How thorns (dual blader) works

HEROES NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL BE STRONGER THAN NLS IN 95% OF SINGLE-TARGET SITUATIONS.

Really, you're missing the point here. You should be far more focused on how absurdly strong Dual Bladers are in their own right than how strong other classes are when they have two different buffs from two different classes. Even before Dual Bladers existed, Aran + SE + Crit Ring are already stronger than everyone. By a lot. And Dual Bladers beat even Aran by a lot more. Balance has long since put a gun to its lips.

HEROES NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL BE STRONGER THAN NLS IN 95% OF SINGLE-TARGET SITUATIONS.

Really, you're missing the point here. You should be far more focused on how absurdly strong Dual Bladers are in their own right than how strong other classes are when they have two different buffs from two different classes. Even before Dual Bladers existed, Aran + SE + Crit Ring are already stronger than everyone. By a lot. And Dual Bladers beat even Aran by a lot more. Balance has long since put a gun to its lips.

Oh well its k.

I still want to find out about stacking stuff.

Heroes are actually pretty weak, before and after all these changes. The only way to match will be going 2h and given si, but even that's still not enough since classes benefit from si too. They'll be the weakest warrior job pretty soon, bye bye heroes of time. Don't get me wrong, I still love mine, but everyone has overrated heroes to the max, myself inclusively.

It looks like thorns and se work pretty much the same for arans. 100% for 145% damage if you use the 5/20 ring for thorns and 95% for 150% if you use 10/10 ring for se, so effectively 145% and 142.5% more damage.

Oops, arans don't get adv rings right? Only remembered after I posted, so I guess thorns will be better by a bit.

And I don't think dual bladers are that strong - no fake, no stance, low hp will hinder their bossing performance by a bit. Not sure about invincibility frames.

Heroes are actually pretty weak, before and after all these changes. The only way to match will be going 2h and given si, but even that's still not enough since classes benefit from si too. They'll be the weakest warrior job pretty soon, bye bye heroes of time. Don't get me wrong, I still love mine, but everyone has overrated heroes to the max, myself inclusively.

It looks like thorns and se work pretty much the same for arans. 100% for 145% damage if you use the 5/20 ring for thorns and 95% for 150% if you use 10/10 ring for se, so effectively 145% and 142.5% more damage.

Oops, arans don't get adv rings right? Only remembered after I posted, so I guess thorns will be better by a bit.

And I don't think dual bladers are that strong - no fake, no stance, low hp will hinder their bossing performance by a bit. Not sure about invincibility frames.

Heros are very good when fighting 1 boss. However, when it comes to 2-3 bosses they are just far stronger than the top DPS classes 1v1 like Corsairs, NLs, BM, etc etc. Training up a hero is too easy lol. They can train fast and with some hp washing they can go any boss pretty much except gb. I say this class is too powerful. With thorns and ring, they are just #1. #1 means not first place DPS, but 1st place in overall performance in bossing and training.

Dual Bladers are strong, but like jelly mentioned stance, fake, low hp, kinda makes a little weaker. They might still be #1 though but im not sure...too new of a class to determine that right now.

Arans are very strong, but they aren't really that much better than hero in overall average DPS. It's only when combos are high. Also arans have low hp too.

I really want to know about rings stacking with thorns and if se and thorns stack. Those are important things to know if you want to really judge the top DPS classes.

Does this mean that an aran with SE and thorns has:

70 + 35 + 15 = 120% rate :3 (100% rate maybe?)

and +475% damage?

Something tells me Thorns only works for Aran when Combo is under 100.

Heros are very good when fighting 1 boss. However, when it comes to 2-3 bosses they are just far stronger than the top DPS classes 1v1 like Corsairs, NLs, BM, etc etc. Training up a hero is too easy lol. They can train fast and with some hp washing they can go any boss pretty much except gb. I say this class is too powerful. With thorns and ring, they are just #1. #1 means not first place DPS, but 1st place in overall performance in bossing and training.

Dual Bladers are strong, but like jelly mentioned stance, fake, low hp, kinda makes a little weaker. They might still be #1 though but im not sure...too new of a class to determine that right now.

Arans are very strong, but they aren't really that much better than hero in overall average DPS. It's only when combos are high. Also arans have low hp too.

I really want to know about rings stacking with thorns and if se and thorns stack. Those are important things to know if you want to really judge the top DPS classes.

I wish you'd stop talking about DPS as though you know anything about it. Based on your comments on Aran and Heroes thus far, you just have misinformed and bad speculations.

Oops, arans don't get adv rings right? Only remembered after I posted, so I guess thorns will be better by a bit.

And I don't think dual bladers are that strong - no fake, no stance, low hp will hinder their bossing performance by a bit. Not sure about invincibility frames.

Eh? I thought they were able to get the rings the same way any adventurer can. We'll see, I guess.

And Dual Bladers *are* that strong. Even if Thorns and SE don't stack, their potential DPS is *much* higher than Aran and Corsairs, and even moreso if SE and Thorns do stack. It's due to a lot of reasons, but I think Final Cut (doubles their damage 60% of the time) is one of the biggest. Also, behold invincibility frames. And I think we still don't know what Stack Effect does. I heard someone say it was "like puppet," but I don't know how that deduction was made. It could still be their defensive skill.

Something tells me Thorns only works for Aran when Combo is under 100.

I honestly think the thing for Aran and Buccs is just a typo and they meant to say it only works with a low combo and on unstunned monsters, respectively. It seems odd that Thorns would only work exactly when you'd expect it not to on those two classes compared to every other class.

The chinese translation for stack effect is as follows:

"Creates a seal/barrier that can prevent monster's magic attack."
Level 30: MP consumption 250, durability/resistance 15500 (most likely hp), lasts for 90 seconds. (This is the old data, but I don't think it was revised anyway)
If it works the same way puppet does, then this is way better than puppet since it's like 2.5x the HP plus it only absorbs magic attacks wth. AND IT LASTS LONGER.

Final cut is just like a mini snipe, since it has a cooldown too. It's great for dealing damage to mobs but single target, you probably can't even do 200k with it. Just curious if the inflicted damage bonus works on bosses or not, if it does, then yea it is hella broken.

Dual blader pretty much becomes the new self-sufficient night lord. They already jacked the most definitive skills that make archers unique.

http://mxd.youwo.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boa...n=0&Star=1

I wish you'd stop talking about DPS as though you know anything about it. Based on your comments on Aran and Heroes thus far, you just have misinformed and bad speculations.


Eh? I thought they were able to get the rings the same way any adventurer can. We'll see, I guess.

And Dual Bladers *are* that strong. Even if Thorns and SE don't stack, their potential DPS is *much* higher than Aran and Corsairs, and even moreso if SE and Thorns do stack. It's due to a lot of reasons, but I think Final Cut (doubles their damage 60% of the time) is one of the biggest. Also, behold invincibility frames. And I think we still don't know what Stack Effect does. I heard someone say it was "like puppet," but I don't know how that deduction was made. It could still be their defensive skill.


I honestly think the thing for Aran and Buccs is just a typo and they meant to say it only works with a low combo and on unstunned monsters, respectively. It seems odd that Thorns would only work exactly when you'd expect it not to on those two classes compared to every other class.

Cough Cough. I think I know a lot better than you about DPS. Dual bladers i dont know much about b/c its a new class and im too lazy to find and calculate the DPS. Aran looks too complicated to find an accurate average DPS. Any other class I know pretty much everything there is. Maybe not so much about the classes in the bottom of the high DPS list. When it comes to star classes like NL, Corsair, BM, Hero, I know very well detailed pros and cons about it.

I think your the one who doesn't know much about this so yeah....

Im sure you know a lot about corsairs b/c you are one and you also made a spreedsheet about it. However, NLs, BMs, Heros, meh i don't think you know much about it.

On paper heros dmg isn't that high compared to NL, but when it comes to the actual fight experience, hero is right below NL around the same as a BM simply b/c of its massive mobbing skills. They have awesome mob control at major bosses and are perfect rushers. I am NL....and I know through experience it is an awesome class that does massive dmg, but not really well in others things like training.... Heros can boss and train easy. Not only that, but now days GMS has many bosses that are not only 1v1 and involve multiple bosses at once like cwkpq, scar/targa (though it can be found seperate), zakum arms, and I think thats all. Of course BigFoot, heros are #1 there. No NL can kill as fast as that. Hp wash a hero to max hp, it can go any boss. NL is ranged and it can fight from far and avoid high dmges, but if some noob rusher comes in and rushes anego or Bf at you, then you are dead.

Corsair I don't have to say anything about it to you b/c you probably know everything about it.

About the combo 1.9 x multiplier, it is true that it is multiplied before se/thorns effect. So that part is true. However heros are an awesome class just like NLs, and it shouldn't be underestimated.

I think I know a lot better than you about DPS.

haha oh wow

My calculator is over a year old and has its share of formula mistakes. KaidaTan is the expert on DPS here.

I know this thread is getting derailed but, your aspect of dps is different than the rest of us. Ours is based on 100% efficiency, you based on 'real' experience which I agree will make heroes have a upperhand. Of course at mobbing, heroes/dks win hands down and KaidaTan and I just really go horntail and not zakum or cwkpq nor even scar/targa so that potential in the classes are non-valuable for us. It's like saying bishops have the best dps at skeles, well duh. I have a hero, dark knight, bowmaster, bishop myself and I've played a night lord, paladin before so I know a bit from experience too. Aran can kill bigfoot in 2 min with se, same level paladin kills in 3.5-4min (both have perfect gear and level 200). Overall, hero is #1 well rounded, but if we're talking about straight dps no interruption and external factors, KaidaTan is right and it's easy to compare experience too.

haha oh wow

My calculator is over a year old and has its share of formula mistakes. KaidaTan is the expert on DPS here.

Nah, the formulas you have a right, except there are few that I noticed are wrong right now, but most of the parts are right. I know which ones and I based my theory on my own calculations, so dw.

KaidaTan knows a lot about Corsairs, but the other classes, I don't really think so. KaidaTan has the perfect paper calculations, but experience wise, I think I know much more....
After all I have a NL myself and I've bossed to know the pros and cons and which class really stands out when it comes to bossing.

I know this thread is getting derailed but, your aspect of dps is different than the rest of us. Ours is based on 100% efficiency, you based on 'real' experience which I agree will make heroes have a upperhand. Of course at mobbing, heroes/dks win hands down and KaidaTan and I just really go horntail and not zakum or cwkpq nor even scar/targa so that potential in the classes are non-valuable for us. It's like saying bishops have the best dps at skeles, well duh. I have a hero, dark knight, bowmaster, bishop myself and I've played a night lord, paladin before so I know a bit from experience too. Aran can kill bigfoot in 2 min with se, same level paladin kills in 3.5-4min (both have perfect gear and level 200). Overall, hero is #1 well rounded, but if we're talking about straight dps no interruption and external factors, KaidaTan is right and it's easy to compare experience too.

Actually you are right about that. I agree with that. =)

Well all i wanted to say was about my experience in Scania with my NL and some other top bossing classes experience. Of course I calculated the paper work DPS too, but I just mix both to base my idea on DPS. Anyways I just wanted to let people know that not only paper work counts, but also experience. Its cool =).

KaidaTan knows a lot about Corsairs, but the other classes, I don't really think so. KaidaTan has the perfect paper calculations, but experience wise, I think I know much more....
After all I have a NL myself and I've bossed to know the pros and cons and which class really stands out when it comes to bossing.

I'm well aware of "real experience" and I know whom it affects and how much. However, I don't feel that it can be fairly measured when it can differ so vastly from boss to boss. I think it's better to have an absolute standard rather than a variable standard. It's impractical and I don't want to have to make DPS sheets for every boss. And even then, player skill would make such a huge difference even between players of a single class (Aran and Corsairs are prime examples of where skill and decision-making can directly translate to a significant increase or decrease in DPS in a situation such as HT) that it wouldn't be a very accurate sheet to begin with.

People tend to assume that I think the numbers I come up with for my DPS stuff is written in stone and absolutely 100% true all of the time, considering how often I talk about DPS. But even I know when to take my own numbers with a grain of salt, especially in extreme circumstances (Soloing Zak, BG A, and so on). However, at a normal boss such as HT, the difference in efficiency (how close they can get to their maximum potential) between classes is almost never big enough to make a class that was doing excellent on paper suddenly do worse than the next few classes.

So, in short, I do realize that some classes are better at staying close to their maximum potential than others, however I don't think that there's such a large difference between them in *most* bossing situations for it to be considered for cross-class calculation. And even if it were, it's nigh incalculable anyway.

Final cut is just like a mini snipe, since it has a cooldown too. It's great for dealing damage to mobs but single target, you probably can't even do 200k with it. Just curious if the inflicted damage bonus works on bosses or not, if it does, then yea it is hella broken.

From between what I've gathered from videos, the skill description, and what Takebacker has told me, Final Cut seems to be an attack like any other with a 100 second cooldown and a Pierce-esque charge time. However, after using it, you get a buff (signified by the glowing owl eyes over your head) that doubles your damage for 60 seconds. I can't tell by the numbers (because I couldn't see them), but in that Pianus video I've linked a few times, it probably works on bosses. I don't see why it wouldn't, honestly.

Looks like the damage boost on final cut differs for each skill. So there needs to be experiments done. And the skill kills you if you're not careful when you charge and activate, 65% of max hp ouch.

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=...6no%3D7849

Here's another uber damage with final cut, Aran or Dual blader? =/
And it looks like sharp eyes and thorns don't stack, in fact, they replace each others' buff so looks like DB won't be liking archers.

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=...no%3D15130

[video=youtube;xuNlf3TnIAs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuNlf3TnIAs&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Yes, after further consideration of the video evidence that I had previously posted, I have come to the same conclusion that SE and Thorns do not stack, though they did not appear to cancel each other in the buff list either in KMST.
The video in question is prior to the update where Fatal Blow does 180% damage per hit, and only does 125%. Observed in the video are extremely high, near 30k Fatal Blows (though I did not witness any 30k+ hits) on Dagger hits (low end was high 10ks), and 6~10kish Blade Hits (wasn't really paying attention to Blade hits); however, the highest damage hit noted was a 56715 done by a Flying Assaulter Critical. 56175 @ 650% (400% + 250%) gives an 8642 Base damage. This does work out to 30k+ Criticals on Fatal Blow if reached, but this was never observed. What was observed, however, was a ~11471 non-Upper Stab, non-Critical Fatal Blow hit, thus filling in the possible range to hit so high on a Flying Assaulter without the assist of a secondary Critical. So unless Final Cut does had significantly different multipliers to each skill, the same ratio should be applied to each observed hit to calculate the base range possibilities for this.

The chinese translation for stack effect is as follows:

"Creates a seal/barrier that can prevent monster's magic attack."
Level 30: MP consumption 250, durability/resistance 15500 (most likely hp), lasts for 90 seconds. (This is the old data, but I don't think it was revised anyway)
If it works the same way puppet does, then this is way better than puppet since it's like 2.5x the HP plus it only absorbs magic attacks wth. AND IT LASTS LONGER.

Final cut is just like a mini snipe, since it has a cooldown too. It's great for dealing damage to mobs but single target, you probably can't even do 200k with it. Just curious if the inflicted damage bonus works on bosses or not, if it does, then yea it is hella broken.

Dual blader pretty much becomes the new self-sufficient night lord. They already jacked the most definitive skills that make archers unique.

http://mxd.youwo.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boa...n=0&Star=1

Stack Effect leaves a "dummy" of you somewhere. This "dummy" is your mirror image, so by using stack effect you are giving up your attacking bonus you get from mirror imaging. This is according to Spadow.
http://spadow.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/g...llo-march/

Dummy Effect. You can summon a dummy of yourself only when you have Mirror Imaging on.
Your alternate self will separate and be a dummy.
Monsters will attack the summoned dummy, but your dummy has a certain value of stamina. Once that value has been reached, your dummy will disappear.

This skill works like the Puppet skill of a Ranger.

Also, Arans can get critical rings. The critical ring is able to be traded once through your own account. All you got to do is make an adventurer and get it to level 50 and transfer the ring over to your Aran.

I'm well aware of "real experience" and I know whom it affects and how much. However, I don't feel that it can be fairly measured when it can differ so vastly from boss to boss. I think it's better to have an absolute standard rather than a variable standard. It's impractical and I don't want to have to make DPS sheets for every boss. And even then, player skill would make such a huge difference even between players of a single class (Aran and Corsairs are prime examples of where skill and decision-making can directly translate to a significant increase or decrease in DPS in a situation such as HT) that it wouldn't be a very accurate sheet to begin with.

People tend to assume that I think the numbers I come up with for my DPS stuff is written in stone and absolutely 100% true all of the time, considering how often I talk about DPS. But even I know when to take my own numbers with a grain of salt, especially in extreme circumstances (Soloing Zak, BG A, and so on). However, at a normal boss such as HT, the difference in efficiency (how close they can get to their maximum potential) between classes is almost never big enough to make a class that was doing excellent on paper suddenly do worse than the next few classes.

So, in short, I do realize that some classes are better at staying close to their maximum potential than others, however I don't think that there's such a large difference between them in *most* bossing situations for it to be considered for cross-class calculation. And even if it were, it's nigh incalculable anyway.


From between what I've gathered from videos, the skill description, and what Takebacker has told me, Final Cut seems to be an attack like any other with a 100 second cooldown and a Pierce-esque charge time. However, after using it, you get a buff (signified by the glowing owl eyes over your head) that doubles your damage for 60 seconds. I can't tell by the numbers (because I couldn't see them), but in that Pianus video I've linked a few times, it probably works on bosses. I don't see why it wouldn't, honestly.

I see.

Also something I would like to say to everyone is even with thorns and ring assuming thorns doesn't stack with se, it is not so bad actually. I think the classes that are top right now will stil remain top probably with dual bladers in the list too.

Lol, if a dual blader gives thorns to another dual blader, the effect is halved like melee classes. This is one messed up skill.

http://www.insoya.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=...f&no=14825

Lol, if a dual blader gives thorns to another dual blader, the effect is halved like melee classes. This is one messed up skill.

http://www.insoya.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=...f&no=14825

I can has good coding?

That is confusing o.O

Hmmm maybe that can restrict people from putting more than 1 dual blader per party. If this class is mad strong, then people just put 30 dual bladers and go bossing like zak lol. So this is good news.