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+---- Thread: How thorns (dual blader) works (/showthread.php?tid=23661)
How thorns (dual blader) works - KaidaTan - 2010-03-21
Tamillan Wrote:Here is some math assuming thorns doesn't work on NLs/BMs and Critical Ring stacks with se and thorns. Also SE NOT STACKING WITH THORNS.You're doing it wrong. Combo doesn't multiply crits, so it'd be more like this...
This is just skill % but you have to take Range * Skill % * Speed = DPS
Hero with se no ring=1068% we all know that
Hero with thorns + ring= (260+125+10)*0.45 + (260*0.55)=320.75%
320.75*2*1.9=1218%
Hero with SE = 1030%
Hero with Thorns + Ring = (260*1.9+125+10)*0.45 + (260*1.9)*0.55 = 555%
555%*2 = 1110%
All the rest of 'em are correct though.
Tamillan Wrote:Here is an example.I'm going to assume those ranges are max ranges rather than average. When I matched up each class with their max ranges, I got (more or less) the same numbers you got. However, at the stats that matched NLs with your max range for NLs, my Corsair was weaker than your Corsair. And when I matched up the Corsairs, your NL was stronger than mine. I'm not sure exactly how our imaginary shared gear differs, but I'm willing to bet the difference between their prospective ranges would be bigger than that.
NL range=17100
Corsair range=14800
Both of these ranges are calculated using similar funded equips. NL obviously have higher range b/c of TT 5 * multiplier instead of 3.6 for Corsairs.
NL DPS with se and no ring=17100*0.75*13.77*100/60=294k
NL DPS with se + ring= 17100*0.75*15.18*100/60=324k
Rapid Fire DPS with se and no ring= 14800*0.77*2.65*500/60=251k
Rapid Fire DPS with se + ring= 14800*0.77*3.12*500/60=296k
NL=324k
RF=296k
The difference is NOTHING.
Corsairs are mad mad strong now..............
Tamillan Wrote:What I want to know is DOES CRITICAL RING STACK WITH THORNS???? Cause if it does then im quitting maybe lol. Another thing is DOES SE STACK WITH THORNS????? I know SE STACKS WITH RING MOST LIKELY!!!!!!!!!!!!Critical ring stacks with everything. SE probably stacks with Thorns. And Corsairs don't really matter anymore. Aran and especially Dual Bladers will be out-damaging everyone else by a long shot anyway.
As a NL, there is nothing great now. ALL bosses corsairs going to do more dmg than NLs now if this is all true. Good job nexon. Ah well.
How thorns (dual blader) works - Tamillan - 2010-03-21
KaidaTan Wrote:You're doing it wrong. Combo doesn't multiply crits, so it'd be more like this...
Hero with SE = 1030%
Hero with Thorns + Ring = (260*1.9+125+10)*0.45 + (260*1.9)*0.55 = 555%
555%*2 = 1110%
All the rest of 'em are correct though.
I'm going to assume those ranges are max ranges rather than average. When I matched up each class with their max ranges, I got (more or less) the same numbers you got. However, at the stats that matched NLs with your max range for NLs, my Corsair was weaker than your Corsair. And when I matched up the Corsairs, your NL was stronger than mine. I'm not sure exactly how our imaginary shared gear differs, but I'm willing to bet the difference between their prospective ranges would be bigger than that.
Critical ring stacks with everything. SE probably stacks with Thorns. And Corsairs don't really matter anymore. Aran and especially Dual Bladers will be out-damaging everyone else by a long shot anyway.
For hero the way i did was right. It is multiplied in the end. Even Dusk's DPS excel spreadsheet has it the same way i do. Multipliers like combo, berzerk, shadow partner, bullseye, etc all multiply at the end.
NL range is max range but then i multiplied it by 0.75 to make it average range. For Corsair i multiplied by 0.77 for them since they have more mastery. I used the spreadsheets from this forum somewhere in corsair page where there is an accurate formulad spreadsheet where you plug in the equips stats and you get the range. So its all accurate and same equips for NLs. Only the weapons are different and some others instead of DEX/STR its LUK for NL, etc etc. So yeah the ranges are fine. There might be a small difference but its negligeable.
There is no way SE and Thorns will stack b/c thats just messed up. You can test it out in KMST, im sure it wont stack. Critical rings im not sure if they stack with thorns, i hope not, but even if they do its not so bad except for Corsairs the dmg is going to be massive.
How thorns (dual blader) works - KaidaTan - 2010-03-21
Tamillan Wrote:For hero the way i did was right. It is multiplied in the end. Even Dusk's DPS excel spreadsheet has it the same way i do. Multipliers like combo, berzerk, shadow partner, bullseye, etc all multiply at the end.No, you're wrong and Dusk's calculator is wrong. Aside from the testing that was just done in the Formula Compilation thread, I've tested this myself. And I've adjusted my own version of Dusk's calculator to match it. All the other things you mentioned *do* multiply at the end, Combo is just an exception.
Tamillan Wrote:NL range is max range but then i multiplied it by 0.75 to make it average range. For Corsair i multiplied by 0.77 for them since they have more mastery. I used the spreadsheets from this forum somewhere in corsair page where there is an accurate formulad spreadsheet where you plug in the equips stats and you get the range. So its all accurate and same equips for NLs. Only the weapons are different and some others instead of DEX/STR its LUK for NL, etc etc. So yeah the ranges are fine. There might be a small difference but its negligeable.Sounds kind of messy. I used my version of Dusk's calc so I know they used the same stuff, I just find it odd that our ranges are so different.
Tamillan Wrote:There is no way SE and Thorns will stack b/c thats just messed up. You can test it out in KMST, im sure it wont stack.You're just speculating -- you don't know that for sure. And being that crit rings are even coming out, it's pretty clear the current designers have no idea how crit affects classes and class balance, so I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I'm expecting Thorns to take up the innate crit slot (if it's not already filled), and SE to stack with it like how it stacks with innate crit.
How thorns (dual blader) works - Alloy - 2010-03-21
This reminds me... Is it possible that NLs get a boost in critical damage but not on chance? Like, rising from 200 to 250, because 250 is higher, but remaining with the 50% because it's higher. Considering it as a 50% damage increase only.
KaidaTan Wrote:I'm expecting Thorns to take up the innate crit slot (if it's not already filled), and SE to stack with it like how it stacks with innate crit.
I'm asuming that one for now, too.
How thorns (dual blader) works - Tamillan - 2010-03-21
KaidaTan Wrote:No, you're wrong and Dusk's calculator is wrong. Aside from the testing that was just done in the Formula Compilation thread, I've tested this myself. And I've adjusted my own version of Dusk's calculator to match it. All the other things you mentioned *do* multiply at the end, Combo is just an exception.
Sounds kind of messy. I used my version of Dusk's calc so I know they used the same stuff, I just find it odd that our ranges are so different.
You're just speculating -- you don't know that for sure. And being that crit rings are even coming out, it's pretty clear the current designers have no idea how crit affects classes and class balance, so I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I'm expecting Thorns to take up the innate crit slot (if it's not already filled), and SE to stack with it like how it stacks with innate crit.
Well i got that info of combo stuff off dusk so yeah anyways. even if it is your way. the difference is so small that its negligeable.
Well the spreadsheet i used was the NL dmg calculator in sw and corsair spreadsheet from either sw and sp cant remember but they are accurate.
Also thorns will not stack se, some guy from KMST tested it and he put in youtube and said thorns doesnt seem to increase dmg. If SE stacks with thorns? That would make other classes far too powerful and it wont make sense. Anyways rather than worrying it now. Lets just wait and see. In end you will see that thorns does not stack with se. I believe in my own opinion and it won't change unless someone really shows that it does stack.
How thorns (dual blader) works - Alilatias - 2010-03-21
So I asked Spadow over at his blog about this, particularly the Aran, Evan, and Viper/Buccaneer part. Here's a more accurate translation:
Thorns Effect
Dual Blade
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, Skill damage 250%
ex) Upper Stabs damage without crit is 245%, but with crit it is 495%
Magician
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, damage multiplied by 2.24
ex) Genesiss damage without crit is 99999, but with crit you can make it to 199999
Thorns Effect will not work on classes who have a critical skill (Night Lord and Archer)
Thorns Effect will work on classes who dont have a critical skill (Captain, Shadower, Hero, Paladin and Dark Knight)
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, Skill damage 125%
Viper
- Thorns Effect will only work when you attack stunned enemies
Aran
- Thorns Effect will only work when youre gaining combos
Evan
- Can be affected by Thorns Effect
I'm going to assume that what they mean by "Aran's Thorns Effect will only work when you're gaining combos" is that Thorns will only be in effect if Combo Critical's effect is lower than Thorns' effect.
How thorns (dual blader) works - KaidaTan - 2010-03-21
Tamillan Wrote:Also thorns will not stack se, some guy from KMST tested it and he put in youtube and said thorns doesnt seem to increase dmg. If SE stacks with thorns? That would make other classes far too powerful and it wont make sense. Anyways rather than worrying it now. Lets just wait and see. In end you will see that thorns does not stack with se. I believe in my own opinion and it won't change unless someone really shows that it does stack.Mind linking to that video?
How thorns (dual blader) works - Tamillan - 2010-03-21
Alilatias Wrote:So I asked Spadow over at his blog about this, particularly the Aran, Evan, and Viper/Buccaneer part. Here's a more accurate translation:
Thorns Effect
Dual Blade
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, Skill damage 250%
ex) Upper Stab’s damage without crit is 245%, but with crit it is 495%
Magician
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, damage multiplied by 2.24
ex) Genesis’s damage without crit is 99999, but with crit you can make it to 199999
Thorns Effect will not work on classes who have a critical skill (Night Lord and Archer)
Thorns Effect will work on classes who don’t have a critical skill (Captain, Shadower, Hero, Paladin and Dark Knight)
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, Skill damage 125%
Viper
- Thorns Effect will only work when you attack stunned enemies
Aran
- Thorns Effect will only work when you’re gaining combos
Evan
- Can be affected by Thorns Effect
I'm going to assume that what they mean by "Aran's Thorns Effect will only work when you're gaining combos" is that Thorns will only be in effect if Combo Critical's effect is lower than Thorns' effect.
Perfect thats makes sense. Can you ask him if critical ring works with thorns? and also does SE stack with THORNS?
How thorns (dual blader) works - JoeTang - 2010-03-21
KaidaTan Wrote:Mind linking to that video?
Unless they've changed it since it was released on the live server, Thorns did stack with SE and Critical Rings in KMST.
[video=youtube;xuNlf3TnIAs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuNlf3TnIAs[/video]
How thorns (dual blader) works - Link - 2010-03-21
Alilatias Wrote:Viper
- Thorns Effect will only work when you attack stunned enemies
So, I was right. Vipers got the short end of the stick again. There won't ever be love for us Vipers from Nexon </3
How thorns (dual blader) works - Tamillan - 2010-03-21
JoeTang Wrote:Unless they've changed it since it was released on the live server, Thorns did stack with SE and Critical Rings in KMST.
[video=youtube;xuNlf3TnIAs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuNlf3TnIAs[/video]
Hmm the person who uploaded the video said it doenst seem that se stacks with thorns b/c his dmg didn't increase from the ToT mobs to skele mobs.
Hero Brandish goes up to 1615% thats higher than a NL. Range and speed is same almost. So hero will do same dmg as NL. Thats rubbish.... Corsairs will have 2424% on battleship cannon and 438% RF. This means RF alone will do much higher dmg than NL's TT. THink about it. you think thats going to happen. No obviously. SE and THORNS dont stack. Well we need someone from KMST to test this out.
How thorns (dual blader) works - JoeTang - 2010-03-21
Tamillan Wrote:Hmm the person who uploaded the video said it doenst seem that se stacks with thorns b/c his dmg didn't increase from the ToT mobs to skele mobs.What video?
Tamillan Wrote:Hero Brandish goes up to 1615%
You're doing it wrong.
Tamillan Wrote:Corsairs will have 2424% on battleship cannon
Tamillan Wrote:and 438% RF.YES BECAUSE THORNS HAS 100% ACTIVATION RATE.
Tamillan Wrote:No obviously. SE and THORNS dont stack.Have you seen the video I posted or did you quote it for sh'its and giggles?
How thorns (dual blader) works - Tamillan - 2010-03-21
JoeTang Wrote:What video?
You're doing it wrong.
YES BECAUSE THORNS HAS 100% ACTIVATION RATE.
Have you seen the video I posted or did you quote it for sh'its and giggles?
What do you mean what video? the video that you just linked.....
And also for brandish it is 1615%.
260+125+140+10=535%
535*0.6+260*0.4=425%
425*2*1.9=1615%
O_O its correct lol......
How thorns (dual blader) works - JoeTang - 2010-03-21
Advanced Combo is added before Criticals, and learn to probability.
How thorns (dual blader) works - KaidaTan - 2010-03-21
Tamillan Wrote:What do you mean what video? the video that you just linked.....Dude, I *just* told you you were wrong and provided established research in the Formulae thread, and you go and make the same mistake again?
And also for brandish it is 1615%.
260+125+140+10=535%
535*0.6+260*0.4=425%
425*2*1.9=1615%
O_O its correct lol......
And Brandish isn't quite as fast as TT. It's 690ms or 630ms depending on if they have SI.
How thorns (dual blader) works - Tamillan - 2010-03-21
JoeTang Wrote:Advanced Combo is added before Criticals, and learn to probability.
Nah you are that other dude are making stuff up. Everyone knows its 1.9 times the final thing not before...where is your source lol?
Meh it doenst matter. the skill % isnt going to change much either way. Still overpowered...f5
How thorns (dual blader) works - KaidaTan - 2010-03-21
Tamillan Wrote:Nah you are that other dude are making stuff up. Everyone knows its 1.9 times the final thing not before...where is your source lol?What's it like under that rock?
How thorns (dual blader) works - Tamillan - 2010-03-21
Anyways forget the combo stuff. What i really want know is about thorns and se stacking and rings working with thorns. Very important factors that can change the game lol.
If you really are correct about combo stuff. here is the %.
Hero with se and no ring=1030%
Hero with thorns + ring=1109%
Hero with thorns+se+ring (if they do stack all of them)=1318%
Still over powered f5.
How thorns (dual blader) works - KaidaTan - 2010-03-21
Tamillan Wrote:Anyways forget the combo stuff. What i really want know is about thorns and se stacking and rings working with thorns. Very important factors that can change the game lol.NLs are still doing 1519% per hit faster than Heroes can do their 1318% per hit, and they don't require having two other classes in the party, just SE. It's not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.
If you really are correct about combo stuff. here is the %.
Hero with se and no ring=1030%
Hero with thorns + ring=1109%
Hero with thorns+se+ring (if they do stack all of them)=1318%
Still over powered f5.
How thorns (dual blader) works - Tamillan - 2010-03-22
Nah it is huge. Already heros with 1030% do as much dmg as NLs really in bosses like zakum stuff simply b/c they have awesome mobbing skills. If mob comes in the way brandish will stick hit that boss and the mobs too. While NL will only hit the mob and then attack boss. So all this makes hero very close to NL's DPS. When it comes to traniing and soloing bosses we know who is faster and better. NL really are very bad class. They are only good in parties and still not much better. With this thorns NL are going to be lower in the DPS rankings. Corsairs are going to outdmg NLs by a lot....Maybe heros.