Unwashed ranged classes are a waste of time?

At least there's some people here that see my point.

First of all, if you took my post as flaming, I'm truly sorry. I wasn't flaming you, nor did I have any intentions of it being seen as such. I'll counter the point you're trying to make more thoroughly and less "cruelly" then.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that we will, indeed, have 4800 HP at level 200 without any type of HP washing or blooding. Fair enough. Things you will not be able to do with this amount of HP (that we have in GMS):

- Pink Bean

Yes, that's it. If you're thinking HT is out of the question, you're wrong. You should never exclude HP equips. You can safely HT with 48xx HP. The only thing is you'll have to wear an HP equip or two until the Legs + Wings are dead. The rest you can survive with only HB.

You mentioned Pap bombs. It is true they do a lot of damage if they use their Att Up buff. However, it's not 5k. Assuming you're wearing pretty standard gear and a Zhelm, it's only going to be around 47xx-49xx damage, tops. Yeah, that's quite risky with only 4800 HP. If you're good at Pap, you will almost NEVER get hit by or even SEE a Pap bomb power up. I so rarely see them power up that I often forget they can. If you absolutely want to avoid such an accident, wear an HP equip or two. Not a big deal at all.

Bosses such as Anego, Bigfoot and Tengu are the same type of difficult for ANY ranged class that doesn't uber wash (8k+ base). Simply, we can't get hit. Haha. Washed or unwashed, killing these bosses is either through skill or with friends. Being unwashed doesn't matter at all for them, so you can't use them as a con for being unwashed. Uber washing merely makes them easier (allowing you to tank a hit).

Area bosses are all EASILY doable with 4800 HP, so not a problem.

Time Temple bosses are all doable with 4800 HP, as well. Dodo is pathetically easy. Lilynouch is very easy if you're good at using Puppet + watching for Damage Reflect. Lyka is safely doable as long as you're very careful + good with Puppet. Just don't get hit by him when he's powered up.

Did I miss anything?

For training, you may have to wait longer to go to certain places, but you can still go everywhere eventually. Washing just helps people stay at more comfortable HPs, use better pots (and/or sooner) and access more dangerous spots earlier. The only place that is really going to be hard to manage (until like 18x) is Chief Oblivion Guardians, which isn't a big deal.

So what am I missing? I honestly want to know what your side is. I think I countered everything reasonably. Closing point: Unwashed characters are NOT a waste of time. Not at all. In fact, they may even be more rewarding in the end because you'll get to know you didn't take the easy route. You stuck to your guns and played through the difficulty of lower HP. That's one way to see it.

it's OTHER people's Damage whore-ness that keeps us from doing that. Why take Mr. "too poor to wash" who wasted 50 AP in to HP when we have Jimmy Moneybags over here who washed his character 5 ways from Sunday and has 1000 HP more than the other guy without doing crappy damage.

Don't like this argument. You should never let other people keep you from doing things. So what if you can't join some elitist f'aggot HT or PB group because they want someone stronger? Screw them. I wouldn't WANT to be part of a group like that. It's stupid that the MS community contains a large number of such people, but that's what we have to deal with. Don't let them affect your enjoyment.

And again...50 points into HP is not going to make your damage crappy. Goodness people! You'll be weaker, yes, but your damage will still be great, as long as your equips aren't clean or just plain stupid and your skills are maxed. We don't all need to be BEAST. I think it's that horrible mindset that makes us think our "damage" is never good enough...or crappy...

Everyone wants everything so easy. You have to WORK for things. You don't have mesos to fund your NX? Level. Leveling nowadays is easy as hell. You DON'T need to survive HT at 14x. What would you do at HT at that level? Nothing at all. I used HP gears at 16x to survive... did I have less fun because I did that? No.

Seriously, everything can't be available to everyone. Why do you CARE if everyone else is a damage whore? That shouldn't affect you in the slightest. If you want to experience some part of the game that your character is clearly not ready for it, you have to sacrifice things; whether it is damage or mesos, you decide.

22 hp a level... I'm only 1000 hp short for HT. Should just go level up 45 times no problem right.

You should be aiming for at least 160(for no damage loss) anyways before horntailing. It's not what your country(run) can do for you, but what you can do for your country(run).

Also, @Felix. It's extremely selfish to not care about the standards of a group you may be wishing to run with. With bossing it may not always be the joyride for every regular runner that it is for some newcomer who's getting a taste of his first high. These people often spend 2-3 hours a night to uphold their bossing, and having somebody that's not going to make it any quicker just doesn't fit into the picture.

I never wore any int gear and never hp washed or put points into HP until level 155, when HT just came out. I washed 25 points and wore a tiny amount of hp gear until I leveled enough to have the HP for not needing special equips. I didn't do this because I was dying to go see the boss, I did it because I didn't want to be weak.

ya this kindasucks, when ToT came out i was liek lvl 165 ish and @ that point i had i think ~ 4500 hp with a MoN, i quickly realized that i needed to Wash to be able to PB at all, so i went on a spending spree, got a HT pendant, got a wack load of other int gear and did some washing, and i project i can pb safely by liek 182 and thats with only like 40-43 resets>.> now i know a corsair has more inate hp than NL's or BM's but thats only gonna be a few more resets, and i didnt even spend a large ammount on int gear, scrolled a wand myself for like 20M, scrolled a 10 int cape for like 15M, ht pendant with an egg @ the time cost me like 300M, int gloves cost me ~ 70M, earings were ~ 45M and i got a real cheap overall for ~ 50M in total i spent like 500M to get to like 70 int per level, now i had had my Zhelm and a Depstar/mon equipped since like lvl 50 so i had a few lvls of washing stored up but i calc'd out that 70 int a lvl would be more than enough to lemme pb in 18X, so that being said... i would easily assume any other ranged class that starts @ a non-stupidly high lvl would be able to spend like 1-200m on int gear and be able to store up 30-50 int a level which will allow em to reset a lot earlier, and if they store up the mp from lvling up and wait for another cheap ap reset event(it would most likely happen again before they hit PBing lvl anyways) and if they give the same deal then your only looking @ liek 60K nx to wash out to PB status.. everything just takes some time to do, stick with it... and if your like 19x and you dont have NX or anything... then i wanna know how the heck u made it that high in the first place without 2X lol

Also, @Felix. It's extremely selfish to not care about the standards of a group you may be wishing to run with. With bossing it may not always be the joyride for every regular runner that it is for some newcomer who's getting a taste of his first high. These people often spend 2-3 hours a night to uphold their bossing, and having somebody that's not going to make it any quicker just doesn't fit into the picture.

Not what I was saying. My point was the people in charge of the group are retarded if they refuse to take someone who isn't as strong as "Jimmy Moneybags," as Isaac put it. Obviously they're not going to, nor would I expect them to, take someone low-leveled or just plain weak (like so bloated with HP gear they can't even do half of their actual damage...). Your last sentence is exactly what I was talking about. Taking someone who has some points into HP IS going to make the run faster, even if it's less than Mr. Godly.

I was only countering what Isaac said in that way. I became part of a main HT group in my server and ran many times with them. I was able to survive, reliable and skilled enough to do what was expected of me. I certainly wasn't the most godly Bowman. They were a good, fair group and they let me HT with them because of reasons other than simple MAXIMUM damage. Just because I had points in HP didn't mean I was excluded or a mere "SE mule." That's the point I was trying to make.

HP washin' ~ controversial shizzle.

It's worth it. I did buy 20 resets when those packages were there. For some reason I was able to use them all. Never wore int equips*. I have now low MP at 10x. However, I'm enjoying my HP even more, like 3,2k with deputy star.

Why this early? I can Pianus and Pap without dying.
Yes, I need HB, still... I do not regret it.


* = I did have a zhelm from level 5x, underaverage int (14), so with Deputy star, which I obtained at lv80, still only 19 int.

So my point is: you don't need billions for int gear and not need to be rich irl or whatever to have 'more' fun in-game.

Everyone is arguing over something that is pretty pointless. ALL of your arguments are flawed. You are looking into this issue in a narrow fashion. Think outside the box.

This is a game design issue. Nothing more. Nexon needs to re-assess how damage is distributed to all classes. One damage-fits-all formula is obviously not working. People are spending too much time and money on an issue they shouldn't NEED to address to begin with.

STOP spending money on AP resets, STOP bossing, SEND tickets to Nexon until such a stink is raised they actually do something about it.

Sending them so much of your money on an issue they need to fix is simply telling them, "we are too stupid to ask that this issue be fixed and instead reward you for your sloppy programming, please take this incentive to do NOTHING".

You mentioned Pap bombs. It is true they do a lot of damage if they use their Att Up buff. However, it's not 5k. Assuming you're wearing pretty standard gear and a Zhelm, it's only going to be around 47xx-49xx damage, tops. Yeah, that's quite risky with only 4800 HP. If you're good at Pap, you will almost NEVER get hit by or even SEE a Pap bomb power up. I so rarely see them power up that I often forget they can. If you absolutely want to avoid such an accident, wear an HP equip or two. Not a big deal at all.

Pap's bombs, buffed, did 5018, 5025, and 4996 to me before. dam you single uncrit arrows + stun the next fraction of a second due to lag. I have 384 defense too, probably above and beyond what's "standard" for equips in terms of defense. like you said, damage stats aren't the only ones in the game.

btw, pap's buffed bombs is ONLY an issue to bowmasters. every other class is exempt from this (well... maybe not corsairs on bship cooldown). it's one of the few innate problems that come from hurricane, which as a marksman (chameleon) you would probably not know anything about. strafe and snipe will always kill bombs even before you are 4th job. the only thing that can get them to buff is attacks between 2k~5k... which the only 4th job classes capable of doing that are bowmasters with hurr and corsairs with rapid fire. every other class either has packaged hits OR enough survivability that it isn't an issue.

may i have your children Felix? you have the exact same thoughts on this as i do. to date i have around 600 pap kills, and the fact i've only seen three buffed bombs hit me speaks volumes about how big of an issue it really is.

This is a game design issue. Nothing more. Nexon needs to re-assess how damage is distributed to all classes. One damage-fits-all formula is obviously not working. People are spending too much time and money on an issue they shouldn't NEED to address to begin with.

A ranged defense set would be nice. You'd take lower damage, but that accommodates to your low HP, but that doesn't avoid the fact that you'd still need a little hp boost to survive(which means it's up to the archer to find a way to get around it, like HP gear.) Then again, there's a flaw here as HP washers wouldn't have any issues at all.

Here's the thing, mages have magic defense, which, obviously, makes them take lower damage from magic attacks. You see, mages get their own defense in some form/way. Basically, every class should have some way to reduce damage like that. Sure, magic defense is seemingly useless, but it gives an idea of what type of damage reduction can be created.

They may be ranged for a reason, but other than sniping, what if you end up taking a hit? You're pretty much dead. Sure, there's that extremely low chance of the hit missing, but, there will be times where it will be impossible to avoid.

That, and the archer skillbook seems a bit littered with seemingly useless skills. (Focus, for example.) An idea would be to include something similar to the brawler's skillset, where they get maxhp up.
Though an idea would be damage reduction formulas depending on classes...
IE, for thieves, their defense could be based on LUK/Avoidability, etc. Archers would be DEX/Accuracy, so on.

It could come in the form of a passive skill that you have to "earn"..No idea, really. (Instanced series set of quest dungeon/maps with nontradeable quest drops, make use of your ranged prowess and "earn" the skill!)

But, it could take Wizet/Nexon a forever to create a separate defense type of thing...
And, well, that means it just wouldn't happen. That, and they're probably enjoying the money they gain from the excessive HP washing.

Though these ideas are pretty much pointless...blah, whatever. I just wanted to get something out.

If you want to experience some part of the game that your character is clearly not ready for it, you have to sacrifice things; whether it is damage or mesos, you decide.

Having low hp doesn't necessarily mean your character isn't 'ready' for it. I mean, that's like pap's 2nd form, where not all warriors can hit the damned thing. That doesn't mean you're not ready for it, it just means you'll need some other way to get around the accuracy issue. (IE, switching to a maple weapon, using an amorian basket, etc)

(well... maybe not corsairs on bship cooldown)

Nope. I don't even use Rapid Fire.

If you want to talk about useless skills, take a look at the warrior skillsets...

endure, hp recovery, mp recovery, iron body, iron wall, shout, all 3 "crashes", shield mastery... those are the ones that come to mind.

If you want to talk about useless skills, take a look at the warrior skillsets...

endure, hp recovery, mp recovery, iron body, iron wall, shout, all 3 "crashes", shield mastery... those are the ones that come to mind.

most ranged players here would trade any skill you pick for hp increase in first job.

deal?

Heh yes, I know. I'd give up a bunch of my skills (including useful ones) for improving hp increase. Just saying, compared to other classes warriors have relatively few 'actual' skills.

Heh yes, I know. I'd give up a bunch of my skills (including useful ones) for improving hp increase. Just saying, compared to other classes warriors have relatively few 'actual' skills.

bless of the amazon, focus, final attack, arrow blow, inferno, blind, hamstring.

these are some useless archer skills, we all have crappy skills and what not its just the way the game is.

most ranged players here would trade any skill you pick for hp increase in first job.

deal?

Of course, but he didn't mention HP increase as one of the useless skills.

You can have my Shadower's Shield Mastery if you want more defense. : |

I think unwashed ranged classes arent a waste time , but they cant archieve things which people who wash can .

Isnt it a big DISADVANTAGE ? For some reasons, there are ppl who can stand it , but there is a large amount who cant stand it . Its not that they dont enjoy ms , they just want to enjoy a better ms life.

FelixTM is a very patient person who see MS in different angle . But Chameleonic does have a point for his whining though . Neither of you are false at all .

I think there are many high lvl ranged who have the same thought as Chameleonic's .

What will you feel when a HT/zak squad invites a bowman , who is lower lvl, less skilled, but he can does more dmg and has more HP , but not you ? Dont you feel the uselessness ? Being needed is also an enjoyment if you ask me .

I think unwashed ranged classes arent a waste time , but they cant archieve things which people who wash can .

Isnt it a big DISADVANTAGE ? For some reasons, there are ppl who can stand it , but there is a large amount who cant stand it . Its not that they dont enjoy ms , they just want to enjoy a better ms life.

FelixTM is a very patient person who see MS in different angle . But Chameleonic does have a point for his whining though . Neither of you are false at all .

I think there are many high lvl ranged who have the same thought as Chameleonic's .

What will you feel when a HT/zak squad invites a bowman , who is lower lvl, less skilled, but he can does more dmg and has more HP , but not you ? Dont you feel the uselessness ? Being needed is also an enjoyment if you ask me .

Achieve stuff that others can't? We are talking about one boss here, and heavy washing is not even remotely necessary to do your part at HT. Does anyone really feel being able to fight the legs along with warriors to be worth spending on? Oh yea Pink Bean? The amount of washing to tank it goes far beyond heavy, I'd even go as far as to say plain stupid. If it really is designed to require glitchabuse and moneyspending, they can just take it back to Nexon HQ and shove it, gently, up their own arses.

So in conclusion, washing is fun and a must to tackle bosses like HT early, but then again why is going to HT suffering from the level diffrence penalty such a dang blast anyway? Ranged lack the HP to do stuff early, melee often lacks the accuracy. I think its a fair deal as long as they don't going to make a habit of throwing fail-designed bosses à la Pink Bean in our faces.

Why does the washed bowman have more damage? I'd defintely take a higher level more skilled bowman over a lower levelled one that had more HP.

Why does the washed bowman have more damage? I'd defintely take a higher level more skilled bowman over a lower levelled one that had more HP.

I think he means if the higher lvl one blooded rather than washed, therefore is missing points in DEX. provided they have similarly scrolled gear, this could hold true...


BUT

I've never EVER seen a zak or HT group ask how strong a character is. They only look for 2 things: lvl, and enough HP to survive. If you're a 16x MM/BM that blooded, so you have enough HP to go, I really doubt anyone is going to question your abilities. Hell, you probably don't even have to tell them you blooded if you really think it's going to make them think less of you.