2008-10-17, 01:46 AM (This post was last modified: 2008-10-18, 04:22 AM by KaidaTan.)
I just did some math with that, actually. Turns out that that extra 10k damage per second (yeah it's that huge) balances BMs and MMs quite a bit. I'll post more details in a spoiler at the bottom of this post. I'm pretty sure this also puts MMs above Heroes. Rejoice, it's quite an upgrade.
Shaddap Wrote:Wow, you're so full of crap. lmao I solo Anego all the time with just strafe and sniping alone, every hit is a knockback.
Good Job doing over 1k damage all the time. You must be proud.
Shaddap Wrote:And only a noob would think that pinning is the only method to kill Anego alone. Keeping her on the left side is essentially the same damn thing and easier in my opinion, just hit her once, plant puppet, and hit nonstop.
While I don't disagree that it's easier, it's certainly not faster. You're wasting all that time planting puppets. You have to run away if you want to cast anything other than Booster. You have to deal with that stupid 100 attack limit, and also I'm sure it's unsafe to be within Freezer's range there. Bowmasters have none of these problems.
Opeth Wrote:So, keeping Anego pinned at all doesn't count?
I can keep Anego pinned to the rightmost wall with my regular, unboosted attack. Who cares?
My Maths
So I did that thing where I turn myself into an imaginary Marksman for the sake of comparison. This new snipe is surprisingly amazing. The fake monster I'm using has the same defense as Anego calculates at (2000). Yeah, I know it says 3000 in the data, but for some reason she acts like she has 2000. Note that both of these characters are level 166. Anyway, here's the stuff.
*Half of the time is Warrior Elixer and the other half of the time is Concentrate.
Now that I have the easy part out of the way, I should do some explaining. Human error favors Bowmasters because of Snipe. What are the chances that you're going to have just finished a Strafe exactly when Snipe ends, use that Snipe as soon as physically possible, and then resume Strafe without any mistakes in button-pressing timing that would result in .5 seconds of doing nothing? Low I'd presume. Normally I don't account for human error in calculations but this is a fairly large difference in DPS. Now, is it unreasonable to estimate that a person uses Snipe every 11 seconds? I don't think so. One second is a lot, to be sure, but it's fairly possible that that's around the time you'd spend finding out that Snipe is ready, getting ready to time it all properly, and waiting until after your current Strafe is over to actually doing it. I'd say that if you were really good at it, you'd average around 11 seconds per Snipe. So for the sake of comparisons and such, I'm going to list Snipe at 10 seconds, 10.5 seconds, 11 seconds, and 12 seconds (for the slow and stupid).
In this example both the BM and the MM were using a Warrior Elixer by default. Early in 4th job, the Bowmaster should beat the Marksman because the Marksman hasn't yet maxed Snipe and won't until around 140 at the earliest. At lower levels (I'd say around... 140~155), the Marksman should win outright. After that, the Bowmaster is (or should be) working on Concentrate. At that point the scales tip somewhat in favor of the Bowmaster, even more so if he uses Cider in between. Also, leveling favors the Bowmaster as well. While both characters damage range increases through their leveling, Snipe's constant damage does not. So as both characters level the Bowmaster will gain a lead on the Marksman. Gear is another thing of note though. In a matchup between a very badly geared Bowmaster and Marksman, the Marksman will have the upper hand. If both if their gear is excellent, the Bowmaster will have the advantage.
As far as group bossing goes though, this Snipe upgrade will make Marksmen pretty much exactly as desirable as a Bowmaster. Know that I hold no contempt for Marksmen and I'm incredibly happy this upgrade is going to happen. Now there just needs to be a boss that consists of 5 pieces lined in a row so Pierce will outdamage everything except maybe ultimates.
Keep in mind that Snipe --> Strafe macros have no real drawbacks to them. You can keep using that and it'll just tell you "The skill is not ready!" until the 10 seconds are up.
At least, I think... I'm not a marksman yet so I can't verify that
Chameleonic Wrote:If you like bossing(solo or party) Bowmaster is the way to go. A lv 150ish BM soloed Zak 90 minutes faster than a lv 164 MM...see thread on SW.
Shaddap Wrote:Wow, you're so full of crap. lmao I solo Anego all the time with just strafe and sniping alone, every hit is a knockback. And only a noob would think that pinning is the only method to kill Anego alone. Keeping her on the left side is essentially the same damn thing and easier in my opinion, just hit her once, plant puppet, and hit nonstop.
Also, just for the record, I've outks'ed bowmasters and night lords at Anego with the raised damage cap of sniping, which GMS will eventually get. Regardless of the speed hurricane has, at bosses, NOTHING a bowmaster has touches the sheer amount of damage a marksman can do in a minute's time.
rofl? when have i ever said that pinning is the only way to kill anego?lern2read before assuming crap. all i said was that you can't pin anego TO THE WALL with strafe, i never said u can't kill anego with strafe.. You're not the only one who solos anego all the time, in fact, the past few levels i've been leveling off anego. Yes, every hit is a knockback, but can you knock it back past the window? No, you can't. But hurricane can, which is what i was talking about in my post earlier.
I've also ksed some bowmasters and night lords at anego, but are they the same level as u or are their gears as good as yours? i don't think so..
RachelGreene Wrote:I've also ksed some bowmasters and night lords at anego, but are they the same level as u or are their gears as good as yours? i don't think so..
Actually, if you read the math in my last post, it's very possible that they had the same or better gear. And the NL would simply have no chance regardless of his gear if he didn't have SE.
Chameleonic Wrote:If you like bossing(solo or party) Bowmaster is the way to go. A lv 150ish BM soloed Zak 90 minutes faster than a lv 164 MM...see thread on SW.
i've always enjoyed playing my marksman. i seem to be the only one that still enjoys it around here.
i don't care that a bowmaster can do more damage than me. marksmen aren't exactly pushovers either. i love being able to freeze things, the mob attacks, etc. pretty much what roxas said:
Roxas Wrote:[SIZE="2"]This is just my opinion, having played both Bowmaster AND Marksmen;
I love Marksmen, I love freezing things, and the powerful mob attacks, everything about them. They are so much fun, this is what I would reccomend you.
Bowmasters, yeah.. Hurricane got boring after a while, but my Marksmen was always fun to play, it had a diversity of skills.
Furthermore, seeing as you're in Yellonde, a Marksmen would save more money than a Bowmaster would, since they Freeze.
Marksmen all the way![/SIZE]
that pretty much sums it up for me. i love my marksman.
2008-10-17, 09:04 PM (This post was last modified: 2008-10-17, 09:08 PM by Avery.)
I love marksman for being able to freeze, but lately i only train at ht, so i really sorta regret my class (i made a marksman so i could use hurricane, and use an xbow, since they're more attack then a bow)
Although i love the fact that your example is bm and mm sorta equal Kaida, i have to wonder, how much more dpm is a bm your level with an apple, compared to a mm with an apple, since all but one boss i do, apples are used.
Avery Wrote:I love marksman for being able to freeze, but lately i only train at ht, so i really sorta regret my class (i made a marksman so i could use hurricane, and use an xbow, since they're more attack then a bow)
Although i love the fact that your example is bm and mm sorta equal Kaida, i have to wonder, how much more dpm is a bm your level with an apple, compared to a mm with an apple, since all but one boss i do, apples are used.
Wut?
Well. most people that liked MM likes freezing things, and they are "fun".
I like bossing/solo'ing bosses, AND freeze.. so it's really hard to decide..
2008-10-17, 11:13 PM (This post was last modified: 2008-10-17, 11:36 PM by Technolink.)
psychopat Wrote:Keep in mind that Snipe --> Strafe macros have no real drawbacks to them. You can keep using that and it'll just tell you "The skill is not ready!" until the 10 seconds are up.
At least, I think... I'm not a marksman yet so I can't verify that
I can verify that. I suggested that to a guildy and he did a strafe-snipe-strafe macro which did snipe at max speed.
BUT, you must remember the actual shot.
Each strafe is .72 second, each snipe is .72 seconds with 10 second inbetween. This means that there won't be an even number of strafes to fit 10 seconds.
First the snipe would be fired, so as soon as strafe is eligible fire, you're in .72s into the 10s cooldown time (9.28s left)
13 strafes is the closest number of strafes possible to allow another snipe.
This puts the total time now at 9.36+.72 = 10.08 seconds.
So 1 snipe and 13 strafes cycle is 10.08 seconds at maximum fire rate (with a macro). You may want to reconsider that in your calcs (as it would be closer to 10 seconds).
EDIT: I'm still having trouble matching your base calcs, tell me what I'm doing wrong:
{ [ (4897+5999)/2 * (1+2.4*.55)*4 ] } / .72
60/(83+1/3) = .72 O_o
Can't figure it out, that should be strafe base DPS 4897~5999.
KaidaTan Wrote:Actually, if you read the math in my last post, it's very possible that they had the same or better gear. And the NL would simply have no chance regardless of his gear if he didn't have SE.
by ks i meant like getting majority in the same party so the nl had se, but yea she was lower lvl than me. =P
2008-10-18, 04:17 AM (This post was last modified: 2008-10-18, 04:23 AM by KaidaTan.)
Technolink Wrote:I can verify that. I suggested that to a guildy and he did a strafe-snipe-strafe macro which did snipe at max speed.
BUT, you must remember the actual shot.
Each strafe is .72 second, each snipe is .72 seconds with 10 second inbetween. This means that there won't be an even number of strafes to fit 10 seconds.
First the snipe would be fired, so as soon as strafe is eligible fire, you're in .72s into the 10s cooldown time (9.28s left)
13 strafes is the closest number of strafes possible to allow another snipe.
This puts the total time now at 9.36+.72 = 10.08 seconds.
So 1 snipe and 13 strafes cycle is 10.08 seconds at maximum fire rate (with a macro). You may want to reconsider that in your calcs (as it would be closer to 10 seconds).
EDIT: I'm still having trouble matching your base calcs, tell me what I'm doing wrong:
{ [ (4897+5999)/2 * (1+2.4*.55)*4 ] } / .72
60/(83+1/3) = .72 O_o
Can't figure it out, that should be strafe base DPS 4897~5999.
I did it with 2k defense remember? So... {[(4897+5999)/2]-(defense*.55)}*(2000/24)*2.32*4/60
But I do admit I made some mistakes. It turns out I haven't updated my xbow calculator in quite a while so the defense formula was still at the old .5 for all and the number of Strafes/minute was off a little bit. I'm gonna fix it in the math post. Oh, and btw, I have Snipe at 199999 damage in case you were wondering. Thanks for asking though; I was able to catch the mistakes I made.
The other thing is...if i choose MM, i might be able to pull off to be the #1 MM in Yellonde~ i don't train much either(And can FREEZE!). But, BM is...stronger at bosses(which is my #1 hobby)
Omg hard descision..gonna hit 30 like today so...what to CHOSE?!
The fair comparison is obviously snipe/strafe vs hurricane/concentrate.
So at that level, with the current cap MM are at 77% efficiency, while at the 200k cap MM are at 90% efficiency. Not bad, I think that brings the classes about equal. Hurricane is the better mobber 3 under, pierce over 3 (which I'm sure consists of more then 10% of a MM's training damage). Then BM stronger bird, MM freeze, etc etc etc.
With the 100k cap it isn't too bad, as long as mobs of 4+ appear a lot in training (which they don't)
@ TS: don't pick a character because you can be the number 1. Then its like you are playing a character you don't like just because of everyone else. Play a character for yourself, and yourself only. Then again, by the time you are 120 we may have the 200k limit (may come in pirate patch, who knows?) and then they'd be 10:9 at bosses.
How is your 200k Snipe DPS waaaay off of mine? How many seconds per Snipe did you use?
And Synergy, yeah choose what you like. You said yourself that you don't train much so that #1 position would be hard to hold. Just go Bowmaster so you can do what you like (bossing) whenever you want and not have to worry about rankings.
2008-10-18, 03:22 PM (This post was last modified: 2008-10-18, 03:26 PM by Technolink.)
I did 13 strafes and 1 snipe, then divded by 10.08 for the total time.
EDIT: WHOA, ment that top one to say strafe only. xD! (fixed)
Damage range adjusted:
3697~4999 avg: 4348
Strafe average per shot: 40349
snipe at 200k
40349*13+200000 = 724537/10.08 = 71878.67
You were probably calculating snipe wrong before. Were you taking the .72 seconds for the snipe arrow to actually fire into account, or just the 10 second cooldown. Snipe isn't 6 arrows per minute (.1 per second), its 5.597 per minute (~.09328 per second)
