Quantact Wrote:-Snipped to keep post shorter-
First things first, I wasn't referring to you. I read several of your posts before responding, all of which were formed well with intelligent, reasonable arguments. I'm more referring to the "fad" culture of contemporary America, where the average American is more concerned with looking good for their friends and supporting the latest "in" thing (be it going green, Barack Obama, Starbucks Coffee, or Uggs) rather than educating themselves about the issues or "fads" they're immersing themselves in and becoming smart, competent consumers and citizens. Again, you do NOT fall into this category, and I commend and congratulate you on your degree from Georgetown; my close friend started their this year
.However, I won't get in to details because there's a larger issue, I feel, in your response to me than anything else. Details are details; arguments and debates are based off of information that's relevant because any controversial has two sides that can be supported with legitimate information. In this case I can't refute your points by directly debunking them, but instead (and again, I won't do this) could only offer my response in the debate with more information supporting a plan like this. In the end, I believe the ideas are great; call me idealistic, but whether you agree with it or not plenty of advanced democracies, like you noted, have better health care systems that cater to all of their citizens rather than the ones who can afford it. My final comment will be regarding your friend in the other country. I believe you said:
Quantact Wrote:it took her 8 fuucking months to get an appointment for a rather nasty, (though not-emergency,) health condition; she is currently stuck waiting for another office, in a similar manner.
Congratulations, she's still alive. It only took Obama less than 20 minutes in his health care address to Congress to describe two instances in which a person DIED because they were DENIED health care, and another whose severe health condition became EXTREMELY LIFE THREATENING because she was DENIED care. Your friend is not dead, nor has she been denied care. What's the explanation for having her wait? Most likely more people in front of her with more serious conditions, so she was delayed. I guarantee you if her condition became life-threatening she would have gotten in immediately. Want to use some logic here? When an entire country is insured, there will be more trips made to the doctor's. How many people in America don't go when they need to, because of the costs, whether they're insured or not? So we need more health care infrastructure and health care professionals in order to handle the influx of patients under universal health care reform. Bingo, more jobs. Bingo, new motives for students to aspire to careers as doctors, which is more evidence for the need of a speech like the one Obama delivered. I'm not saying the system in the nation where your friend resides is good; it sounds like it, or the amount of available health care facilities/professionals, needs to be worked on. But I can tell you right American health care is HORRIBLE, even worse than that.
And using your own term, "you can't spin that away."
I love debating with people, though being a freshman in college I'm sure you'd love to pound me into the dirt. Go right ahead; I'll put up as best a challenge I can (though I think we should take it to PMs if you want to continue). My only request is that you treat me and others you debate with the respect they deserve as cognizant human beings, which is the final contention I wanted to outline after reading your response. While your post contained many excellent points and pathological examples, cursing and calling names (calling programs and people "Obamafuuck" and "bull$hit"), no matter how valid your points may seem, make you seem arrogant, stubborn, close-minded, and altogether less intelligent and mature for having the inability to choose your words and phrase your manner better. No matter how upset you may be, always remember that in a debate you must be professional and mature with your comments. And please don't disregard that comment simply because I'm younger than you. As a prominent Floridian journalist once said after being insulted and demeaned for his presentation of contentions, "I have just won the debate, because you were unable to counter my argument with anything but meaningless vulgarity."
All in all, this has been a great debate and I'd again love to continue if you wish, though not flooding a public thread endlessly.