Elemental Weapons Bonuses Return

i haven't noticed any nerfs for Battle Mages.
unless theres something wrong with the staves themselves, BaMs are ok

The burden of proof is on you because you are asserting that JMS intended elestaves only for A/M's.

No, the burden of proof is on you because all factual evidence indicates this as a basic fact and you are the one positing a theory that deviates from this fact with no substantiating claims. I already pointed out the years of separation and different development teams involved. For your theory to hold water you would have to prove that there was both a connection between the teams and a grand design they both shared years in advance.

Your claim regarding bishops is also ludicrous, they would've had to changed core functionality of how the entire equipment system works to make wands/staves that a specific subset of wand/stave wielders couldn't use, so they added penalties as well as bonuses to ensure that the right people used the right weapon. They could've completely left off the entire eleDefault concept if they wanted the weapons to be generally available to all wand/stave users and only augment specific people, but they wanted to restrict who would use and benefit from them without having to recode the entire equipment system so they added a penalty, since the penalty could easily reuse the same logic that the bonus itself used.

Also get your facts straight, you brought this subject up:

I'm pretty sure that elestaves being fast was not intended only for AM's since like you said, most of their skills are unaffected by the weapon speed. So why have a fast staff for classes that don't take advantage of it. If this was really intended only for AM's, Nexon would have created a restriction for BaM's from using it.

In reply to an assertion by Chilly, not me.
I only replied because your answer was drivel requiring exteme supposition of foreknowledge and/or prescience.
Your insistence that new classes were inevitable and therefore were already accounted for is also absurd given that many games have never expanded by adding new classes and at the time these were created there was no implication that Maple would be. Without having direct knowledge that new classes would exist and what form those would take there was no way four years ago that JMS could've prepared these weapons for every possible future scenario.

Your entire stance is coming down to stamping your feet screaming NO NO NO ME ME ME with no supporting evidence and no credible statements.

If they truly intended it ONLY for A/M's, at least JMS would have prevented Bishops from wielding them. The penalties mind you were due to the very nature and description of the staves.

The burden of proof is on you because you are asserting that JMS intended elestaves only for A/M's.

At the time of their release in JMS, elemental weapons were only intended for archmages which was why they included a -25% reduction for holy as well as the opposing elements.

Evans/battle mages were not implemented yet and they were created due to the superiority bishops
held over archmages.

Now that everything has been changed with big bang, there really isn't a need for the -25% reduction rate except for preventing possible inflation for archmages who wish to purchase the weapons.

No, the burden of proof is on you because all factual evidence indicates this as a basic fact and you are the one positing a theory that deviates from this fact with no substantiating claims. I already pointed out the years of separation and different development teams involved. For your theory to hold water you would have to prove that there was both a connection between the teams and a grand design they both shared years in advance.

Your claim regarding bishops is also ludicrous, they would've had to changed core functionality of how the entire equipment system works to make wands/staves that a specific subset of wand/stave wielders couldn't use, so they added penalties as well as bonuses to ensure that the right people used the right weapon. They could've completely left off the entire eleDefault concept if they wanted the weapons to be generally available to all wand/stave users and only augment specific people, but they wanted to restrict who would use and benefit from them without having to recode the entire equipment system so they added a penalty, since the penalty could easily reuse the same logic that the bonus itself used.

Also get your facts straight, you brought this subject up:


In reply to an assertion by Chilly, not me.
I only replied because your answer was drivel requiring exteme supposition of foreknowledge and/or prescience.
Your insistence that new classes were inevitable and therefore were already accounted for is also absurd given that many games have never expanded by adding new classes and at the time these were created there was no implication that Maple would be. Without having direct knowledge that new classes would exist and what form those would take there was no way four years ago that JMS could've prepared these weapons for every possible future scenario.

Your entire stance is coming down to stamping your feet screaming NO NO NO ME ME ME with no supporting evidence and no credible statements.

You continue to insist that I said there was a connection between JMS and KMS teams. I have never said this, instead I likened it to inventions/creations. I am not making a claim that they intended it for BaM's. I am claiming that we can never know the true intentions of elestave creators unless you can read their mind. Sure they were intended for A/M's, but A/M's ONLY? That is what I am getting at. You are supporting Chilly in his assertion that Elestaves were intended solely for A/M's. Any smart creator(JMS-Elestaves) of ANYTHING will open up the possibilities for their creation to either be built upon by another creator(KMS-BaM). If a new elemental mage class was created the elestaves would be intended now for that new elemental class.

On the other hand, you are the one insisting that A/M's were the only classes intended for elestaves for all of maple eternity. You don't know whether or not the creators were aware that there might even be a .0000001% possibility of a new elemental mage class that might have use of the elestave, and in the case that there were a new elemental class the creators would gladly say the elestave also includes them in intended group of classes. The burden is clearly on you to prove something you can't prove.

Regarding your bishop rebuttle, restricting a certain class from using a subset of stave would be similar to restrictions they put on numerous items in the game. Male/female, fame equips, class, level, stats. Unless you are a GMS coder level coder, I don't think any of us can say anything about how difficult/easy it would be to restrict a Bishops from wielding a sub-set of staves. And I am beginning to seriously think you think you are a mind-reader now. How can you say you know what they wanted or didn't want. That info is in their brains for them to keep unless they explicitly make a public statement about period. It could go either way, your theory or what I said about how the natural description of the item gives a penalty to bishops.

I don't even know why you inserted that last line lol. I'm in no way heated up about this. I sincerely enjoy talking about maple I hope you feel the same way cuz I feel like saying 'y u so med tho'.

Any smart creator(JMS-Elestaves) of ANYTHING will open up the possibilities for their creation to either be built upon by another creator(KMS-BaM). If a new elemental mage class was created the elestaves would be intended now for that new elemental class.

You do understand this is Nexon you're talking about? The company that couldn't predict the interaction between Vicious Hammers and Horntail Pendants or between White Scrolls and slot recovery scrolls? Your theory is flawed. Occams razor. Which is more likely, them doing it based on the way the world worked at the they did it, or them building something they expected to handle all future changes known and unknown? Yeah. Considering new content isn't even added taking into account existing content it's absolute bull to state that old content was even remotely possibly potentially added in with forethought to future content.

Regarding your bishop rebuttle, restricting a certain class from using a subset of stave would be similar to restrictions they put on numerous items in the game. Male/female, fame equips, class, level, stats. Unless you are a GMS coder level coder, I don't think any of us can say anything about how difficult/easy it would be to restrict a Bishops from wielding a sub-set of staves.

"Unless you are a GMS coder level coder," Dear light if they're your baseline for comparison I'm a coding God. All the restrictions you've mentioned are based on discrete values in the game. There is only one discrete value for class type, therefore they didn't have the ability to make subclass specific equipment because there is nothing to compare the values to. It's an entire added layer of complexity to the way their system works and would have potentially made them incompatible with other MS versions. They took the "easy" route, it doesn't take a psychic to understand or determine that, it takes someone who's accustomed to watching the antics of lazy and/or externally hampered programmers trying to add improvisions to vendor code.

This conversation has exceeded my absurdity tolerance. You may believe what you want, anyone with half a brain can see the obvious here.

You do understand this is Nexon you're talking about? The company that couldn't predict the interaction between Vicious Hammers and Horntail Pendants or between White Scrolls and slot recovery scrolls? Your theory is flawed. Occams razor. Which is more likely, them doing it based on the way the world worked at the they did it, or them building something they expected to handle all future changes known and unknown? Yeah. Considering new content isn't even added taking into account existing content it's absolute bull to state that old content was even remotely possibly potentially added in with forethought to future content.



"Unless you are a GMS coder level coder," Dear light if they're your baseline for comparison I'm a coding God. All the restrictions you've mentioned are based on discrete values in the game. There is only one discrete value for class type, therefore they didn't have the ability to make subclass specific equipment because there is nothing to compare the values to. It's an entire added layer of complexity to the way their system works and would have potentially made them incompatible with other MS versions. They took the "easy" route, it doesn't take a psychic to understand or determine that, it takes someone who's accustomed to watching the antics of lazy and/or externally hampered programmers trying to add improvisions to vendor code.

This conversation has exceeded my absurdity tolerance. You may believe what you want, anyone with half a brain can see the obvious here.

You are simply limiting their intent to the present moment they created the elestaves. Why can't the creators of elestaves think 'oh Elestaves are now also intended for BaM's' when BaM's came out? (sure it may not seem intended for BaM's, but don't say it like its fact. You can't be infallibly sure of this unless you are in their head or a mind reader). An inventor is not required to say everything his/her invention is intended for the moment they create it. Sure there are present needs and intended purposes, but it can be built upon and the intent could change and be broadened. Just be open minded lol.

Calm down yo, there's no reason to get so worked up even if I am in your perspective absurd, as you could easily also be to me. I did learn a few things from our conversation so I appreciate it. And I'm glad that we can both agree that Nexon is incompetent.

Yeah we can't read the programmers' minds because there's not much there to read. But here's the fact: If it weren't for AMs, BaMs wouldn't have their precious E-staves. Far as I'm concerned, BaMs are not entitled to these weapons (same with Evans). But hey, Nexon allows you BaMs to use them because of their obviously lazy programming as Eos said. Consider yourself lucky.

Regarding your bishop rebuttle, restricting a certain class from using a subset of stave would be similar to restrictions they put on numerous items in the game. Male/female, fame equips, class, level, stats. Unless you are a GMS coder level coder, I don't think any of us can say anything about how difficult/easy it would be to restrict a Bishops from wielding a sub-set of staves. And I am beginning to seriously think you think you are a mind-reader now. How can you say you know what they wanted or didn't want. That info is in their brains for them to keep unless they explicitly make a public statement about period. It could go either way, your theory or what I said about how the natural description of the item gives a penalty to bishops.

Male/female = Coded into the itemID
Fame Equips = Coded into the item data
Class = coded as a bit-based byte based upon major job description (Beginner, Warrior, Mage, Bowman, Thief, Pirate)
Level = Coded into the item data
Stats = Coded into the item data

The way in which they implemented these staves is the easiest method of doing it that would cause the least amount of havoc on the game code. I have seen the unpacked assembly code. I know how the internal engine works.

- Changing the meaning of info/job would require that they update more than 8000 items to add in 16 items to fix one formula.
- Elemental weapons were introduced in early 2008. By this time the Pirate class had already been introduced into KMS for which these wands were initially created. Cygnus Knights were created not much later. Yeah. They knew.

On the other hand, you are the one insisting that A/M's were the only classes intended for elestaves for all of maple eternity. You don't know whether or not the creators were aware that there might even be a .0000001% possibility of a new elemental mage class that might have use of the elestave, and in the case that there were a new elemental class the creators would gladly say the elestave also includes them in intended group of classes. The burden is clearly on you to prove something you can't prove.

Which implies a logical fallacy. Argument from Ignorance is not an argument. I can raise the burden of proof so astronomically high that no one would be able to satisfy them. Even the court definition for a felony conviction - "Beyond a reasonable doubt" - falls completely short of your 0.000001% possibility. Who could possibly be that correct?

I could just as well say that how can you know that we can't know? Are you reading my mind? How do you know I'm not a mindreader? How can you know that we can't know that there was a .000001% possibility of the class? Why are you denying my knowledge over theirs? And why should I believe you? Why are you on this site anyway? Do you really trust my extractions? How can you know my extractions are reliable or unreliable? How can you know anything with absolute certainty? You can't.

Sounds like you really need to learn about basic argumentation and philosophical arguments. Your argument is absurd.

new post.

Has it yet been proven whether they correctly work?

After rereading your post I just had to repost lol.

Which implies a logical fallacy. Argument from Ignorance is not an argument. I can raise the burden of proof so astronomically high that no one would be able to satisfy them. Even the court definition for a felony conviction - "Beyond a reasonable doubt" - falls completely short of your 0.000001% possibility. Who could possibly be that correct?

So who decides how much evidence is enough to prove an assertion? Don't come and tell me elestaves were only meant for A/M's for the rest of maple eternity. The existence of an item is different from discussing the intent of an item. The existence of an item can be proven, its just there (unless you want to get into metaphysics). Same goes for data extractions, if I wanted to I could extract the data for myself and check if you're lying about your extractions or not. Just show me where the creators of Elestaves said they meant the elestaves for only A/M's for the rest of maple eternity lol.

The .0000001% possibility was not referring to being right/wrong. It was referring to whether or not the creator of the elestaves thought future classes may come out in the future that may have use of Elestaves which is pretty much more than .0000001%. What kind of creator would be that close minded.

I could just as well say that how can you know that we can't know? Are you reading my mind? How do you know I'm not a mindreader? How can you know that we can't know that there was a .000001% possibility of the class? Why are you denying my knowledge over theirs? And why should I believe you? Why are you on this site anyway? Do you really trust my extractions? How can you know my extractions are reliable or unreliable? How can you know anything with absolute certainty? You can't.

By all means say you know and that you are a mind reader if you are. I'm not gonna deny you that, but definitely call you insane.

Sounds like you really need to learn about basic argumentation and philosophical arguments. Your argument is absurd.

Oh trust me, the reason why I'm able to argue about this to this extent is because I'm a philosophy major. If you really knew what philosophical arguments were you wouldn't be saying my argument is absurd. Ever heard of metaphysics?

My point is simply that BaM's/Evans should not be flamed for using Elestaves. I mean seriously, we all family yo. xD

By no means am I trying to start a flame war or a discussion about who deserves what.

I am simply calling for the clarity of the discussion of elestaff 'bonuses' and the word 'bonus'. A distinction must be made between the 'bonuses' of the elemental and the weapon speed. Weapon Speed is not a bonus but a natural attribute of the weapon. If an A/M chooses to use normal attack, it will swing at a fast pace just like a Battle Mage would. The Battle Mage is not getting a special kind of 'bonus' if you will. The Battle Mage's skills simply utilizes the speed better. The fast speed obviously affects DPM just like it would for any other class, even as minimal as the DPM boost would be. The elemental bonus on the other hand is an actual percentage bonus for a certain elemental type.

The thing is, elemental staff 5-8 are lvl163 staves, so you cant compare this with other fast weapon classes, since lvl127 weapons are the highest for non-mage classes, also other mages don't benefit from weapon speed. lvl163 weapon give much higher matt, so for non-BaM classes, they get EITHER high weapon speed OR high m.att. if BaM benefit BOTH fast speed and highest matt (the two most important things that function in BaM dpm) , then it is unbalanced or unfair to most other people. That's what they are talking about. And don't need to criticize the word "bonus", as long as you know what it means here.

The thing is, elemental staff 5-8 are lvl163 staves, so you cant compare this with other fast weapon classes, since lvl127 weapons are the highest for non-mage classes, also other mages don't benefit from weapon speed. lvl163 weapon give much higher matt, so for non-BaM classes, they get EITHER high weapon speed OR high m.att. if BaM benefit BOTH fast speed and highest matt (the two most important things that function in BaM dpm) , then it is unbalanced or unfair to most other people. That's what they are talking about. And don't need to criticize the word "bonus", as long as you know what it means here.

BaMs aren't the only mage class that benefit from weapon speed though...

BaMs aren't the whole mage class that benefit from weapon speed though...

One 3rd Job FP skill does not an argument make. :f6:

One 3rd Job FP skill does not an argument make. :f6:

It does when the skill has practical uses outside of 3rd job.

Yeah we can't read the programmers' minds because there's not much there to read. But here's the fact: If it weren't for AMs, BaMs wouldn't have their precious E-staves. Far as I'm concerned, BaMs are not entitled to these weapons (same with Evans). But hey, Nexon allows you BaMs to use them because of their obviously lazy programming as Eos said. Consider yourself lucky.

I shall forever rue the day that Evans were created and the price of f/p ewand/staves went up in price.

It does when the skill has practical uses outside of 3rd job.

Explosion has uses outside of 3rd job?

*gets out notepad*

I use Explosion when Meteor's not on cooldown for its huge range but during training I'll always prefer Teleporting or using Big Bang. Besides, Explosion is only half weapon-speed based because of the small delay before the attack actually executes. The actual spell delay is unaffected by weapon speed. I'll push away any further claims that Nexon actually assigned mage weapon speeds an attack speed value based on Explosion with loud laughter.

Explosion has uses outside of 3rd job?

*gets out notepad*

I use Explosion

Take notes.

Take notes.

Not during training. Or bossing. My primary use of Explosion is to clear mobs of trash like Jr. Pepes when I'm walking out of El Nath.

v so can Big Bang.

Well, Explosion is great at bearwolves because it's range can hit 2 platforms at once (plus they are fire-weak xD). Other than that, I see no real use for explosion in 4th job.