BM vs MM after KMST updates

What the heck is JNPT? Is that one of the new training grounds inside CWK?

0_0 seriously? If you spend 10 minutes browsing the newtie maps in Bera, you're bound to see people saying R> JNPT or J> JNPT.

People have called it JNPT since Leafre came out.

Wow you train slow...I already get faster exp by JNPTing than leechers as a 12x Corsair o_o

Yes I do...I'm stuck soloing for 5mil exp an hour at CG which is the best solo exp I've found...that Bishop I know gets around 30mill an hour while his leeching lv 153 Corsair gets 16mil an hour...there's no way I can get close to that.

He said he going to get his Bishop to lv 200 and in the process his Corsair will get to about lv 180 when he's reached lv 200...just from leeching. What a broken game Maple is...

Would higher atk xbow's be enough to make up the difference? Then throwing in that 200k snipe.

With the difference being 380 to 500(Hurricane) , I guess so.

Say 150 vs. 170 total atk (eg. 126 Neschere/106 Nisrck) brings it up to 460 to 500. Then the 15 Snipes per minute have to deal the damage of the other 40 arrows. (meaning 3 arrows each). If it's only 150 to 160, drop that to 433:500, for 4 extra arrows each.

So if your average per arrow is under 50k and you have 20 more atk it's not unreasonable to say Marksmen would end up stronger. If we keep the 100k cap and only have 10 more atk, it's an average of 20k.


Since each arrow averages 232%, those are base ranges under 8600 (possible to breakk with Apples) and 21500 (unlikely).

So yeah, SI makes the Marksmen stronger. But you also lose out 1 attacker. Assuming the 1 target damage thread is reasonably accurate, Buccaneers do about 70% the damage of a Bowmaster. Meaning 5x Bowmaster party -> 1x Buccaneer + 4x Marksmen needs an extra 8% damage per Marksmen just to balance out the Buccaneer.

So I'd look for about 110% damage with SI to make it worthwhile to bring Marksmen. This leads to +50 on the arrows, for 6/Snipe = 28k per arrow = 12300 average base. With the Marksman still 13% ahead on w.atk of course.

If you can get a Bowmaster over 12k base it's better than even 200k/4s snipe. I believe this is marginally possible now, using Apples - you only need a 21 glove and Bow+Cape+Shoe adding to 147 atk.

Yes I do...I'm stuck soloing for 5mil exp an hour at CG which is the best solo exp I've found...that Bishop I know gets around 30mill an hour while his leeching lv 153 Corsair gets 16mil an hour...there's no way I can get close to that.

He said he going to get his Bishop to lv 200 and in the process his Corsair will get to about lv 180 when he's reached lv 200...just from leeching. What a broken game Maple is...

no kidding <_< the leecher should get no exp after so much time of just sitting there and not attacking. Thatd put a big ass monkey wrench into the leeching business. Thats why i like killing with a AM/Bishop attacking, and its better exp than rope humping.


@ Stereo: How are you losing an attacker? Buccs are great attackers even at newties from what ive seen and heard.

unles you mean purely at bosses.

@ Stereo: How are you losing an attacker? Buccs are great attackers even at newties from what ive seen and heard.

unles you mean purely at bosses.

Yes at bosses, and in any case HP caps limit the amount of damage Snipe can do anywhere else. Highest is 120k, second highest is (afaik) 85k.

At Skelegons, any Bowmaster with over 5300 average base will outdo Strafe+Snipe marksman.

Yes I do...I'm stuck soloing for 5mil exp an hour at CG which is the best solo exp I've found...that Bishop I know gets around 30mill an hour while his leeching lv 153 Corsair gets 16mil an hour...there's no way I can get close to that.

He said he going to get his Bishop to lv 200 and in the process his Corsair will get to about lv 180 when he's reached lv 200...just from leeching. What a broken game Maple is...

Well, yes, Bishops get good XP, but grinding to 200?

The reason I stopped playing Bishop was because by 160 I was slowly going insane. Stand on the same place, get knocked by the Newtie, go back to the same place, spam Gen, rinse, lather, repeat until YOUR BRAIN DIES. I dunno, games are supposed to be "fun." I think I'd rather have "fun" than lvl 200 minus my poor brain.

Yes at bosses, and in any case HP caps limit the amount of damage Snipe can do anywhere else. Highest is 120k, second highest is (afaik) 85k.

At Skelegons, any Bowmaster with over 5300 average base will outdo Strafe+Snipe marksman.

wait why would BM's outdo MM's while training? :f6:. I guess if you just do strafe/snipe then yea, but MM can pierce/freeze too.

for pierce to be really effective, we also need 21 DB. add another 7 levels of skills to get before MMs are good.
so, so far we're up to 167 and don't forget getting mw, since MMs are less welcomed at parties than BMs, which means you're more likely to solo. that's another 6 levels.

to answer your starting post: you need to level a marksman to 173 to have fun playing, whereas the BM only needs to be high 14x at most. oh yeah, by the time 17x rolls around most people have quit.

in other words, BMs will always be chosen over MMs because you get gratification easier and faster.

so, the main point of this is to bring MMs up to par with BMs at bossing, sounds fine to me, its always better ot have a backup person who can deal a lot of damage when a BM isnt around.

On training side, id also say we are about even. Again, on FMS, soloing was pretty easy killing and (tho the increased exp rates may mess it a bit) the training speed was pretty fast.

With the difference being 380 to 500(Hurricane) , I guess so.

Say 150 vs. 170 total atk (eg. 126 Neschere/106 Nisrck) brings it up to 460 to 500. Then the 15 Snipes per minute have to deal the damage of the other 40 arrows. (meaning 3 arrows each). If it's only 150 to 160, drop that to 433:500, for 4 extra arrows each.

So if your average per arrow is under 50k and you have 20 more atk it's not unreasonable to say Marksmen would end up stronger. If we keep the 100k cap and only have 10 more atk, it's an average of 20k.


Since each arrow averages 232%, those are base ranges under 8600 (possible to breakk with Apples) and 21500 (unlikely).

So yeah, SI makes the Marksmen stronger. But you also lose out 1 attacker. Assuming the 1 target damage thread is reasonably accurate, Buccaneers do about 70% the damage of a Bowmaster. Meaning 5x Bowmaster party -> 1x Buccaneer + 4x Marksmen needs an extra 8% damage per Marksmen just to balance out the Buccaneer.

So I'd look for about 110% damage with SI to make it worthwhile to bring Marksmen. This leads to +50 on the arrows, for 6/Snipe = 28k per arrow = 12300 average base. With the Marksman still 13% ahead on w.atk of course.

If you can get a Bowmaster over 12k base it's better than even 200k/4s snipe. I believe this is marginally possible now, using Apples - you only need a 21 glove and Bow+Cape+Shoe adding to 147 atk.

But if you more archers than 6-person parties, you can put marksmen in melee parties, who will also benefit from the extra SE.

So yeah, SI makes the Marksmen stronger. But you also lose out 1 attacker. Assuming the 1 target damage thread is reasonably accurate, Buccaneers do about 70% the damage of a Bowmaster. Meaning 5x Bowmaster party -> 1x Buccaneer + 4x Marksmen needs an extra 8% damage per Marksmen just to balance out the Buccaneer.

That's not exactly a good point because it doesn't always have to be about only dps; buccaneers can also offer 100% kb (barrage), mob control, and time leap.

But a stronger reason why that isn't necessarily a good point is that ranged classes are instantly made weaker at certain bosses due to the need for HB, while melee classes are not (eg. heroes). But ranged classes are still taken to those bosses.

But if you more archers than 6-person parties, you can put marksmen in melee parties, who will also benefit from the extra SE.

I don't think any DPS comparison can practically cover all the possibilities. The bottom line will still be that certain characters are irrationally preferred even if they aren't actually stronger, and there are only a finite number of players available at any time making "perfect" parties impossible, and calculations can't solve for that. If you happen to have a Buccaneer, DK, and Bishop in a party, then 3 Marksmen would be a better addition than 3 Bowmasters, I guess.

you need to level a marksman to 173 to have fun playing, whereas the BM only needs to be high 14x at most. oh yeah, by the time 17x rolls around most people have quit.

What? I'm having fun now.

In my opinion, it's less fun when you have all your skills maxed. All I have to look forward to now is Hamstring. Whoop dee doo.

for pierce to be really effective, we also need 21 DB. add another 7 levels of skills to get before MMs are good.

No you don't. Using DB and then charging is, in most cases, a waste; it's much better to charge while moving, and then simply try to hit as many enemies as possible when you come by them (example: while moving from the middle platform at skeles, I drop off at the right side of the map, and kill some lone skelegons there. While moving to the left side of the map, I charge piercing arrow. Usually, I'm able to hit at least 3-4 skelegons like this with a full charge even though I have 140 speed, which makes the piercing arrow shot better than anything else). Plus, 11 DB would be plenty for gathering mobs of 6; you just need to push 5 monsters next to another one, you don't need to actually push 6 of them around. Heck, even level 1 does a fine job of gathering mobs of 6.

to answer your starting post: you need to level a marksman to 173 to have fun playing, whereas the BM only needs to be high 14x at most. oh yeah, by the time 17x rolls around most people have quit.

Only if your definition of fun is having maxed all the (better) damage boosting skills.

In my opinion, it's less fun when you have all your skills maxed. All I have to look forward to now is Hamstring. Whoop dee doo.

Indeed. On the other hand, Blind does look convenient. >_>!

I love how the way I present the point gets countered, but not the point itself

But if you more archers than 6-person parties, you can put marksmen in melee parties, who will also benefit from the extra SE.

And who wouldn't benefit from HB, unless there's a DrK in the melee party.

@ Stereo
I'm not even entirely sure that SI can provide enough more than 8% to be practical. Assuming no Snipe, it should be around a 17% increase, so with it in the picture, it might drop down to 12% or something. That means that if there aren't 4 marksmen around to benefit from SI, and the slots would have to get filled by BMs or NLs instead, it might be better to just have a mixed BM/MM/NL party than a 4x MM + SI.

I love how the way I present the point gets countered, but not the point itself

I re-read your post several times and I still don't see what you mean. Seems like you have two different points in your post: that you need to be 173 to have fun as a marksman, and that bowmasters will always be chosen over marksmen because they get better in terms of damage faster than marksmen do. Yeah, I don't see how those are related.

?_?

the level number is just a way to present the point.

BMs get chosen over MMs because they only need to focus on one attack, and making that attack deal as much damage as possible, which happens in late 14x.
After the kms skill updates, we'll be pretty much on even grounds, who comes on top will depend on the specific situation at hand. Marksmen need a different combination of skills for different scenarios, but BMs are still a one key wonder. as a MM, to be able to adapt to all situations, you'll need to be higher level than a BM. hope I'm clear

You're quite clear, but it's completely different from what you said earlier. Maximising your attacking skill does not necessarily equal having the most fun, as has been already mentioned.