini at least someone to give SE isn't a given. I've attended zakums where I was the only one who had high leveled SE, some organizers actually ask for me to come to their boss runs mainly to provide it.

Maybe archers just that common on Windia, but on Khaini at least someone to give SE isn't a given. I've attended zakums where I was the only one who had high leveled SE, some organizers actually ask for me to come to their boss runs mainly to provide it.

Wow, really? Since 4th job I've almost never not-had SE. Granted, most of my time since 4th job was spent on a Bowmaster so I gave it to myself. However my Corsair has had SE since... forever. Carlos and I used a friend that quit as an SE mule in our early 7x (he was using it since 5x, actually) until Carlos got a good level of SE. Once he got SE, I had it every time I've been training ever since. I've had it on every non-solo boss run I've ever been to. SE is as common to me as booster.

And Cider adds 6k to my DPS while SE adds 8k (4k and 11k for RF). Just sayin.

 For Dusk

I know you don't consider this kind of stuff, but Octopus can actually add a pretty large amount of DPS to RF and Cannon. Even in unfavorable conditions, I found it adding at least 20k DPS to Rapid Fire and 15k to Cannon. Octo is our Snipe <3

Maybe archers just that common on Windia, but on Khaini at least someone to give SE isn't a given. I've attended zakums where I was the only one who had high leveled SE, some organizers actually ask for me to come to their boss runs mainly to provide it.

In Windia we just always make sure every party has a BM or MM. It's largely due to that we have a really good run organizer who sets parties, and if we're short we just toss a BM around. DPS is everything at bosses, even if it's just a little, it makes a notable difference over a 30-45 minute fight.

Wow, really? Since 4th job I've almost never not-had SE. Granted, most of my time since 4th job was spent on a Bowmaster so I gave it to myself. However my Corsair has had SE since... forever. Carlos and I used a friend that quit as an SE mule in our early 7x (he was using it since 5x, actually) until Carlos got a good level of SE. Once he got SE, I had it every time I've been training ever since. I've had it on every non-solo boss run I've ever been to. SE is as common to me as booster.

And Cider adds 6k to my DPS while SE adds 8k (4k and 11k for RF). Just sayin.

 For Dusk

I know you don't consider this kind of stuff, but Octopus can actually add a pretty large amount of DPS to RF and Cannon. Even in unfavorable conditions, I found it adding at least 20k DPS to Rapid Fire and 15k to Cannon. Octo is our Snipe <3

That's because you two are friends and you train together all the time

And NLs are very common at boss runs, and they pretty much require SE to function, so of course they'd need an archer there.

I don't like how people assume that SE is always provided because I see R> archer for Zak in BL/Alliance often enough to know that you actually do need a person to fill a character slot to have it, and that they are not always available. Maybe it's just because I'm a Corsair and I don't even care enough make sure I have buffs when I attack to recruit archers into everything I do.

NLs are very common at boss runs, and they pretty much require SE to function.

Come on now, while SE is great, its not like it makes or breaks our damage on single targets.
Somebody should just shoot the DPS freaks... Start adding math and any dang game gonna become boring and serious. (Yes I have a degree in history as well as religion, clearly I loath math xP)

Come on now, while SE is great, its not like it makes or breaks our damage on single targets.
Somebody should just shoot the DPS freaks... Start adding math and any dang game gonna become boring and serious. (Yes I have a degree in history as well as religion, clearly I loath math xP)

TT without SE does comparable damage to a MM doing Strafe only or a Corsair doing RF only (and in most cases it actually does less).

If MMs are weak enough compared to BMs to be considered bad, NLs are only worse.

Edit: Although I do DPS calcs and comparisons a lot, I'm far from a DPS freak. I try to use math to disprove false notions that people have about the game.