BattleshipCannon Vs Demolition

Recalcs:

Damage Range:
- Buccaneer (875str+110dex+125watt) => [(875 * 4.8 + 110) / 100] * 125) => 2835~5387 (avg 4111)
- Corsair (874dex+110str+125watt) => [(874 * 3.6 + 110) / 100] * 125) => 2261~4070 (avg 3165)

Damage Range after wdef penalty at Horntail (1760wdef):
- Buccaneer 4111 - 1760/2 = 3231
- Corsair 3165 - 1760/2 = 2285

ADPM (And including Advanced Homing for Corsairs)
- Buccaneer 106.620% DPM * 32.31 = 3.444.892 ADPM (Average Damage Per Minute)
- Corsair (138.180% DPM * 22.85) * 1.2 = 3.788.895 ADPM (Average Damage Per Minute)

Buccaneer damage is 91% of Corsair damage => Corsair wins in DPM

But still some things will remain:
- How long will Battleship last at bosses like Horntail / Zakum?
- Corsairs will need HB in a party > DkK will lower PartyDPM a lot
- Only Buccaneers have WindBooster
- Only Buccaneers have Countdown that allows 6x Revive or 6x Smokescreen per 20 minutes with only 1 Bishop or Shadower in their party...

Of course, while not super transformed, an infighter's lack of range will be a severe weakness. (see video)

That's why using Shockwave / Levethian / Energy Orb when you're not Super Transformed is a better choice at bosses.

I never liked Barrage anyway...

But still some things will remain:
- How long will Battleship last at bosses like Horntail / Zakum?

I agree here. The fact that Battleship won't last very long lowers a Corsair's damage by a lot. Considering that Horntail does about 8k damage, I'm going to assume that Battleship won't last longer than a minute, maybe two, unless the player is extremely skilled at demounting the ship.

- Corsairs will need HB in a party > DkK will lower PartyDPM a lot

Every party has a DrK in Horntail. They are staples in every high level boss, thus this isn't a con.

- Only Buccaneers have WindBooster

But how much will it actually help the party? It's been proven that NL's attacking speed doesn't exceed a certain level, same with Heroes and their Fast Lunchboxes. Bowmaster's Hurricane has a set speed regardless of booster. Thus, Wind Booster only helps boost a DrK, Shadower, Paladin, or Marksman's damage.

- Only Buccaneers have Countdown that allows 6x Revive or 6x Smokescreen per 20 minutes with only 1 Bishop or Shadower in their party...

Good luck to an all Buccaneer party at Horntail once they are all seduced.

That's why using Shockwave / Levethian / Energy Orb when you're not Super Transformed is a better choice at bosses.

I never liked Barrage anyway...

Thus, Buccanners don't really do much for a party in terms of DPS. They're good at Horntail for Countdown, but otherwise people are really overrating their bossing usefulness. Wind Booster doesn't affect the main attackers at Horntail (Bowmaster, Night Lord, and One-Handed Heroes). Barrage's range is too short to be of any use at Horntail and Leviathan is too slow to do give any decent damage output.

Please... no cross forum discussions, if you want to reply to a post, post your full reply and dont link to basil as a reply.

Anyway, I read your post on basil, and you're doing it wrong...
I was talking about that wdef has more penalty for Corsairs then Buccaneers because of the lower base attack between these two.
And besides that:
- (Advanced) homing doesn't work (anymore) on Bosses, Nexon nerfed it.
- Battleship will break in a short time when fighting to Zakum / Horntail, while Buccaneers have 16 out of every 20 minutes Super Transform in a Buccaneer party.

Btw, your DPM calcs are quite correct, but your base attack ranges (Using your info):
- Buccaneer (875str+110dex+125watt) => [(875 * 4.8 + 110) / 100] * 125) => 2835~5387 (avg 4111)
- Corsair (874dex+110str+125watt) => [(874 * 3.6 + 110) / 100] * 125) => 2261~4070 (avg 3165)

Range vs DPM Conversion (Using your info):
- Buccaneer 106.620% DPM * 41.11 = 4.383.148 ADPM (Average Damage Per Minute)
- Corsair 138.180% DPM * 31.65 = 4.373.397 ADPM (Average Damage Per Minute)

Conclusion: Both Buccaneer and Corsair do the same DPM on the Snail Boss (Corsair = 99.77% dmg of Buccaneer damage)

Then take in mind what I said about wdef penalty, and you'll see Buccaneers do more DPM at Zakum/Horntail/etc...

Although with advanced homing (it has to be recasted for each monster though, and this will slow down your training again...) Corsairs would do more damage on Skelegons and friends...

I wasn't replying to w.def taking more off for gunslingers, i was replying with that thread because of you saying cannon < demo.

1) That first factor i've never heard of from anyone, so you're going to need to back up some solid proof. Here's a good start.

2) That second factor you would have to be retarded to take into account. It's completely unpredictable, thus void. Besides, the gap is big enough where that won't be an issue as well as the fact that 90 second down time is not that long. It's a good thing to note, but i GUARANTEE the downtime will NOT fill the void of a few million damage point gap.


Lastly, you're not using my info for those calculations. The buccaneer in MY calculations has 105 att with no pot, 117 with a warrior elixir, and 125 att with energy charge. The captain has 125 att with no pot and 137 with a warrior elixir. They don't have the same attack base, and i suggest you change that in your calculations as well.

@ bribery: I think he's talking about leviathan in combination with the other skills, because that's what every single buccaneer does in normal form. O_o Though his saying shockwave is a good choice at bosses i completely disagree with. Good luck using shockwave in the AIR if you're fighting HTs heads (or any other part of his body that isn't on the ground) or at zakums arms for that matter.

Wind booster might break the speed cap. Remember daniels post saying he shot triple fire faster with it?

Also bribery, where exactly are we talking about fighting HT? His tail? There's always that rock that does 2k, unless you forgot that. :/

Every party has a DrK in Horntail. They are staples in every high level boss, thus this isn't a con.

1Bish + 5Bucs party's are very good possible at Horntail... No need for DkK's on those party's. Bucs and Bishops have enough stamina to survive without one.

But how much will it actually help the party? It's been proven that NL's attacking speed doesn't exceed a certain level, same with Heroes and their Fast Lunchboxes. Bowmaster's Hurricane has a set speed regardless of booster. Thus, Wind Booster only helps boost a DrK, Shadower, Paladin, or Marksman's damage.

I dunno... but sure it'll speed up buff casting and Heal/Dispell?

Good luck to an all Buccaneer party at Horntail once they are all seduced.

Seduce party's normally consist of other classes (1Bish/1DkK/4Shads). The Buc party wouldn't be seduced... If they would, they whole HTrun is failed...

Thus, Buccanners don't really do much for a party in terms of DPS. They're good at Horntail for Countdown, but otherwise people are really overrating their bossing usefulness. Wind Booster doesn't affect the main attackers at Horntail (Bowmaster, Night Lord, and One-Handed Heroes). Barrage's range is too short to be of any use at Horntail and Leviathan is too slow to do give any decent damage output.

1Bish/5Buc Party's outdamage the traditional 1Bish/1DkK/1SEmule/3NL party's...

Once 4th job Bucs become common in gMS Maple they will be replacing the some traditional party's at Zak/HT... I would say in about a year or so... It just depends how popular the class will become...

2) That second factor you would have to be retarded to take into account. It's completely unpredictable, thus void. Besides, the gap is big enough where that won't be an issue as well as the fact that 90 second down time is not that long. It's a good thing to note, but i GUARANTEE the downtime will NOT fill the void of a few million damage point gap.

Since you seem to know a lot more how long a Battleship lasts, can you please inform us how long it -ACTUALLY- will last?

Lastly, you're not using my info for those calculations. The buccaneer in MY calculations has 105 att with no pot, 117 with a warrior elixir, and 125 att with energy charge. The captain has 125 att with no pot and 137 with a warrior elixir. They don't have the same attack base, and i suggest you change that in your calculations as well.

Buccaneer watt:
• 91 atk King Cent (lvl 100 knuckle)
• 12 atk BWGs
• 2 atk/10 str PAC
• 12 att potion
• 20 att from Energy Charge

Total: 137

Corsair watt:
• 91 atk Concerto (lvl 100 gun)
• 12 atk BWGs
• 2 atk/10 dex PAC
• 20 att Eternal Bullets
• 12 att potion

Total: 137

Hmmm I forgot the attack potion (137-12=125)... re-recalcs below...

P.S. Energy Charge stacks with attack potions right? :o

Good luck using shockwave in the AIR if you're fighting HTs heads (or any other part of his body that isn't on the ground) or at zakums arms for that matter.

Why would using shockwave in the air be a problem? It has a large range... (330% I thought). I don't get your point?

------------------

Re-Recalcs:

Damage Range:
- Buccaneer (875str+110dex+137watt) => [(875 * 4.8 + 110) / 100] * 137) => 3257~5904 (avg 4580)
- Corsair (874dex+110str+137watt) => [(874 * 3.6 + 110) / 100] * 137) => 2478~4461 (avg 3469)

Damage Range after wdef penalty at Horntail (1760wdef):
- Buccaneer 4580 - 1760/2 = 3700
- Corsair 3469 - 1760/2 = 2589

ADPM (And including Advanced Homing for Corsairs)
- Buccaneer 106.620% DPM * 37.00 = 3.944.940 ADPM (Average Damage Per Minute)
- Corsair (138.180% DPM * 25.89) * 1.2 = 4.292.976 ADPM (Average Damage Per Minute)

Buccaneer damage is 92% of Corsair damage => Corsair wins in DPM

P.S. Energy Charge stacks with attack potions right? :o

Well, seeing as how no other skill stacks with attack potions, I don't think Energy Charge would be an exception...

Well, seeing as how no other skill stacks with attack potions, I don't think Energy Charge would be an exception...

If it doesn't that means the whole class 100% phails in gMS...

If you would use an onyx apple and hit a monster 20 times, bam Energy Charge Active!... There goes your +100 watt and it lowers to +20 watt...

Does anyone know this for sure? :o

If Horntail was ALL about the highest DPS,
We wouldn't have Mages, Paladins, Marksmen, and Shadowers coming along too.

Not to insult, but we all know what classes outshine the others.
So what if Cannon is stronger?
So what if Demolition is stronger?

I really doubt bringing either class will be detrimental OR greatly advantageous to any boss run.


Also Devil, Energy Charge doesn't stack with attack pots, it will just override a lesser attack pot, or not activate if there's a higher attack pot being used.
You should know what happens when you're hit in the air, and I think that's the point Takebacker was trying to make.

Also Devil, Energy Charge doesn't stack with attack pots, it will just override a lesser attack pot, or not activate if there's a higher attack pot being used.

I'd heard other versions (namely KMS) had something like that, but does Global? I was under the impression that a newer skill/pot overwrote an older one regardless of stats currently, in Global.

No wonder your calculations are horribly wrong. Energy charge DOES NOT STACK WITH POTS. :/ They will however override the pot that's in use if the pot in use is under 20 attack. Meaning if you're using a warrior elixer, you'll be given 20 attack for a minute or so. If you're using an onyx apple, you won't get the att bonus.

About shockwave.....can an earthquake take down a plane? I'm pretty sure shockwave only attacks things as long as they're within the range of the platform. Meaning anything on and somewhat above it. In the case of horntails heads, if you use shockwave....there's no ground under the head for the attack to follow...so it'll stop right before it hits the head and do no damage. I actually forgot the other point which rei brought up, shockwave is slow as pineapple. You'll be knocked around a lot before the attack hits, so you have to reposition a hell of a lot bringing down your DPM.

About battleship...is that a legit question or are you just smartassing me? O_o I wasn't saying the ship is sturdy, i was saying that cannon is so much better than demolition that there's NO way in HELL the ship being down would make the viper catch up (or god forbid surpass) the million damage point gap cannon has over him. The only way that could happen is if the captain didn't have level 1 ship....or if the ship breaks in like literally 3 hits which, if you're at HT, will not ever happen.

If Horntail was ALL about the highest DPS,
We wouldn't have Mages, Paladins, Marksmen, and Shadowers coming along too.

Shadowers are only used for Seduce party's, and you're correct about the other classes hardly ever being allowed to come to a HT run... that's (gMS) maple....

Also Devil, Energy Charge doesn't stack with attack pots, it will just override a lesser attack pot, or not activate if there's a higher attack pot being used.

You're 100% sure Energy Charge does NOT overwrite Onyx Apples? Because's DkK's Hex of the Beholder's att buff overwrites Onyx Apples afaik... :o

You should know what happens when you're hit in the air, and I think that's the point Takebacker was trying to make.

It's only the animation of Shockwave and Levethian that renders the Character in the air...but actually your hitmodel is still standing on the ground...

Shadowers are only used for Seduce party's, and you're correct about the other classes hardly ever being allowed to come to a HT run... that's (gMS) maple....

You're 100% sure Energy Charge does NOT overwrite Onyx Apples? Because's DkK's Hex of the Beholder's att buff overwrites Onyx Apples afaik... :o

It's only the animation of Shockwave and Levethian that renders the Character in the air...but actually your hitmodel is still standing on the ground...

For some reason when they were coding energy charge they made it pot smart to not override more powerful attack pots...but for some reason didn't change it for the other skills like hex. CMS made it stack with pots though. O_o (hex not charge)

That still wasn't the point i was trying to make about shockwave though...>_<.

OK so final conclusion is:Cannon outdamages demolition but not by a very big margin!
Am i right?

EDIT:BTW Devil i dont think you are taking into account the fact that super transform also gives STR boost.......or we dont have to .I am sorry if i said something wrong i suck at maths and all XD.

EDIT 2:Ok maybe it doesnt give STR boost......

CANNON WINS~~

That's why using Shockwave / Levethian / Energy Orb when you're not Super Transformed is a better choice at bosses.

I never liked Barrage anyway...

How is shockwave/levethian/energy orb, going to do even half the DPS of barrage? all 3 of those attacks are meant to be mob attacks and not for bosses.

Reading Devil's post, it looks like it's pretty close. I guess it comes down to how long battleship will actually last during training and while bossing. Does anyone have anymore details on how much HP/damage taken when you get hit, on the battleship? I looked up both the 4th job skills table and hidden-street but found nothing.

Of course, while not super transformed, an infighter's lack of range will be a severe weakness. (see video)

[YOUTUBE]u1o80gxXDh8[/YOUTUBE]

too bad thats a pserver tho. lol

too bad thats a pserver tho. lol

well it doesn't really matter if it's a private server or not, since that's not the reason I posted the video. I talked to Devil in the IRC, and he brought up the point that if Fist(Barrage) makes you move forward while you use it, how will that work when you're standing at the edge of a platform at horntail? Will you fall down everytime you use fist too close to the edge? If energy orb (900%) damage, is actually pretty fast, it might not outdmg barrage, but it could get pretty close without you having to hug a boss. Also energy charge does damage (like power gaurd) when you're close to a monster, without you having to take damage to do damage (power gaurd). If you stand within that distance to do damage with energy charge, but far enough away to not take touch damage, and use energy orb, you might be able to keep up with barrage's damage. That's just what I think. If you look at the lvl 200 gunslinger vs 180 infighter video (ya also a private server) , you can see that energy charge has an okay range.

Also, if you're training and can keep yourself from being hit to often. You can actually make battleship last a pretty long time. Maybe even up to that 6 minute cooldown time. Just find a decent sniping spot. How about splitting crimson gaurdians with a hero at the bottom, and you sniping the top with battleship. While infighters are always going to be stuck with the 2 mins per max Super Transform.

I talked with Spadow on IRC, and he tested his KMS pirate for the Energy Charge watt effect. This is what he said:

- If you use an 8 att potion first -> +8 watt
- If Energy Charge gets activated -> +20 watt
- If Energy Charge ends it falls back to the potion -> +8 watt

So I guess this is the same thing that would happen when you're using Onyx Apples in gMS... Unless Nexon America fixed it...

- If you use an Onyx Apple first -> +100 watt
- If Energy Charge gets activated -> +20 watt (-80 watt NERF...lol?)
- If Energy Charge ends it falls back to the Onyx Apple -> +100 watt

If this is really the way Buccaneers will work in gMS, then the class fails totally...

Unless Nexon America has already seen this and fixed it somehow... :o

I dont think it happens with onyx apple....most probably there would be no effect at all..
But instead tell me whether there is STr boost with transform or not.?

I talked with Spadow on IRC, and he tested his KMS pirate for the Energy Charge watt effect. This is what he said:

- If you use an 8 att potion first -> +8 watt
- If Energy Charge gets activated -> +20 watt
- If Energy Charge ends it falls back to the potion -> +8 watt

So I guess this is the same thing that would happen when you're using Onyx Apples in gMS... Unless Nexon America fixed it...

- If you use an Onyx Apple first -> +100 watt
- If Energy Charge gets activated -> +20 watt (-80 watt NERF...lol?)
- If Energy Charge ends it falls back to the Onyx Apple -> +100 watt

If this is really the way Buccaneers will work in gMS, then the class fails totally...

Unless Nexon America has already seen this and fixed it somehow... :o

I don't see any reason why Energy Charge would work differently than other buffs; it's just that the current method of operation in Global has newer buffs overwriting older ones, while in KMS it's taking the higher value of the two active buffs instead of completely wasting one of them, which in the Onyx Apple case would be a constant +100 attack. Whether Global changes to match the KMS method any time soon is another question entirely, though.

WTH.........So i conclude...
1)Transform does not give STR boost
2)Energy charge does not stack
3)Demolition has lower DPM than most so called "boss" classes
and......i am completely discouraged from makin a brawler now

EDITae confirmed that energy charge is pot smart so it does not ruin onyx apples Watt

WTH.........So i conclude...
1)Transform does not give STR boost

Correct & Confirmed

2)Energy charge does not stack

This is not certain yet, but it's 90% likely that it doesn't stack

3)Demolition has lower DPM than most so called "boss" classes
and......i am completely discouraged from makin a brawler now

No, no, Demolition is nr.2 on solo DPM of all classes

Also don't forget Buccaneers HP <> Corsair HP. That differs a LOT!

More HP = very good to have IMHO...