HiSTORY HAS BEEN MADE!!!!

The absolutely last thing we need is socialized healthcare. Socialism as a whole was an utter failure, why would you want it for your pineappleing health.... If you want the dam socialized healthcare so much, get the pineapple outta the USA and go to a country that has socialized healthcare, youll give up all your freedom just to truly sit and wait for the smallest of care from a doctor.


Reading up some posts, tear your visa up....

Well. first of all I AM outside of the u.s. gonna move back in a few years ( half decade or so ) to get into poltiics . but yeah. I enjoy my healthcare system very much over here. as for socialism being a failure.
it all depends on how its interperated.

however. if you think the soviet union was a communist country you'd better go read some more on communism. truth be told theres never been a communist country. not 1 , not ever.
although if we don't bomb ourselves into oblivion in the next 2 hundred years or so I'd expect to see a single world government where the government is reduced to a bare machine that provides resources, housing and other nessesities .

im just going to throw my 2 cents here and say this bill is crappoal IMO. i'm willing to bet some money that people are going to take advantage of this the wrong way and have some crazy ass effects . i also wanted to say that just because a person with more money and can buy pomegranate, shouldn't have to pay for hobo Joe. because Joe decides he wants health care and doesnt want to get a job and pay it him self. thats bull pomegranate he shouldnt be allow to get something free that isn't really necessary for way of life. as other said we as humans are OVER POPULATED, i say let me or hobo joe die if some type of fatal event happens and cant come out of it alive .

I'm glad you'd wish another person to die solely because you care more about your money than his life.

Just to point out, if someone currently does not have health insurance, and they go to the emergency room, they are required by law to be treated. An emergency room can not turn someone away for not having insurance. And if they can't pay those bills, guess who sucks up the costs.

So before you go on to say how you don't want to pay for health insurance/help others pay for health insurance. Keep in mind you already are.
If you don't have insurance, you wont go in for checkups, preventative care etc when somethings wrong. You'll ignore it and wait till it becomes an emergency and an illness that could have been cleared up easily is now much worse, and much more expensive to treat.

For everyone bitching about socialism... you do realise your police and fire forces are "socialized", right? I guess if socialism is so bad you'd be fine with paying the police force to track down the person who mugged you, or to put out that fire in your house.

SOCIALISM IN THE UNITED STATES!

If what you've said were remotely true we'd not have a tiered tax system, social security, social security disability insurance, medicare, WIC, rehabilitation & wellfare of any other kind or any other socialism concepts.

For everyone bitching about socialism... you do realise your police and fire forces are "socialized", right? I guess if socialism is so bad you'd be fine with paying the police force to track down the person who mugged you, or to put out that fire in your house.

And to add to these lists of scary socialist services already productively running in the United States: public education, the postal service, public libraries.

Look at all of these facets of our American society. Would you like to lose any of them? They're socialist, so please, any argument you have against universal healthcare when specifically regarding it as socialist, I invite you to direct towards these fine institutions.

Oh, and let me throw this out there as well: funny how everyone who is complaining about the negative aspects of universal health care as they operate in other countries are all Americans. I have yet to see a resident of a country with socialized medicine condemn the institution. In fact, the even funnier thing is that if you talk to both liberals and conservatives in these countries (like Michael Moore did in Canada in Sicko), they all strongly support the system. Just saying.

One last comment: A LOT of argument has gone on regarding "lazy unemployed people taking advantage of government welfare checks." Here's all I have to say to that:

Proof? I've heard this contention for years now and have never seen one statistic or figure showing the number of people who truly fall into this category. Oh, and @ Canambo's comment earlier regarding people having "20 children for welfare checks": good joke. There's a middle-class American couple that recently made the People magazine cover again for having their 19th child. I think if lazy, unemployed mothers were trying to leech the welfare system by having 20+ children we'd have heard by now.

All people are whining about is losing money because they're greedy little asses.

Damn right. I don't have a job, and this shit would screw me over.
"Well then I guess they'll get more people into the work force"

By forcing them in? Fuck that. I don't leech off unemployment, so the government isn't paying my way of life.

Really and truly. You pay an otherwise unnoticeable tax amount for a new system that benefits just about everyone but me? LMAO.
The only people really being taxed are those who make more than $250,000 a year. Which is none of you, so why complain?

Fixed that for you.

That's not the point though. I HAVE to get this new care and PAY for this shit that I don't need. If I don't get it, I end up having to pay some sort of fee. 5 extra cents for every dollar I spend wouldn't really piss me off that much, and I'd eventually adjust to it. It wouldn't change my way of life, since I can still do what I do every day.

People get so upset about having to pay higher taxes.

Read above.

Oh well. Get over it. Those same people are going to be bi'tching when they lose their job in a few years and need health insurance.

I don't have a job, but I'm forced to pay for something I don't need. It's making me donate to some fundraiser I don't give a crap about.

You can't have everything you want guys. This is a good thing.

I dunno, my life was pretty much set for me. I had "everything I want" mostly on a governmental level before this.

I'm glad you'd wish another person to die solely because you care more about your money than his life.

Damn right. I don't know who he/she is, and I don't care. If you gave money to every suffering person you saw, you'd end up in poverty yourself. If they're close to me and I have the money? If I feel some sort of obligation to help them out I will. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

But, as I've been saying, the main problem here is me having to pay for care I don't want to pay for.

For everyone peaching about socialism... you do realise your police and fire forces are "socialized", right?

If you're referring to me, I never said I was against this, If you read my post somewhere above I said I wouldn't mind if my tax money was going to schools or the police force, or funding to keep the government up. That stuff is needed in a society in order for it to function properly. No free schools = hurpa durp generation. No police = well there goes my stuff.

Healthcare doesn't benefit me. I really couldn't care less if I contracted some dangerous disease tomorrow and couldn't pay off the bill for it. But you know what?

I guess if socialism is so bad you'd be fine with paying the police force to track down the person who mugged you, or to put out that fire in your house.

The police suck at tracking down muggers anyway, that's not a good example.

Funny how most people have no problem with taking unemployment or social security, which operate on the same basic premise, but you mention healthcare and everyone freaks.


Truth is you're already paying out the ass today for people who would rather sit at home than go to work just because they have a doctors note saying they have a disability and the government will pay them more than minimum wage (in addition to the people who legitimately are disabled, not saying everyone on SSI and SSDI fall into that category, but we all know some do and most of them readily admit it).
At least this tax hike actually accomplishes something that can benefit you tangibly.

I dunno, man, people seem to freak about unemployment as well. I don't leech off that though. My income comes from people who feel like supporting me. The tax in New York is something like 8 cents per dollar. That's not really a big cost to me. It adds up after a while, but I don't keep an eye on how much I'm losing for each purchase on tax alone. In my mind, I just think of the actual price of the item being slightly higher than what its advertised to be.

But you know what? I'm someone who's sitting at home and not going to work, but it'd be nice if I got an official note saying I was unfit to work. That's harder than it seems in the states though. I've heard that it's easier in other countries to just feign a mental issue and get set for life, but from what I hear that's kinda hard to accomplish in the US. If you're exempt from work in the US due to a disability, chances are that it's an actual disability.

Proof? I've heard this contention for years now and have never seen one statistic or figure showing the number of people who truly fall into this category.

I dunno, getting free money for a while seems pretty nice. Most people would probably take advantage of that until they can't get money anymore. There is a time limit on it, you know. My uncle didn't actually look for a job until his last month of unemployment, and got a job rather easily. He could have done that from the start and gotten a new job in the same month he lost his other job. Not that my uncle is everyone, but I'm sure a majority of people are similar. Unless they know they'll be screwed if they don't seriously look for a job, they'll probably enjoy the free money for a while before seriously looking for a job. Technically, these people aren't "unemployed" because it means that you're not in a job but actively looking to join the workforce. Unfortunately, there's no way for the government to tell if someone is truly looking for a job or not.

Oh, and @ Canambo's comment earlier regarding people having "20 children for welfare checks": good joke. There's a middle-class American couple that recently made the People magazine cover again for having their 19th child. I think if lazy, unemployed mothers were trying to leech the welfare system by having 20+ children we'd have heard by now.

I don't know much about welfare. I always thought that it pretty much evens out depending on how many children you have. You have more children, but you end up having to pay for more of them. Unless you're buying them dollar meals every day and clothing them with rags, I don't really know if it's possible to truly take advantage of this.

Being unemployed and uninsured, the government would subsidize your health insurance based on your income. That way when you get sick, with some dangerous disease and couldn't pay off the bill for it, the rest of us who are employed and have health isnurance aren't left paying for you through increased premiums and what not.

...You're complaining because you think the slight or raise of taxes is going to ruin your 'already' set life. Find that hard to believe considering you don't a job, but I'll humor you. If what you say is true, you now have health insurance. Crying about it now is just dumb, all you can do is clap your hands together and pray to the god that you probably don't believe in that obama doesn't get reelected and the can this entire policy all together with the new elected president.

Suck it up princess.

...You're complaining because you think the slight or raise of taxes is going to ruin your 'already' set life. Find that hard to believe considering you don't a job, but I'll humor you. If what you say is true, you now have health insurance. Crying about it now is just dumb, all you can do is clap your hands together and pray to the god that you probably don't believe in that obama doesn't get reelected and the can this entire policy all together with the new elected president.

Suck it up princess.

That's not the point though. I HAVE to get this new care and PAY for this shit that I don't need. If I don't get it, I end up having to pay some sort of fee. 5 extra cents for every dollar I spend wouldn't really piss me off that much, and I'd eventually adjust to it. It wouldn't change my way of life, since I can still do what I do every day.

It's not just the tax. This isn't FREE health care they're giving out. You still have to pay for it, but it's cheaper and you're REQUIRED to have it. I'm under my parent's plan because I'm still under 26, but according to what's said on earlier pages I still have to pay for it in some way, I'll dig that up later.

Aside from that, it means that when I turn 26, I'll have to pay for crap that I wouldn't pay for otherwise. I don't personally care if I have health insurance, and I certainly wouldn't pay for it out of my own pocket.

Technically speaking, he or she has to get a job eventually. I lived a pretty good life too, until college. Because up til near the end of High School, my parents paid for everything. However, driving to college requires gas, which requires money. I did wanted to live the life of a child, but truth be told, we all have to go out there and do things by ourselves, or at least, that's what my mind said. I work near full-time on busy seasons, and am not proud of it. It takes away the majority of my life, and I also go to school full-time. Even though it seems like I post on SP a lot, I do have a pretty busy social-life. But back on track/topic, unless her parents has enough money to fund her til 5x or so, she will probably have to get a job. Most people with a Bachelor's Degree makes anywhere from 40k-50k a year on average, and that's technically not even Middle Class.

Technically speaking, he or she has to get a job eventually. I lived a pretty good life too, until college. Because up til near the end of High School, my parents paid for everything. However, driving to college requires gas, which requires money. I did wanted to live the life of a child, but truth be told, we all have to go out there and do things by ourselves, or at least, that's what my mind said. I work near full-time on busy seasons, and am not proud of it. It takes away the majority of my life, and I also go to school full-time. Even though it seems like I post on SP a lot, I do have a pretty busy social-life. But back on track/topic, unless her parents has enough money to fund her til 5x or so, she will probably have to get a job. Most people with a Bachelor's Degree makes anywhere from 40k-50k a year on average, and that's technically not even Middle Class.

D'ohoho, I don't think you realize how kind my parents are. That mixed with the fact that there's only a 15 year age gap between me and them, so it's not like they're entering retirement any time soon. What if they do get into retirement? Well, luckily for me, my grandmother owns this house and it's mine if she passes. My grandmother lives the same life I live, pretty much, only she worked in some way for it. She sits back all day watching her soap operas and browsing her forums while raking in money from her kids who live here (they split the bills to pay for them, it ends up being cheaper than renting an apartment yourself, so it's a win/win situation). On top of that, she rents out parking spaces in the back yard, since we're not using those. She also rents out spare rooms in the house, because it's too big for out family. In other words, I'd be taking her place sooner or later.

I assure you, I'm not trying to gloat, just explaining my situation.

I'm glad you'd wish another person to die solely because you care more about your money than his life.

People die every day. It's a fact of life. I can't be bothered to care about every living person that may die at any given second. Do I wish them to die? No. But their death does not affect me as an individual. *shrug*

One last comment: A LOT of argument has gone on regarding "lazy unemployed people taking advantage of government welfare checks." Here's all I have to say to that:

Proof? I've heard this contention for years now and have never seen one statistic or figure showing the number of people who truly fall into this category.

I have first hand familiarity with them, having been involved in disabled services and having lived in government housing during childhood. We had more than one neighborhood babysitter who sat at home because she was "too fat too work" or w/e, got paid to not work and then took in money on the side doing things under the table like child-care for half the neighborhood, laundry services and so forth.

I've had the specific conversation before that, being deaf, a friend could make more money staying at home than dealing with a job, and know of other friends who broke up friendships and relationships for being on opposite sides of that divide - In both the deaf and blind communities there's a nasty polarization over those who want to be an accepted part of the work force and those who want to be "taken care of" and both groups feel the other undermines them.

I can assure you they do exist, and you won't find mamy statistics on them for the simple fact them being provable disqualifies them - Their livelihood really is dependent on not being public. Doesn't make them any less a needless leech. Also doesn't mean I condone cutting such services because someone's going to abuse them. Abuse is human nature, and should be dealt with or prevented where possible but not at the expense of those who really need it.

The Department of Human Services has an entire division for hunting them down - You can see http://dhs.dc.gov/dhs/cwp/view.asp?a=3&Q...7C30980%7C there's a wellfare fraud board http://www.ucowf.org/ and this lovely article tries to explain why it's hard to tell http://www.corporatenarc.com/WelfareFraudStatistics.php

Wow. You guys would sure hate New Zealand. Welfare recently paid for an unemployed gang member to fence his pool and put new tires on his car.

To all of you supporting this socialist agenda, I have but one question. You claim that we all have a right to health-care, where does the Constitution(not the Declaration of Independence) say that everyone is entitled to a private industries good?

Just because we are guaranteed the "right to life" does not mean that we "need" health-care. Health-care is a scare resource and is only available to those who can pay. If you can not pay for a service, you don't get it, correct? If you want a couch, but you can't afford it, do you buy it? Now, since you can't afford the couch, do you then go to your neighbor and beg them for money to pay for it? The same applies to health-care, just because you claim you want it, does not mean that all of the country needs to pay for your economic incapability. You people seriously need to open your eyes and read some literary works that clearly explain why government intervention in any industry leads to complete failure. See the auto companies, the government stepped in to bail them out, are they better off? Not in the least bit, they just were forced to fire multiple employees.

To the retard from Israel, just because you have socialized health-care over in that hellhole, does not mean that it is necessary everywhere. Sure it is nice to have health-care, but do you really deserve something you can not afford? Seriously now, it only promotes laziness and economic failure.

Also, Eos, since you enjoy quoting pieces of great legislature, see Article I Section 7 of the Constitution, it clearly explains why this bill is unconstitutional.

Khoi, if a state sues the government they have no real power. The state legislature is not affected by this bill as the party, the citizens of the United States are. The only way to fight the bill is to assassinate: Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Biden, and Waxman. Or simply talk to your legislator like you should have months ago and voice your distaste.

Why does this community have to be so full of liberals that are closed minded? Oh wait, that is the only kind of liberal.

/*removed*/

Does raised taxes even effect you directly? 'Cause everything you buy, you get money from your parents so theyre the ones dealing with the taxes. Not sure why you're so against this because like you said, it has no effect on you.

Does raised taxes even effect you directly? 'Cause everything you buy, you get money from your parents so theyre the ones dealing with the taxes. Not sure why you're so against this because like you said, it has no effect on you.

I'm not talking about taxes being a big problem with me...
I still have to pay for health care I don't feel I need. I'm under a plan until I'm 26, but now I'm forced to pay for a plan I don't want. My parents already pay for my living, I'll probably have to pitch in with my own allowance to pay for this shit. The health care isn't free, it's just cheaper.

Congrats.

[color="#000080"]

To all of you supporting this socialist agenda, I have but one question. You claim that we all have a right to health-care, where does the Constitution(not the Declaration of Independence) say that everyone is entitled to a private industries good?

Healthcare shouldn't be a private industry from scratch. It's in the Human Rights Declaration. Everyone must have health attention. Thus health is public. Where on earth does it say that healthcare should be in private hands? [/color]

You claim that we all have a right to health-care, where does the Constitution(not the Declaration of Independence) say that everyone is entitled to a private industries good?

"Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Just because we are guaranteed the "right to life" does not mean that we "need" health-care.

Last I looked "Quality of Life" was part of Life. Health care isn't a luxury. It's a basic human right because it's as necessary to long term survival as food and shelter.

Health-care is a scare resource and is only available to those who can pay. If you can not pay for a service, you don't get it, correct? If you want a couch, but you can't afford it, do you buy it? Now, since you can't afford the couch, do you then go to your neighbor and beg them for money to pay for it?

You want a house but you can't afford it, do you live on the street? No, you get a loan. And you repay that loan over time. Same concept as insurance except we're all paying into the same giant loan and all taking out as needed. If you never need it, good for you. It was still there in case you did. That's why it's called insurance.

Also, Eos, since you enjoy quoting pieces of great legislature, see Article I Section 7 of the Constitution, it clearly explains why this bill is unconstitutional.

You seem to be unclear on the concept of unconstitutional. What you've pointed to is an explanation of the process - There is no criteria in there for assessing the constitutionality of a bill and no criteria by which a bill could be declared unconstitutional, simply a process that is followed or not to determine if the bill shall become Law or not.

Why does this community have to be so full of liberals that are closed minded? Oh wait, that is the only kind of liberal.

Interesting that the people saying to give it a chance and fix it as needed are the one's close minded while the one's shouting that it's aberration and should never have happened and should be immediately undone with zero discussion regarding it ever being acceptable are somehow the epitome of open minded.