Boss damage or ignore PDR nebulite?

Since we have the stupid multiplicative PDR formula now, how valuable is ignore PDR on a nebulite? I have a 21% ignore PDR and a 20% boss damage nebulite and I'm not sure which to use on my Katara. My current ignore PDR breakdown:

30% - Leafre Codex
50% - Phantom Blow: Guardbreak (unless this is multiplicative too? in which case it'd be what, 36%..? It's 30% base + 20% on the hyper)
10% - Ambition (9.5% currently but it's like level 98 so whatever)
15% - Luminous' link skill
21% - Nebulite (on my Empress dagger currently, when I switch to Fafnir I'll lose this though)

Not sure what to do, some help/tips would be appreciated :x

Total %boss?

Total %boss?

Oops, forgot that, currently 209% according to my stat window, I'm hoping to cube my Fafnir weapons to the same boss as my current weapons (30% * 2 on both), but the breakdown is:

40% Hero's Gloves
60% Dagger
80% Katara (60% + 20% nebulite)
11% Character cards (5% SS + 3% S + 3% S)
15% Slayer Link skill
+3% Kanna character card

...I'm not sure where the other 3% is coming from. O_o
But around that area at least.

Oops, forgot that, currently 209% according to my stat window, I'm hoping to cube my Fafnir weapons to the same boss as my current weapons (30% * 2 on both), but the breakdown is:

40% Hero's Gloves
60% Dagger
80% Katara (60% + 20% nebulite)
11% Character cards (5% SS + 3% S + 3% S)
15% Slayer Link skill

...I'm not sure where the other 3% is coming from. O_o
But around that area at least.

Did you have a set effect?

Hadriel

Did you have a set effect?

Hadriel

Only 3 set Empress, which is like 15% HP/MP and some accuracy/defence/avoid.

edit: totally forgot about Kanna's character card, that'd be the last 3% boss damage, oops!

Illusion and Illusion Guardbreak count as seperate sources of PDR.
Probably the same with all guardbreak hypers including Phantom Blow.

what's the most difficult thing you plan to kill? CPB? or should we calculate for chaos vellum? it looks pretty good for the PDR neb so far though.

Quick question while we're on the subject of PDR ignore: Do potential lines on a weapon count as separate sources of PDR? (multiply with each other) Or is it additive, then multiplicative with other items/effects?

what's the most difficult thing you plan to kill? CPB? or should we calculate for chaos vellum? it looks pretty good for the PDR neb so far though.

I don't think GMS is getting the crazy high PDR Chaos Vellum, so CPB I guess.

Quick question while we're on the subject of PDR ignore: Do potential lines on a weapon count as separate sources of PDR? (multiply with each other) Or is it additive, then multiplicative with other items/effects?

They're also seperate.

[MENTION=2375]Mazz[/MENTION]; Sorry left that message earlier 'cause I was in a rush. Number puncher here to the rescue. Pray that my tables don't fail me again. See this post for the method I'm using.

This table below is for without any Nebs i.e. if you junked your current Neb.

Leafre	Phantom Blow	Hyper	Ambition	Lightwash	Total PDR on UI	PDR Reduction Factor
30%	30%	20%	10%	15%	105%	0.2999

Your current boss damage/blah blah is 209%, so your effective damage rate is 3.09 instead of 1, which is multiplied into your range (which is irrelevant here).

The table shows your effective damage rate factoring in %Boss/blah, PDR and IgnorePDR.

PDR	No Nebs	21% IgnorePDR (Now)	20% Boss
10%	299.73	301.68	319.13
25%	285.83	290.70	304.33
35%	276.57	283.38	294.47
50%	262.67	272.40	279.67
70%	244.14	257.76	259.94
100%	216.34	235.80	230.34
120%	197.80	221.16	210.61
150%	170.01	199.19	181.01
180%	142.21	177.23	151.41

As you can see, at a boss with 70%PDR, there's not that much difference (well... 2% more for 20%Boss). Everything below goes to the %Boss Nebulite, and everything after goes to IgnorePDR Nebulite. The breakpoint is actually 78.5%PDR, but whatever.

The rationalisation for this is because your effective gain with the %Boss Nebulite is 3.29/3.09 = 1.0647 i.e. 6.47% increase in DPS, and that is constant for all bosses. That's not a lot, in contrast to taking away a chunk of a boss with massive PDR; at 100%PDR, we're talking about a PDR-ed damage rate of 0.7001 to 0.7631 with the IgnorePDR Nebulite, about an 8.5% increase in DPS from no Neb. This increase scales with the boss's PDR; for the record at 10%, 50%, 150% and 180% PDR, the increase in DPS from IgnorePDR Neb is 0.65%, 3.70%, 17.17% and 24.63%, respectively.

Hadriel

I'll just post to say that I checked a couple of hadriel's numbers, and the ones I checked are accurate. So probably no errors in the entire table.

[MENTION=2375]Mazz[/MENTION]; Sorry left that message earlier 'cause I was in a rush. Number puncher here to the rescue. Pray that my tables don't fail me again. See this post for the method I'm using.

This table below is for without any Nebs i.e. if you junked your current Neb.

Leafre	Phantom Blow	Hyper	Ambition	Lightwash	Total PDR on UI	PDR Reduction Factor
30%	30%	20%	10%	15%	105%	0.2999

Your current boss damage/blah blah is 209%, so your effective damage rate is 3.09 instead of 1, which is multiplied into your range (which is irrelevant here).

The table shows your effective damage rate factoring in %Boss/blah, PDR and IgnorePDR.

PDR	No Nebs	21% IgnorePDR (Now)	20% Boss
10%	299.73	301.68	319.13
25%	285.83	290.70	304.33
35%	276.57	283.38	294.47
50%	262.67	272.40	279.67
70%	244.14	257.76	259.94
100%	216.34	235.80	230.34
120%	197.80	221.16	210.61
150%	170.01	199.19	181.01
180%	142.21	177.23	151.41

As you can see, at a boss with 70%PDR, there's not that much difference (well... 2% more for 20%Boss). Everything below goes to the %Boss Nebulite, and everything after goes to IgnorePDR Nebulite. The breakpoint is actually 78.5%PDR, but whatever.

The rationalisation for this is because your effective gain with the %Boss Nebulite is 3.29/3.09 = 1.0647 i.e. 6.47% increase in DPS, and that is constant for all bosses. That's not a lot, in contrast to taking away a chunk of a boss with massive PDR; at 100%PDR, we're talking about a PDR-ed damage rate of 0.7001 to 0.7631 with the IgnorePDR Nebulite, about an 8.5% increase in DPS from no Neb. This increase scales with the boss's PDR; for the record at 10%, 50%, 150% and 180% PDR, the increase in DPS from IgnorePDR Neb is 0.65%, 3.70%, 17.17% and 24.63%, respectively.

Hadriel

Thank you so much!

Damn, I had no idea it would be so close at ~70% @_@ Makes this decision a little more difficult then, I'll very rarely be killing any bosses with over 70% PDR but the damage difference with a nebulite is pretty huge for Chaos Pink Bean.. it also occurred to me just now that since Nexon fixed the Root Abyss set equips to give base ignore PDR and boss damage, my stats will be slightly different. I'll have 30% more PDR and 40% more boss damage base... if you get a chance would you be able to help once more?

 Spoiler

Updated PDR sources:

30% Codex
30% Phantom Blow
20% PB: Guardbreak hyper
21% Nebulite (will be removed if boss damage is superior)
15% Lightwash link
10% Ambition
10% Root Abyss hat
10% Root Abyss weapon
5% Root Abyss top
5% Root Abyss pants

Updated boss damage sources:

60% Dagger potential
60% Katara potential
40% Hero's gloves
30% Root Abyss weapon base
30% Root Abyss set effect
25% Dagger nebulite
20% Katara nebulite (will be removed if PDR ignore is superior)
11% Character cards
15% Slayer link
3% Kanna card
3% Demon Avenger card (in around a month)

Why not use pirate char card set?

Why not use pirate char card set?

I didn't think 6% ignore PDR would be worth it, I have 3 level 12x pirates already but since Hayato and Kanna have such awesome cards I figured it wouldn't be as beneficial as the max crit & boss damage.

Isn't Ambition still broken?

@Mazz; I will trust your numbers for all that, because I'm not tracking your sources.

This table below is for without any Nebulite on your Katara.

Leafre	Phantom Blow	Hyper	Ambition	Lightwash	RA	RA	RA	RA	Total PDR on UI	PDR Reduction Factor
30%	30%	20%	10%	15%	10%	10%	5%	5%	135%	0.2192

Current %Boss is 277%, damage factor is 3.77.

PDR	No Nebs	21% IgnorePDR	20% Boss	%Increase in DPS from IgnorePDR	%Increase in DPS from %Boss
10%	368.74	370.47	388.30	0.47%	5.31%
25%	356.34	360.68	375.24	1.22%	5.31%
35%	348.07	354.15	366.54	1.75%	5.31%
50%	335.68	344.35	353.48	2.59%	5.31%
70%	319.15	331.30	336.08	3.81%	5.31%
100%	294.35	311.71	309.97	5.90%	5.31%
120%	277.82	298.65	292.56	7.50%	5.31%
150%	253.03	279.06	266.45	10.29%	5.31%
180%	228.24	259.48	240.35	13.69%	5.31%

This observation comes about because the IgnorePDR function is one that subtracts an pseudo-exponentially decaying term from unity, whereas the %Boss function contains a reciprocal term. As we know (or maybe not), exponentials dominate eventually, so what we are seeing is the increasing vanishing effect of the IgnorePDR function.

BASICALLY, the diminishing returns from IgnorePDR sets in later than %Boss, but more strongly. The new break even point is at 108% PDR.

You have the option of playing around with Nebulites, but from here you can see that it's not a simple function. Once you hit a PDR reduction factor of I would say 0.3, I would not recommend throwing in more IgnorePDR unless you're killing bosses with 100% PDR and above, in which case I won't advise using more IgnorePDR stuff if you have a PDR reduction factor of 0.25... 0.2 is really pushing it unless your sole purpose in Maple is to kill CPB and live off it's drops.

And before you make a move, I would sit on it until Girasol gives us a reply about why we received the KMS PDR system, and whether they may plan to reverse it.

Hadriel

i second the wait, on one hand you can probably solo anything below CPB (dunno new empress/chaos) so it would depend on what your main goal is, but if nexon then comes (and i hope they do) "whoops, fixed, the PDR is now actually additive!" you'd have screwed yourself up quite a bit in the wallet

Also, I just want to quickly point out that any crit damage bonuses weigh heavily on your crit chance. Is Asura 100% crit, or do you have a crit rate nearing 90%-ish? A 6% IgnorePDR from a Pirate set will give you a comparable bonus at 120%PDR and above (starting at 2% increase in DPS compared to no-set) to Hayato's min crit dmg bonus. But with the Kanna bonus, those 2 Sengoku cards give you in the order of 3.1% DPS increase, which is only matched by the Pirate set at 150%PDR and above.

tl;dr use the pirate set only if you're killing CPB or something like that, with more than 150%PDR and above.

Hadriel

[MENTION=5956]hadriel[/MENTION]; Thank you again, I appreciate the time/effort greatly! I'll wait a while until Girasol comments on the PDR system and then make a decision from there.

Double ninja'd @_@ I'm not in any particular rush (still haven't equipped my Root Abyss gear, but I have a nebulite coming from Scania whenever the world transfers go through so I figured I'd start thinking about it now), and Dual Blades have a 3rd job skill that makes every attack hit a critical for 7 seconds (which I think is affected by buff duration.. so closer to 13-14) every time you avoid an attack.. which is around 90% of the time xD

I have some max crit damage from the SS Thief card deck (I think 5%?) and then the Hayato character card is another 6% at S rank I believe, which, from what I've seen, looks like it gives a pretty nice boost at every boss rather than just a few that have ridiculously high PDR (Chaos Pink Bean pretty much alone).