Death to the Bishops

Yes, I'm aware of that, thanks for remembering. I said on my first post in this thread that it's too soon to be going "omg the end of xxxx thing!" just from the patch notes. We don't know formulas, videos, new skills, and other details. Hell, with the new Teleport and some wicked Shining Ray twist we could be leveling as fast as a melee job, who knows.

I was only replying to how Bishops can't rely on being support-only with the current system, since that would just not be balanced; it'd be just as unbalanced as how it is now for us in GMS, spamming Genesis and leveling 2 times faster than every other job. Only backwards.

I agree with this. Gospel, you never know...with the new teleport and boosted attacks, bishops could be leveling fast. Only thing is however, no one has posted a video of them training in KMST yet....

They'd have to be attackers in this case more than being supporters.

They'd have to be attackers in this case more than being supporters.

Why can't they just be equal attackers and equal supporters? 50/50, you know?

In most games I've played, the supporting class is what had the easier leveling curve than the attackers. Why? Because all they're meant to do is support, they deserve faster leveling because their characters aren't worth anything more. Think about it, would you want a priest attacking in your party rather than spam heal and save you MANY pot runs/mesos spent on pot runs an hour for mediocre 50/50 damage? HELL NO! You want the priest to be giving your exp a buff along with easier training, you are the alpha males in boss runs(sorry if you find some sexist offense to this.). YOU are the ones that get to have the fun of being the attacker, and now you want to level faster and screw over the supporting class's exp too?

Half of exp to level is something I didn't know, that's a much better feature and it might make maple so much more enjoyable. But that doesn't mean priests are going to level any faster compared to attackers.

If someone really wants to insist that priests should pull their weight and start trying to kill mobs faster, I'd love to see this game being played without a single bishop to heal, exp buff, bless, ressurect, door you to bosses, and basically make your enjoyment of this game far more leisurely.

I would agree that bishops aren't getting enough EXP for supporting, partying should be about mutual gain, how is it mutual gain if the attacker is reaping all the benefits for the team work put into both characters?

Also, quest exp has not changed, so doing quests early-game might actually give some amazing exp.

pineapple YEAH BITCHES.

I've always discussed MMO questing with my hardcore WoW friends, and I'm always shocked at the difference between games. In WoW, people actually DO interesting quests in order to gain good experience and items. MapleStory is renowned, as you're all aware, for horribly boring, repetitive quests that yield crappy EXP and even crappier items (in most cases).

Hearing that quests might actually be the way to TRAIN from time to time is SO great to hear as a Quest King. When I started playing this game I treated it like any other RPG, telling myself that "100% completion or bust" was the only path to follow. I essentially "grew up" on quests, and didn't mind leveling ridiculously slowly while doing them so long as I could hear a cool story and have some kind of variety in what I was doing in-game. I think a game that places a much greater emphasis on questing, while still maintaining a strong mob grinding element, is fantastic. I look forward to seeing how this all pans out.

While I hate the hell out of bishops, and I hate their bandwagoned status. I feel truely sorry for their genesis nerf. I like CL and it's going to be much more useful at Chief Oblivion guardians since they're weak to lightning, and my blizzard is only at level 1, I don't care if it gets a 30 second cooldown lol.

It's just sad to see how many people only want genesis to be removed for their biased reasons. If you are going to hate on leech, please don't lecture other players on how they should play the game. This game supposedly was supposed to be ''YOUR STORY'' not ''THE STORY OF YOU HATING THE WAY OTHER PEOPLE PLAY THEIR STORY''. If people want to leech, why is it another persons buisiness? There are plenty of other things that ruin the economy yet I see less BAW about that. Now that they screwed up the party EXP formula because you guys just aren't happy with the leech protection. priests might actually be leveling signifigantly slower...decreasing the number of available priests for boss runs. Although this is more of a long term deal.

Of course they might also become stronger, in which case my pity for their genesis is null and void. But seriously people? The people who complain about leech sound more biased than the people who actually do leech. I really hope my class isn't pounded to dirt because of other peoples desire to ruin leech. as if it's any of their buisiness.

*claps*

"Let's hoist threads like these and all other leech flame wars to a balloon and sail 'er to kingdom come with all this here hot air."

They'd have to be attackers in this case more than being supporters.

Uh...no?

While all RPGs are different, there are definitely plenty that can acheive a balance between attacking and supporting. I won't go into it, but the first example that comes to my mind is Fire Emblem, specifically Sacred Stones for GBA. All I'll say is Bishops in that game do 2x damage on undead with Holy, and can wield staves (aka they can heal and do other cool magic trix). Needless to say, I adore Bishops on my squad, especially when at undead maps. Big damij, both close and long-ranged, plus helping others = hella sweet. But in Fire Emblem they're not bandwagoned. I'd much rather take a variety of different classes along than all Bishops.

Damn....in retrospect FE does have a really good balance system...too bad MS will never be turn-based lulz.

While all RPGs are different, there are definitely plenty that can acheive a balance between attacking and supporting. I won't go into it, but the first example that comes to my mind is Fire Emblem, specifically Sacred Stones for GBA. All I'll say is Bishops in that game do 2x damage on undead with Holy, and can wield staves (aka they can heal and do other cool magic trix). Needless to say, I adore Bishops on my squad, especially when at undead maps. Big damij, both close and long-ranged, plus helping others = hella sweet. But in Fire Emblem they're not bandwagoned. I'd much rather take a variety of different classes along than all Bishops.

Damn....in retrospect FE does have a really good balance system...too bad MS will never be turn-based lulz.

Hahaha! Nexon (esp America) doesn't have a tenth of the brains of the creators of Fire Emblem.

Anyways on the note of FE, Bishops may be extremely strong against undead, but they're balanced because they have have lower speed caps than other classes, heavy weapons, which also hinders their attack speed, as well as low hp/def.

As for getting crappy exp while partying, I dont see why Nexon can't just make a skill that gives cleric class x% more exp while partying with other classes. This wouldn't affect exp for other classes, but I think itd make partying more viable for clerics/priests/bishops.

Hearing that quests might actually be the way to TRAIN from time to time is SO great to hear as a Quest King. When I started playing this game I treated it like any other RPG, telling myself that "100% completion or bust" was the only path to follow. I essentially "grew up" on quests, and didn't mind leveling ridiculously slowly while doing them so long as I could hear a cool story and have some kind of variety in what I was doing in-game. I think a game that places a much greater emphasis on questing, while still maintaining a strong mob grinding element, is fantastic. I look forward to seeing how this all pans out.

Yeah, I support this idea, but I think as it stands in those servers right now, questing it TOO good. As in, to the point where following a quest chain exclusively gets you levels to the point you out-level the very quest chain you are working on. That is simply poor design. With the mobs modified as they are, I have hopes that the quests will not all be isolated in 1-40 with a few nice ones around 7X as it stands now, and instead be well spread out and give exp enough to level at a respectable rate (even if it doesn't beat grinding).

However, as a fellow quest king (thread needs a revival, yet I see no way of equalizing it now), I'm afraid that they'll just wipe the quest results cleanas they recreate each of the very same quests there already were.


On the topic of Bishops, there's obviously going to be a large amount of protests for those accustomed to the system as it stands now; but I think if they give new playstyles a shot, it may not be so bad. I believe that leeching was an unintended result of the way 4th jobs were designed, but to not deal with it until now where it is engrained into the system and leave the player base with the genuine belief that it was intended was a bit harsh. If they were to do anything, they should have done it right away. At this point, they're only going to loose players with the adjustment.

I'm ok with the adjustment, but I don't think people should be "in your face, got what you deserved" on the subject. HP washing is the same sort of thing. It wasn't intended with the original design, but it was the result engrained into today's gameplay. Heck, SE says it does something completely different from what it actuall does, so who knows even there. Just be careful when those of you shoving this in the faces of Bishops have the same sort of adjustment made on that.

On the topic about quests, I do believe quests will be much more spread now through the game, instead of having most of them be level 1-60.

For example, Magatia is a 70+ area, so that's "high" level quests right there, I'd really love to be level 100 and still have a ton of level 100+ quests to do. Heck, we should have 4th job quests, the only quests we got then are skill quests and Temple of Time. Other than that, grindfest.

I'm really excited to see Bishop's new playstyle. Going around teleporting a lot more, using mana reflection, angel ray and maybe shining ray, and bahamut all the time... but I wonder if that would be enough to even rival the weakest melee job leveling speed. Of course since they're just testing grounds, there are a lot of things they might still change, I don't think this is gonna be the only patch with skill balances.

[color="#000080"] I wonder if people realize they should start training Archmages and Bishops like this:

[video=youtube;sXmBHP9exJI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXmBHP9exJI[/video] [/color]

You can't train a bishop like that...

L>Dark/holy demon on bishop Then it may be possible, more like a f/p with their demon+paralyze though.

Yup, can't train a Bishop like that, specially when mobs will have a LOT more HP.

Sometimes, just for fun, or when someone is about to level and equip his INT equips, I kill Skelegons slower by using Heal/Shining Ray/Bahamut + the casual Angel Ray to finish off a stray Skele. Of course I can kill that way, but that's still like half the killing speed of any other job, and that's at undeads.

I doubt the new hax Teleport and buffed Bahamut and other buffed crap will make up for that, even with 40% crit. Specially if you ever think of going outside the Skele minidungeon. I think a melee 3rd jobber would kill faster than a Bishop at non-undeads, which is just sad, and supporting is not an option with a 80:20 leech ratio. So lolbishops. Give us new fun skills . Has anyone seen if Shining Ray has a new animation? I always hated how it looks.

That video was awesome though, makes me wanna play an I/L. :O

[color="#000080"] I wonder if people realize they should start training Archmages and Bishops like this:

[video=youtube;sXmBHP9exJI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXmBHP9exJI[/video] [/color]

Or you can play as a nightlord and be invited to boss runs with killing speed that's decent.
Or you can play as Aran and just...well we all know.
Or you can play as a hero and spam 73k hitting brandish at TOT.
Or you can play as, blah blah blah.

THE REASON WHY ICE DEMON SUCKS:
Ice demon was a cool idea, it helps make monsters NEUTRAL to your elements and makes ifrits damage greater. But I believe we'll be training at Chief Oblivion guardians now that they're weak to lightning, ice demon would screw this over. Negating it's use as a mage, seriously, also when you're THAT powerful, it's a waste of a skill. In the time that girl casted ice demon, it could have been used towards another chain lightning, wasting 30 SP just to make it stronger with ifrit just isn't worth it. Ice demon is only helpful on neutral mobs, and mobs that are resistant to your element, but why would you train there? Bosses are not affected by ice demon(as they shouldn't be) so there really seems to be little use for it.

I just don't see myself spamming ice demon like that, the only reason I got it to level 5 was for ifrit. If mages started training like an average dpser it would just ruin their advantage. Sure they would be a bit better at mobs, but having a BIT higher leveling speed and forcing yourself not to spam ultimates, compared to simply picking a better class and having the benefit of actually being IMPORTANT just doesn't cut it. This is not taking their recent buffs into account, the new system is something that sounds really interesting to mages, I wish my thunder spear would hit 5 times and have 80% damage, that would have been so AWESOME.

The only reason I myself will be getting CL above blizzard is because i want to be an lolAM that trains in TOT for easy pieces. That's about all I'll ever be able to do as a mage, since I highly doubt I'll EVER be invited to...hell I doubt I'd even make it to a Zakum run, and even if I did I would be so unimportant I'd get nothing out of it. What does a mage seriously have to offer(currently) besides spamming ultimates? I know ya'all hate the way mages train but...really... I was gonna say a lot more things but I forgot what they were while I was typing this...

EDIT: I remember. That video is a video of a level 143 I/L training at cornerians, there seems to be something wrong with that. Why would a overleveled I/L mage be training there? The only benefit was the terrain, which made it easier for her to kill things stylishly for the viewers aesthetic pleasure, ice demon DID come in slight handy in this video, but when it goes into actual practice at a higher leveled area(Chief obvlivions for example) it doesn't fare so well.

[color="#000080"] I wonder if people realize they should start training Archmages and Bishops like this:

[video=youtube;sXmBHP9exJI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXmBHP9exJI[/video] [/color]

they still wont be able to damage bosses efficiently. Nexon seriously needs to get feedbacks from mages themselves and not others who are jealous of their training speed.

Putting big bang to good use :

[video=youtube;Somb8H0ss00]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Somb8H0ss00[/video]

I suspect that type of training the f/p was doing with BB will be very similar
to the way a bishop trains post changes. Mabye sub demon with SR and
throw in a genesis every 30 seconds.

Haha @ above Big Bang video. Before I was strong enough to Fire Demon + ohko with Meteor Shower, I would 2hko Oblivion 5 with Big Bang. It's quite fun (and fast).

While I was going to say "but this thread isn't about AMs, but Bishops," Bishops, remember that you actually DO have Big Bang, and could viably train like the LOLFP above. I'm still in support of vast changes to the class in order to either make them more viable party options, or better solo trainers.

Oh, and lol @ above comment of "excited to see Bishops training with Mana Reflection." You don't train with Mana Reflection. The skill is part of the trifecta of crap that no one bothers to max till the end-game levels, and even then it barely deals enough damage. Even when reflecting 100% damage, it only works at a 60% success rate, and, ultimately, is not something people would invest in as a training skill.

Big Bang's a good skill. Two things wrong with it:

- Ultimates are better
- The range is glitched in GMS

Bishops need Angel Ray to do what Fire Arrow does. Otherwise, there's no way you can pull an interesting playstyle out of what Bishops have to work with at the moment.

The other video that person made with the F/P balance patch changes was really amazing too. Reminded me of jumpcasting explosion at gigantic vikings off ledges when misting there, that was really fun. The new explosion speed letting you hit multiple lanes at time temple is amazing. Really made me want to play my old F/P AM again.

Here's the direct link to it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arjUBfmk_IA

It'd be cool if angel ray worked like fire arrow and shining ray had a larger range and could be casted while jumping.

Big bang is cool and all, but then that would make bishop the superior class as they have big bang and the benefits of being a bishop. Although fire demon looked massively powerful in that video, I'm not really knowlegeable of F/P. But having to rely on big bang seems to completely kill any uniqueness in the mages. Why be I/L? You'll be using big bang. Why be F/P? You can mist for a few levels before but in the end you'll be using big bang. Why be bishop? You get all the buffs, perks, importance, boss runs, massive exp boost, and big bang. The way some mages train scare me, I knew F/P didn't have nearly as much mobbing capability as an I/L but that video truely scares me.

EDIT: Watched Cyanes vid, that looks TONS more ideal, that I can live with. Now if only they could do it at Chiefs.

It'd be cool if angel ray worked like fire arrow and shining ray had a larger range and could be casted while jumping.

I'd be pretty happy with that.

Heck, all mages should be able to use magic while jumping. I can use support magic while jumping (heal, dispel), why not attack magic? >:O

The other video that person made with the F/P balance patch changes was really amazing too. Reminded me of jumpcasting explosion at gigantic vikings off ledges when misting there, that was really fun. The new explosion speed letting you hit multiple lanes at time temple is amazing. Really made me want to play my old F/P AM again.

Here's the direct link to it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arjUBfmk_IA

It'd be cool if angel ray worked like fire arrow and shining ray had a larger range and could be casted while jumping.

Dang, that person has some sick control.