The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread

Rather than bring Genesis down (both in cast speed and base), why not bring Blizzard up? Rather than tell Bishops they should be weaker and slower, why not tell Mages they should be stronger and faster?

Incidentally, a Blizzard hitting with an Ice Wand is only a little short of Genesis hitting Holy-weak. That's great right? But wait! Why not just make Blizzard 25% stronger then and cut out the gach bullpumpernickel that makes all other weapons inconsiderable as endgame weapon.

Seriously, if they're going to do this weapon pumpernickel, they need to create scrolls like they did for shoes in El Nath or capes in El Nath. The ones that don't take up slots. Give people a way to get the 25% boost they need to make up for Nexon's failure to deliver good monsters WITHOUT making all other weapons pineappleing worthless.

Because Nexon is greedy, and if they can make a class spend a shitton on Gacha, they will.

Genesis to Meteo/Blizzard base attack is the same like Ice Strike to Shining Ray. After AMP both Blizzard and Meteor are 100 basic attack stronger than Genesis. Raising it to 7000 would not level the playing field, it'd just be BS to charge us for an AMP that we do not have.

Then why isn't it "BS" to give you extra basic attack from an Amp that you don't have?

I think anyone can be "strong" and anyone can be "weak." During the 2x Yollande event I finished at lvl 131 with a 2 dex bathrobe, 2 str stolen fence, clean ss, and a 3 below average clean black umbrella. I struggled every day just to afford potion money. Other people had much better equips than me, but they wasted time so I was stronger. Also, if you're a team-oriented player, you'll be friends with people who are perhaps more powerful than you, and the issue will be negated anyway.

High levels that I've met are usually -- not always but usually -- rich. If you're an Archmage saving up, you may eventually have enough for an Elemental staff and godly equips. Even if you don't, back in the day before 30% scrolls, people grinded with crappy scrolled weapons and without 2x and did just fine. The impression that you "must" have uber-godly weapons and damage is just an illusion created by Nexon in its eternal drive to get more of your money.

I think anyone can be "strong" and anyone can be "weak." During the 2x Yollande event I finished at lvl 131 with a 2 dex bathrobe, 2 str stolen fence, clean ss, and a 3 below average clean black umbrella. I struggled every day just to afford potion money. Other people had much better equips than me, but they wasted time so I was stronger. Also, if you're a team-oriented player, you'll be friends with people who are perhaps more powerful than you, and the issue will be negated anyway.

High levels that I've met are usually -- not always but usually -- rich. If you're an Archmage saving up, you may eventually have enough for an Elemental staff and godly equips. Even if you don't, back in the day before 30% scrolls, people grinded with crappy scrolled weapons and without 2x and did just fine. The impression that you "must" have uber-godly weapons and damage is just an illusion created by Nexon in its eternal drive to get more of your money.

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Not everyone use $ to get their stuff
some people are rich -in game- wich is enough[/COLOR]

Rather than bring Genesis down (both in cast speed and base), why not bring Blizzard up? Rather than tell Bishops they should be weaker and slower, why not tell Mages they should be stronger and faster?

I'm not suggesting those changes, just saying that if Genesis:Blizzard was like SR:IS, that's the stats Genesis would have. I think maybe it would be more equal to be 300% vs. 400% range on further reflection.
And yes I do think it's a matter of Bishops being "too strong, too fast" because just look at the top players. Nearly 60% are bishops at this point. No other class can come close to their training speed.

My personal feeling is that the ultimates should be on 40-60 second cooldowns, or heavily nerfed in damage. I don't like how they work, making them cost a lot of MP is hardly a good way to prevent people from casting them often. As mentioned, people train with them even in MSEA where pots cost 3x as much.

And yes, it would require a significant overhaul of the rest of the class skills, I have no idea how the current balance was determined but particularly Bishops do not have a diversity of training options.

Rather than bring Genesis down (both in cast speed and base), why not bring Blizzard up? Rather than tell Bishops they should be weaker and slower, why not tell Mages they should be stronger and faster?

Mages already train a hell of a lot faster than any other class in the game. Bishops train even faster. Why does it make more sense to further increase their damage with ultimates instead of nerfing Bishops?

My personal feeling is that the ultimates should be on 40-60 second cooldowns, or heavily nerfed in damage. I don't like how they work, making them cost a lot of MP is hardly a good way to prevent people from casting them often. As mentioned, people train with them even in MSEA where pots cost 3x as much.

And yes, it would require a significant overhaul of the rest of the class skills, I have no idea how the current balance was determined but particularly Bishops do not have a diversity of training options.

It's already been suggested. IMO, an 8 second cooldown and greatly reduced MP cost + higher basic attack on CL/Paralyze/AR/summons + more elemental monsters (particularly lit and poison) + an Infinity that costs 3500 MP to temporarily remove cooldown + rebalanced spell damage formula that favors MA over INT... would solve everything.

Well, almost everything.

Mages already train a hell of a lot faster than any other class in the game. Bishops train even faster. Why does it make more sense to further increase their damage with ultimates instead of nerfing Bishops?

Because what we're talking about is subclass balance, not balance within all classes. What we're talking about isn't "make Bishops and Mages balanced to everyone else", it's "make Mages balanced compared to Bishops".

And a cooldown wouldn't work at all for Bishops as their current skillset stands. Mages could slide by if their other skills get boosted up to accommodate, but no amount of reasonable boosting on AR would allow Bishops fair exp rates. As far as I can figure, Bishops would need a AoE attack, or perhaps something like the demons. In fact, something I would have liked to have seen (in the current skillset, that is), to be honest, would be AR working like Iron Arrow (and probably being made a little weaker to make up for it being AoE), but then again, that'd leave Bishops with their strongest single target DPS coming from Heal still and that'd be pineappleed up.

And Stereo, like I said before, the DPS per hit isn't even that amazing, the heavy hitter potential for these classes comes from the fact that we don't have to walk around to kill. A "heavy" weakening of the damage would be terrible. We'd all be hitting per hit DPSes of our 3rd job attacks or possibly even weaker. We'd be relying on hitting 15 things at once to deal good damage (i.e., to get the same ratio of 3rd job to 4th job that other classes get from their skills), and anything less than that, it wouldn't even be worth casting the attack for (and in case you didn't realize, hitting 15 at once isn't exactly a common occurrence). What you're suggesting would be to give us attacks that are as strong as our 3rd job attacks we've already mastered, but are way slower and their only saving grace being that they have a larger range and hit more at once. You don't think attacks for a higher job should be STRONGER? You think they should only have a larger range compared to the previous job's analogous attacks?

The only way to fairly affect the DPS on these attacks, I think, in regards to fairness for ALL classes that is, would be to make the attacks take an extra second or two. This, of course though, would be in addition to balancing them within the Magician class, making amp not activate, making the MP cost a fair medium (that is, higher than Bishop current, but probably lower than Mage's amp'd), and making each of the Magician's attacks have the SAME base. But then again, we'd still need for them to get off their ass and actually release balanced MONSTERS too.

And a cooldown wouldn't work at all for Bishops as their current skillset stands. Mages could slide by if their other skills get boosted up to accommodate, but no amount of reasonable boosting on AR would allow Bishops fair exp rates. As far as I can figure, Bishops would need a AoE attack, or perhaps something like the demons.

Night Lords combine a strong single target attack with high movement rates, low pot costs, and decent support skills, I don't see why Bishops can't be done the same. Boosting Angel Ray to do as much damage as a SE'd NightLord would be no more than Genesis is currently hitting, so I guess something like 600-700 base at max.

Of course Night Lords train nowhere near as fast as Bishops, I guess Bishops would have to wake up to the fact of not being broken anymore.

Night Lords combine a strong single target attack with high movement rates, low pot costs, and decent support skills, I don't see why Bishops can't be done the same. Boosting Angel Ray to do as much damage as a SE'd NightLord would be no more than Genesis is currently hitting, so I guess something like 600-700 base at max.

Of course Night Lords train nowhere near as fast as Bishops, I guess Bishops would have to wake up to the fact of not being broken anymore.

What you're suggesting is to make Bishops do nearly the highest single target damage.

Bishops would be taken to boss fights on the same grounds that other attacking classes would be. Bishops shouldn't be standing there at bosses holding down a single attack key the whole time. They shouldn't even have the option to. They should be healing, buffing, and only attacking if they have a moment to spare wherein they can attack without endangering themselves or their party.

This is why Bishops can't just have boosted AR. If you boost it to the levels that would allow them to use it effectively for grinding, they'd be strong and effective boss fighters, beyond that of other classes due to increased survivability (Bishops are the most survivable class in the whole game) and massive versatility (having the strongest single target attack paired with a massive fullscreen AoE that can hit 15 at once even with a cooldown).

And if you don't boost AR to the point where they'd be effective boss fighters, then AR wouldn't be strong enough to carry Bishops through 4th job.

Then bring back the idea of Bahamut casting party buffs (particularly heal/dispel) if it worked like the Beholder and would "save up" its skills until they were needed then it could be quite a powerful aid at bosses, also obviously there's a difference between the strongest (neutral) and strongest (holy) attack at bosses, just look at how Heroes are preferred over Paladins most of the time.

Anyway, with Apples, any training mage skill has no real chance of comparing to a bossing physical class unless it's 60-80% stronger in training.

Anyway, with Apples, any training mage skill has no real chance of comparing to a bossing physical class unless it's 60-80% stronger in training.

Except that Mage's fullscreen attacks allow them to match or surpass total DPS of all classes, assuming they can hit enough at once.

The issue Stereo raises with Apples is irrelevant. Apples are broken and unrelated to basic class mechanics. That issue can be resolved by nerfing Apples and giving APQ some other reward. I'm all for 25 att / 120 m. att or something similar.

Afrobean, you realize that, if the attacks were made to take an extra second or two, that would have the same effect on damage as giving the spells a cooldown of 5 seconds? They would be unable to move after casting in the scheme you speak of, though.

On the subject of buffing Angel Ray, how about turning it into a mob skill of some sort? It'd have to be fully thought out, but I'm sure that if it was turned into a forward mob skill it would be much more practical for Bishops to use. I think Bishops should be able to kill monsters at a decent speed without Genesis, but at the same time they should be given incentive to party for more exp.

The issue Stereo raises with Apples is irrelevant. Apples are broken and unrelated to basic class mechanics. That issue can be resolved by nerfing Apples and giving APQ some other reward. I'm all for 25 att / 120 m. att or something similar.

Yep.

Afrobean, you realize that, if the attacks were made to take an extra second or two, that would have the same effect on damage as giving the spells a cooldown of 5 seconds? They would be unable to move after casting in the scheme you speak of, though.

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that the attack animation would also last longer. Simply not being able to use the attack as often is lame, but if the animation could be made a tiny bit longer and/or more epic, I'd be all for it (assuming it was balanced between Mages and Bishops which the current one is not).

On the subject of buffing Angel Ray, how about turning it into a mob skill of some sort? It'd have to be fully thought out, but I'm sure that if it was turned into a forward mob skill it would be much more practical for Bishops to use. I think Bishops should be able to kill monsters at a decent speed without Genesis, but at the same time they should be given incentive to party for more exp.

Yeah, that could work, but like I said above, it would leave Bishops with their strongest single target DPS coming from Heal, and I personally think that's stupid. Maybe if they turned AR into Iron Arrow-like (and make AR a little weaker to compensate), and made Holy Shield do a single target attack basically as strong as AR is now (but then again, they'd have to adjust the effect/cooldown system ugh).

Really, this pomegranate is just messed up. The BEST thing to do really would be to scrap the whole thing and rebuild it right, but that has even less of a chance of happening than our suggested tweaks to the current system.

I personally don't like the idea of turning AR into a holy CL or Pierce. It just doesn't fit the essence of the skill. Maybe 2 monsters at most; 320 base attack on the monster hit by the arrow, 240 on the closest thing behind it. That way, its power is effectively doubled without making it a real "mob" skill.

If we reduce Genesis's casting time by a second or so, and give it a cooldown of 5 seconds, you're still going to be able to cast Genesis every 5 seconds. It's just that, instead of casting 2 Genesis in that time (and depleting 7k MP), you cast 1 Genesis and 4 AR. 4 AR is roughly hitting 4 monsters with Genesis. Plus, since you're only decimating the spawn half as often, your one Genesis every 5 seconds actually ends up hitting more than the average spammed Genesis would.

(And if you lengthened Genesis, you wouldn't even have time to cast those 4 AR. You're nerfing your own class now.)

Ultimates aren't going to be made useless by a single-digit cooldown. It just forces them to be used in conjunction with other skills, not spammed from a single spot.

On a side note, how would Bishops' best single-target DPS be Heal? SR is stronger in 3rd job, and doesn't fall much behind as you progress through 4th. Even if AR were made a fully mob attack that hit 6, it would at any rate have a higher base attack than SR, right?

Heal beats SR on smaller amounts of mobs (especially 1) due to it's high cast rate. SR can hit harder and is more consistent (that is to say, it's min is a lot closer to it's max), but Heal's speed alone allows for higher DPS on smaller mobs.

And perhaps AR would be able to beat it, but again, the cast rate on Heal would still be MUCH higher. I haven't done any math on it, but I wouldn't guess that AR could function as a fair AoE and still maintain higher single target DPS than Heal. Only reason Heal can get the fair single target DPS it can as a AoE is because it has a different damage formula that makes it hit less for every additional mob.

I've run the calculations. SR has better single target DPS than Heal up to level 120 or so, then Heal surpasses it because of its more quadratic nature. It even beats the current AR on neutral undeads as you approach level 200. But (thankfully?) there aren't many neutral undeads.

Anyway, 320 base to the first monster (which is what I proposed) is more DPS than the current, which is 240. It'd be better than the current one in any situation, whether soloing bosses or training.

im all for a small bishop nerf. i can play my bishop and 2 hit skeles, but as much as its fun dominating, id rather see myself with more versatile attacks, not jus standing around pushing 1 button all day. bishops do have a better time at bosses , infact who doesnt want hs at a big boss? but for arch mages? chain light should be buffed to do about 70k on neutral and 90k on light weak bosses. that wouldnt make mages broken. in fact i bet the avg 13x nl can hit up to around 70k with jus TT+sp alone. no apples at all.

im saying we could bring bishops slightly down, cuz they pretty much excel at training and bossing, and arch mages slightly up.. i mean jesus the only skills a arch mage really needs to max is blizzard or meteor. make the other skills more useful ffs, not just bring it to blizz,pot,blizz,pot. buff all of the non ultimate skills by like 4x and then you've got something.

Not sure why there's even comparisons made here...

First of all, now that there's elemental weapons out, technically Blizzard + Meteo have the potential to be extremely powerful almost everywhere they're used.

There are powerful bishops out there that crack 70k to neutral monsters, but they're either extremely high level or they have equips that cost billions. I've managed to crack 76k with blizzard at lvl 164 with cheap elemental staves and other lack-luster equips. Not to mention I'm not even lukless.

You can look at youtube also. Look for the lvl 196 I/L Arch mage training at Duku's. She does 99,999's almost all the time and they're not even weak to ice. I don't think we'll ever see a bishop manage that.

So at low levels, Genesis is elementally advantageous in the best training spots. Blizzard can freeze making it safer. Meteo is just shafted (lol).

At high levels, Blizzard and Meteo are more versitile as they really don't NEED elemental advantages anymore like Genesis tends to need even in to the lvl 170's.

If I was a billionair like some of the strongest bishops I've seen, I could simply get the lvl 130 Ice wand with MW 20 and some other miscellanous equips and quite easily break 85k to skelegons OHKO'ing some of them even at lvl 16x. 10 levels later I'd come very close to hitting max damage.

I don't want to say any Ultimate is "BETTER" than another because it simplifies it too much.

Answer: Depends on extraneous variables.

im all for a small bishop nerf. i can play my bishop and 2 hit skeles, but as much as its fun dominating, id rather see myself with more versatile attacks, not jus standing around pushing 1 button all day. bishops do have a better time at bosses , infact who doesnt want hs at a big boss? but for arch mages? chain light should be buffed to do about 70k on neutral and 90k on light weak bosses. that wouldnt make mages broken. in fact i bet the avg 13x nl can hit up to around 70k with jus TT+sp alone. no apples at all.

im saying we could bring bishops slightly down, cuz they pretty much excel at training and bossing, and arch mages slightly up.. i mean jesus the only skills a arch mage really needs to max is blizzard or meteor. make the other skills more useful ffs, not just bring it to blizz,pot,blizz,pot. buff all of the non ultimate skills by like 4x and then you've got something.

I definitely agree. Though then what you're doing is displacing Heroes and Bowmasters by breaking the ArchMage classes even further, making them the best in the game at training and upper, not high, tier at bossing.

Afrobean posted something on SW a while back for ArchMages that I really liked: actually make some of their skills effective on bosses. The whole point of the Magician branch in this game is to provide unique skills and effects in a game ruled by who can throw more stars, shoot more arrows, and do it all with stronger equips. Magician's are MEANT to do other things, to provide color to the recipe, if you will.

For that reason Afro's idea of making skills like Seal, Fire Demon, Poison, etc., work on bosses is FANTASTIC. Take Seal for example. On normal monsters it renders their magic casting capabilities null, making them essentially walking touch-damage dealers. On bosses, you could make the skill work where it has a lower % rate of working (somewhere around 40% at max, like SE) to prevent a boss from using certain skills for a certain period of time. For example, take an ArchMage at Horntail with max Seal. They use it, the 40% chance works, and for 10 seconds Horntail can't use Seduce, can't Def up or Mdef up, can't stun, can't dispel, and can't summon.

Of course that might be too large of a list for bosses, and the threshold of balance and broken engineering can quickly be crossed by increasing an effective time or increasing % chance of working, as more ArchMage's would mean more times a boss is rendered useless. But it's an interesting concept to build upon, and I'm sure ArchMage's that can do SOMETHING of that kind to prevent mass deaths of main Ranged/Melee classes at bosses would be quite appreciated in high-magnitude runs.

Similarly, you could use a Fire Demon thing where the skill has a % chance of working for an x amount of time, eliminating resistances and giving the boss Ice-weakness. Or the skill could do a reduced DoT effect on bosses, increasing a Magician's DPS without having them have to summon hulking creatures.

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We don't HAVE to raise or lower or change "broken" skills as they are now. The key thing to note, and this is me playing the devil's advocate, is to question what would happen if we DID make ultimates on cooldown time table, make them weaker, but make Magicians a "6-mob max killing machine." Question whether you would WANT to take that kind of incapacitated Magician in a training party over another Night Lord, or another Bowmaster, or whatnot. In reality while you may think it would be best to "unbreak" these skills as they are, doing so may actually make ArchMages and Bishops SO unwanted for training parties that there cease to be any left in the game.

If you want to change something so drastic as this, you must cover all of your bases. Think beyond the benefits you may receive for balancing out training amongst classes and see the realities of party formations. Would doubling the base power of a single-target spell actually help it? As addressed earlier Night Lords on apples can still out-DPS this kind of damage change, and that' simply because weapon damage formulas are so much more advantageous than magic damage formulas, a topic totally beyond this post.

I guess in the end just THINK about what you are proposing and just how such a proposition may affect tons of parts of the game, because right now I see a lot of ideas created out of hatred for broken Bishops, unchecked in how devastating they may actually be.