The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread

^Genesis casts faster and has the best element.

^Genesis casts faster and has the best element.

that's when elementals come in =D?

^Genesis casts faster and has the best element.

Right, but I'm saying that AM Ults do have an advantage in some aspect.

grims are also weak to holy

Who doesn't know that? ._.
I was saying they're weak to fire as well, which is something that can't be said for the rest of your list.

*slaps* Inferno is fire and more damaging than Explosion >_> Since Holy was exclusive to Priests in 3rd job, and Priests are weak pumpernickels, White Knights were actually considered very good for a time.

Oh, well no one likes Rangers. ccpls.

Right, but I'm saying that AM Ults do have an advantage in some aspect.

Then we have elemental wands.

570 * 1.35 * 1.25 = about 970. :]
20,370 per minute.
Yay for more advantages.

grims are also weak to holy

They also aren't things which people use Genesis on typically.

I don't get why you would use an ult on a single target o_____o

The single target DPS on my Genesis is higher than my AR (about 10k DPS with neutral Gen compared to like 6k DPS neutral AR). Level 1 AR, and I know that's not what you were asking about, but yeah. To really answer your question though, the point is that many bosses have multiple parts and/or summons, particularly Zakum, Horntail, and the coming Pink Bean.

don't Paralyze and CL outdamage Meteo/Blizz on single targets?

At higher levels, yes, but again, many bosses have multiple parts and/or summons.

just an interesting thought....

Bishop VS AM solo training. Assuming the monster is neutral to holy/ice and the AM does do a little more damage...but the bishop only need to train 90.9% because of HS and AM's got to train 100% o_o...if you get me...lol

It's not perfectly balanced (it's poorly balanced I would say), but the balance to this is Booster. Mages attack faster, and this is supposed to help them get faster experience. Also notice that Mages can benefit from a Holy Magician having HS, but a Holy Magician cannot benefit directly from a Mage having magic booster.

If I had to say so, I would say that it would have made sense to make Mage's booster be a party buff, but that's neither here nor there.

genesis is faster than blizzard with a 11+ speed booster

This is a major problem with the system. The skills should be same speed boosterless, but Mage's with Booster should cast their attacks at a higher speed than Bishop's Genesis.

If you want to consider other skills of the bishop, invincible is godly. Most bishops I see take around 1.3k from newties and my archmage takes 2k.

Invincible is a necessary component to a Holy Magician's 3rd job. We'd be in for hell if we couldn't go MGless, because in many cases, what we do requires us to sit inside mobs and just take damage constantly.

One of the main arguments that makes bishops better than arch mages is the fact that the best monster to train on has [SIZE="3"]ALWAYS[/SIZE] been weak to holy.

Wrong-o. Monsters are "always" weak to holy, or weak to nothing. Sometimes they might be weak to something else as is the case with Grims being Fire weak, or with the brief time in which Vikings were taken seriously (they're weak to Lightning).

Trying to keep giving slite advantages to arch mages (okay this monster is neutral/yeah the arch mage is using an elemental staff) isn't going to make them have any edge over a bishop.

Is this in response to my post? I wasn't "trying to keep giving slite advantages to arch mages". I was pointing out the ways in which Bishops have advantage and the ways in which Mages have advantages.

Bishops have:

Holy symbol

Mages benefit from this too. Mages have Booster and Holy Magicians do not. It probably is far from perfectly balanced, but it's not broken.

Better defense skills (ER and invincible)

This is an inherent property of the sort of class that the Holy Magicians in this game are. To complain about this is tantamount to complaining that Bandits don't get to use swords or that Archers don't get to use daggers.

Friggin Heal

See above. This a key component of the Holy Magician class. The balance of this comes in the fact that it has technically limited attacking uses, and, despite being tied as fastest skill in the game, gives technically low DPS.

Resurection

This doesn't even help Bishops. It helps EVERYONE ELSE. I don't see why you would be complaining about Bishops using up 10 of their SPs to help YOU.

Ultimate that doesnt take 2x mp

This is an issue, I must admit, and the solution would be rather simple and easy to balance.

End game monsters weak to holy

Endgame is not written in stone. There are monsters in Time Temple which are weak to other elements. There will likely be endgame monsters in Crimsonwood Keep's expansion which are weak to elements beside Holy.

I don't hate mages, but it seems like Nexon just might.

Agreed, but that's another thing. Rather subclass relative balance, but I think the cross-class relations are even worse.

^Genesis casts faster and has the best element.

That's entirely subjective. Again, endgame is not written in stone and this problem can be addressed at any time, assuming the developers care to. If they don't care to address it, that's a problem at the source that is unchangeable, and no amount of pointing out injustices and/or crazy complaining will ever get anything done. I know I've been complaining about it for a long time, so I gotta admit I was a bit surprised when they made those Guardian things outside the Keep resist all elements.

In related news, a few weeks back I decided to run through a 4th job-inclusive Magician subclass DPS comparison like I did a while back before 4th came out. Barely got started on it and ran into problems and got bored. Looks like someone is just short of evaluating a new, more accurate, and more logical formula, so I'll wait a little bit, then hammer that thing out.

ps about Explosion's DPS: SR's DPS is technically lower. Also: FP Mages would practically never even try to use Explosion the way an Ice Mage would use Ice Strike, just like how a Priest doesn't really even have a shot at using SR effectively until they're almost through with 3rd job.

Then we have elemental wands.

One problem. The elemental wands are glitched, giving no elemental bonus. Granted, even without that the 130 lukless ones are very good, but AMs could be even stronger. (~Thanks Nexon?!)

I know it's a little off-topic, but I don't think ultimates should exist at all. But if they didn't then you have a problem with Arch-Mages being worthless at bosses. I suppose this requires revision on a source level (possibly ripping out the entire magic system and replacing it with a more cross-class friendly version), but as Afrobean pointed out complaining about it does nothing.

Afrobean, why do you call Bishops Holy Magicians by the way? Do you do it because Nexon completely failed at balancing the game or do you honestly think Bishops should contend with Arch-mages on all levels?

I know it's a little off-topic, but I don't think ultimates should exist at all. But if they didn't then you have a problem with Arch-Mages being worthless at bosses. I suppose this requires revision on a source level (possibly ripping out the entire magic system and replacing it with a more cross-class friendly version), but as Afrobean pointed out complaining about it does nothing.

Afrobean, why do you call Bishops Holy Magicians by the way? Do you do it because Nexon completely failed at balancing the game or do you honestly think Bishops should contend with Arch-mages on all levels?

Personally I would give up ultimate entirely if, in exchange, I got a skill that actually made me wanted/useful at bosses. Arch mages can train fine, but its entirely not fair that such a large part of the game is most often unavailable to them.

Afrobean, why do you call Bishops Holy Magicians by the way? Do you do it because Nexon completely failed at balancing the game or do you honestly think Bishops should contend with Arch-mages on all levels?

Because "Priest" is specifically 3rd job and "Bishop" is specifically 4th. Conversely, "Mage" works well to describe both 3rd and 4th.

And yes, because of the way the game's system is, Bishops do need to be contenders as attackers at 4th job and beyond, because without that ability, Bishops would be relegated to subpar experience rates and forcing them to only leech for exp. But please, that's not what this is about, please don't go "OMG NUUUUUUUUU CLERIC IS SUPPORT FUK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" because no one cares to hear it.

They also aren't things which people use Genesis on typically.

At the time, grims were the best place to train. Just like when Maple was released, coolies were the best, and so on and so forth. Sure end game monsters aren't "set in stone" to be holy weak, but following the same trend that has always been followed will most likely make the best exp, once again, weak to holy.

At the time, grims were the best place to train. Just like when Maple was released, coolies were the best, and so on and so forth. Sure end game monsters aren't "set in stone" to be holy weak, but following the same trend that has always been followed will most likely make the best exp, once again, weak to holy.

Time Temple.

Time Temple.

arent there still unreleased maps in the time temple

And those might not even be the best training maps. From what i've seen, they're to big to use ultimates in anyways.

My definenition of an end game map is the place where you get the best exp from at the highest levels. I really don't see time temple being faster than skeles. Which would still make skeles the best end game map.

Personally I would give up ultimate entirely if, in exchange, I got a skill that actually made me wanted/useful at bosses. Arch mages can train fine, but its entirely not fair that such a large part of the game is most often unavailable to them.

I agree completely. As it stands now, ultimates have made Mages absolutely broken at training while conversely horrible at bossing. I guess being bad at bossing isn't directly related to having an ultimate, but it feels like they could have replaced it with something like you suggested.

And yes, because of the way the game's system is, Bishops do need to be contenders as attackers at 4th job and beyond, because without that ability, Bishops would be relegated to subpar experience rates and forcing them to only leech for exp. But please, that's not what this is about, please don't go "OMG NUUUUUUUUU CLERIC IS SUPPORT FUK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" because no one cares to hear it.

I'm not saying that Holy-Mages shouldn't be able to do any damage because that's incredibly close minded. The Holy-Mages do need to be able to kill something or they'll do as you said. However, don't you think it's strange that the class that makes parties possible can train solo nearly anywhere faster than any non-mage class? I guess I'm saying that they should be attackers and able to kill things at a reasonable speed, but not so powerful that they'd rather train solo (I know bishops that get better exp solo). But really that just goes back to ultimates.

But again I've digressed into my long list of what "should" be in a balanced game, which this is not. All the best balancing ideas have already been said, so I guess I'll stop here.

On a somewhat on-topic note, I'm very glad Elemental Wands/Staves came out. It'll do wonders for balancing Arch-Mages with the other attackers at bosses. Though it would have been nice for Holy-Mages to have gotten one, I don't think it would have realistically helped any. For the most part, Holy-Mages do no attacking at bosses and they already train fast enough. Unfortunately they gave people even more of a reason to be luckless, but I'm sure we all knew that's how endgame would be anyway.

also hopefully they will make mages WANTED at bosses for CWK(for example making a boss that changes color. the color indicates the element that can damage to it for example: blue=fire weak, red=ice weak and so on)

Sorry, but skelegons are still faster exp than time temple monsters =/
F/P archmages could possibly get a boost off ice knights, but there's no hope there for I/Ls.

I don't put much faith in Nexon to create archmage-trainable content either.

Sorry, but skelegons are still faster exp than time temple monsters =/
F/P archmages could possibly get a boost off ice knights, but there's no hope there for I/Ls.

I don't put much faith in Nexon to create archmage-trainable content either.

The point isn't "hey grind exp on these things", the point is "hey look there are high level monsters weak to fire or ice and nothing holy-weak". It's a proof of concept, not necessarily a direct applicable solution.

And yes, because of the way the game's system is, Bishops do need to be contenders as attackers at 4th job and beyond, because without that ability, Bishops would be relegated to subpar experience rates and forcing them to only leech for exp. But please, that's not what this is about, please don't go "OMG NUUUUUUUUU CLERIC IS SUPPORT FUK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" because no one cares to hear it.

I'm not saying that Holy-Mages shouldn't be able to do any damage because that's incredibly close minded. The Holy-Mages do need to be able to kill something or they'll do as you said.

Bravo. This is the way I see it with all the "if you wanted to be an attacker, you shouldn'tve chosen priest" arguments:

If you want support class players, you'll want to give them a reason to want to play it besides being enslaved all the way through till the end. If not for this reason, then nexon should have just gone ahead and made heal a non-attack, as well as stripped the healing class of any and all offense attacks. Look at how much bossing has changed now that nobody's inspired to play a DK to DrK.

And those might not even be the best training maps. From what i've seen, they're to big to use ultimates in anyways.

That's where splitting maps comes in.

Blizzard and Meteo have harder hitting potential when on level playing field.

Genesis is much lower MP cost, and it is, by all accounts, faster as well. This means that on level playing field, Genesis has the highest DPS potential.

No endgame monsters to grind on are weak to fire or ice, yet there are holy weak. This gives Bishops heavy advantage in the goal to gain levels at endgame, although this could be changed at any time in the future.

With functional elemental weapons, the percentage based boost puts neutral Mages about on par with advantaged Bishops in attacking power (particularly if you consider a lukless Mage using the 130 wand and a Bishop using a Maple Wisdom Staff). With these weapons and a level playing field has Mages heavily in the lead (although it is worth noticing that because of the situation with monsters as mentioned above, this instance not that practical to consider).

That's all there is to it. No need for a thread really. Further discussion won't really take it any further other than for people to get mad and vent about the facts I mentioned above. I guess things could go further in depth, such as the variances in power between the two Mage attacks, but that's not really what the topic is asking for either.

On a somewhat on-topic note, I'm very glad Elemental Wands/Staves came out. It'll do wonders for balancing Arch-Mages with the other attackers at bosses. Though it would have been nice for Holy-Mages to have gotten one, I don't think it would have realistically helped any. For the most part, Holy-Mages do no attacking at bosses and they already train fast enough. Unfortunately they gave people even more of a reason to be luckless, but I'm sure we all knew that's how endgame would be anyway.

Elemental staffs/wands are not as easy to get as everyone thinks. Being gach only unless you're rich you aren't getting one.

EDIT: Give me a pineappleing break, Priests are not enslaved, that would imply they don't get anything out of it. I wish I could leech 3 jobs then get the best mob skill in the game while still being wanted on boss runs. Seriously, stop with the whole "OMG BISHOPZ HAV IT HARD QQ" bullpumpernickel.

Grims are weark to Fire, aren't they?
Although at that time, the only fire attacks were White Knights, Explosion, and Fire Arrow. Not really the best training over 100. D:

Grims are Fire+Holy weak, Ice immune. SR can still beat Explosion because Explosion's hideously slow, most F/Ps training there were using Mist for the majority of the damage.


For the time, they were the best area, but they got nerfed around when Aqua Road came out (4 levels higher, hp boost, drops shafted - remember they used to drop Kage and Devil's Sunrise... :/ ).

And then until Himes came out, Gobies/Squids/Sharks were the best training areas, which got missed in that post. Which was fine for Mages, better for Priests (5-6 man parties, which did not work as well at Grims).




It's not really a solution but I would have liked to see the Bishops get an "ultimate healing" move which would do Heal over Time, something like a 15 second buff ticking for 5k/1.5s. If they didn't have to be casting Heal all the time, they could bring out their other attacking skills more effectively.