Fate

Out of curiosity, does any of you believe in fate/destiny? What I mean by that is, do you believe things tends to happen for whatever reason? (Also, no, this is not a discussion about "God intends to make things happen for a reason", this is about fate. I really don't want to get into the God-debate.)

For example, let's to say you've had your bad shares of misfortune, and suddenly, one day, you met a beautiful girl. From there on, you became great friends, and even got married, and so on. Looking back at things, do you ever think that things happens because you are destined for it to happen? Or to you, does things just happen and people just tends to think way too much into it?

If you believe in fate, then you have to believe that everything in life is predestined.

pomegranate happens. That's all there is to it.

I believe in fate in SOME situations, but others I'm like "What's fate?"

>_>

Whatever happens, happens.

I think some events are predetermined/fate, but the minor events inbetween aren't. Like a major world war or your future spouse would be fate. Choosing whether or not you wanna put salt on your fries isn't predetermined, those things could go either way and not change whatever fate you're destined for.
That's what I think. >.>

Honestly, I couldn't really care less because there's nothing we can do whether or not fate exists or not. Really, it changes nothing.

I do, however, get annoyed with people who mix up predetermination and free will. They're different concepts.

techniclly, you cant disprove fate, its like playing checkers with a 5 year old

if you say its my fate to marry someone hot

skeptic says well what if your gay?

you say its my fate to be gay ect ect.

Stuff happens because of the actions you took before it. Cause and effect.

Stuff happens because of the actions you took before it. Cause and effect.

This goes back to what I said about people confusing predetermination and free will. Sure, things happen because of the actions you took, but how do you know you weren't fated to make those actions? It doesn't take the free will out of your hands, it just means you were bound to do that.

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]I don't believe in fate/destiny. If fate were to be acknowledged, what is the point of doing anything in life? Take, for instance, a homeless man on the street. Was it his fate to be a bum for the rest of his life? No, decisions that he made, and bad luck (if you believe in the concept of luck) led him to an outcome. If everything were to be left to destiny, why bother making any decisions at all? Throw the concept of control out the window because no one would have any control over anything. I refuse to acknowledge that the decisions I make today will have no impact whatsoever on what kind of future I will lead.

Now good luck/bad luck is something that I can work with.

@Wani: I don't see how anyone can confuse predetermination and free will.
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I don't see how anyone can confuse predetermination and free will.

That's a very good point. They're complete opposites.

(Also, no, this is not a discussion about "God intends to make things happen for a reason", this is about fate. I really don't want to get into the God-debate.)

I'm sorry, but that's BS. Fate is one of the things religion is built around. You can't have predetermination without someone or something determining it.

I think some events are predetermined/fate, but the minor events inbetween aren't. Like a major world war or your future spouse would be fate. Choosing whether or not you wanna put salt on your fries isn't predetermined, those things could go either way and not change whatever fate you're destined for.
That's what I think. >.>

Then I ask you: At what point does an event become just important enough for fate to step in? And to attack the "salt on your fries" analogy: heart failure from too much sodium? That seems like a pretty big event, no? I'd think that last dash of salt could've been the straw that broke the camel's back, so would that move the event into predetermined area?

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]I don't believe in fate/destiny. If fate were to be acknowledged, what is the point of doing anything in life? Take, for instance, a homeless man on the street. Was it his fate to be a bum for the rest of his life? No, decisions that he made, and bad luck (if you believe in the concept of luck) led him to an outcome. If everything were to be left to destiny, why bother making any decisions at all? Throw the concept of control out the window because no one would have any control over anything. I refuse to acknowledge that the decisions I make today will have no impact whatsoever on what kind of future I will lead.

Now good luck/bad luck is something that I can work with.

@Wani: I don't see how anyone can confuse predetermination and free will.
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Predetermination means that everything that happens was meant to happen and that can't be changed. Free will means you're responsible for your own choices. But that doesn't mean that you weren't meant to make those choices.

Like... say... for example, I know with absolute certainty that you'll have toast from breakfast tomorrow. For some unknown reason, I know this. That doesn't matter. I know it, it's fated to happen, but it was still your choice and your free will that led you to have toast and not cereal.

A lot of people will say "No, fate can't exist because I make my own decisions blah blah" but just because you made the decisions, doesn't mean you weren't going to make them anyway. Sorta.

Then I ask you: At what point does an event become just important enough for fate to step in? And to attack the "salt on your fries" analogy: heart failure from too much sodium? That seems like a pretty big event, no? I'd think that last dash of salt could've been the straw that broke the camel's back, so would that move the event into predetermined area?

I mean a major event as something that's life changing. And for you to overanalyze my analogy just seems... annoying. I mean small things like deciding if you want to make a smiley face with =] or Honestly, it should be easy to tell if something that's going on is a big event or a small one.

eg:
Your wedding/open heart surgeory/funeral (Major or minor event?)
Clipping your fingernails (Major or minor event?)
Doesn't seem too difficult to tell the difference. Just my opinion. Nothing but personal opinions. I don't feel like having to defend my opinions anymore to someone that's gonna "attack" them by overanalyzing it for their own psychological satisfaction.

I won't reply to this thread anymore. I don't think it's gonna go well. Maybe it will? (Lets find out! -watches with popcorn-)

eg:
Your wedding/open heart surgeory/funeral (Major or minor event?)
Clipping your fingernails (Major or minor event?)
Doesn't seem too difficult to tell the difference.

Actually, it can be rather hard to tell the difference. Not in those specific examples, but let's say you choose to fly on the 3:00 flight instead of the 1:45. Is that a major event to you? (And on that note, a funeral doesn't really strike me as a major event in the sense of fate. It's only important to the people that miss the deceased.)

Just my opinion. Nothing but personal opinions. I don't feel like having to defend my opinions anymore to someone that's gonna "attack" them by overanalyzing it for their own psychological satisfaction.

Well, I didn't mean to offend, so sorry about that. You shouldn't express your opinions in a forum and not expect them to be countered though. And... psychological satisfaction? I guess that is what I was looking for. I wanted you to elaborate more on your beliefs. If that's wrong of me, then again, sorry. I never mean to offend, but... I tend to never shut up either. Dx

Predetermination means that everything that happens was meant to happen and that can't be changed. Free will means you're responsible for your own choices. But that doesn't mean that you weren't meant to make those choices.

Like... say... for example, I know with absolute certainty that you'll have toast from breakfast tomorrow. For some unknown reason, I know this. That doesn't matter. I know it, it's fated to happen, but it was still your choice and your free will that led you to have toast and not cereal.

A lot of people will say "No, fate can't exist because I make my own decisions blah blah" but just because you made the decisions, doesn't mean you weren't going to make them anyway. Sorta.

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Free will, as I understand it, is a decision made upon which the person making the decision consciously and intentionally goes through with the decision for the sole purpose of achieving one thing - the end result that they made the decision for. Since you're throwing determinism (predetermination) into the mix, then the decision made can no longer be labeled as being made with free will. If the outcome was predetermined, the person making the decision did not make it of his or her own free will. Rather, they were predetermined to make that decision, and even if they were considering other options, they chose THAT decision because it was inevitable. Absolute free will is that a decision was made, and a result achieved because it was made and carried out - end of story, no conclusions about why/how it was made of any sort.

IMO, you can't have the free will to decide something, but also be "meant" to decide something just because.[/COLOR]

I'm sorry, but that's BS. Fate is one of the things religion is built around. You can't have predetermination without someone or something determining it.

that is about as vapid as 3 day old coke sitting in the sun. If your going to make an opinion at least give yourself some room to move around a bit.

There are too many factors for one person to consider in their everyday lives which can have a butterfly effect. that is one way to convey it but even this is poorly made.

Most of these examples aren't the best to use. One event can be misinterpreted as fate which seems to be the case. Here seems to be a solid example of fate. A family man spent 20 years of his life dedicated to a company only to have his career outsourced thus leaving him with no income and security for his family. He minded his manners and treated all of his co-workers with respect. It so happens that one of his colleagues hears of his termination and had already resigned to start his own business. They run into each other at some moment and begin conversing where the family man had some ideas of his own but could not dare leave the company as his family's well-being was in his hands. Long story short the family man helps start up the business having a more fulfilling life and bigger salary.

It's rather dull but this is a real example, but considering this is the internet you can choose me to be credible or not that is all up to you.

that is about as vapid as 3 day old coke sitting in the sun. If your going to make an opinion at least give yourself some room to move around a bit.

I find you insulting my opinion with no correlation to the rest of your post a bit odd, but okay...

There are too many factors for one person to consider in their everyday lives which can have a butterfly effect. that is one way to convey it but even this is poorly made.

This may be the point confusion: I never stated that a man could lead his life the exact direction he wished by his actions alone. Third party actions are an obvious deterrent of this. People you never meet nor hear of can alter your life in an instant.
I was saying that for fate to exist, there has to be some God-like figure pulling the strings. I see fate as a very integrated part of religion, but maybe that's just me.
If you're interested, I'm not a particularly religious person. I support many ideals (equality, justice, etc.) that many faiths preach, but I can't commit myself to any mainstream religion's list of rules without question. Faith and fate just strike me as excuses to be lazy. :/

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Free will, as I understand it, is a decision made upon which the person making the decision consciously and intentionally goes through with the decision for the sole purpose of achieving one thing - the end result that they made the decision for. Since you're throwing determinism (predetermination) into the mix, then the decision made can no longer be labeled as being made with free will. If the outcome was predetermined, the person making the decision did not make it of his or her own free will. Rather, they were predetermined to make that decision, and even if they were considering other options, they chose THAT decision because it was inevitable. Absolute free will is that a decision was made, and a result achieved because it was made and carried out - end of story, no conclusions about why/how it was made of any sort.

IMO, you can't have the free will to decide something, but also be "meant" to decide something just because.[/COLOR]

Hmm... I think I'm taking a more umm... different kinda, interpretation. Let's face it, we can't change the future because we don't know what's coming in the future. That's why I say everything's set in stone. I'm not saying it's set by some higher power, it's just set by the fact that we don't know what's coming so it's coming whether we like it or not. That doesn't take away our ability to make decisions, it's just those decisions are going to be made. The only way we can change the future, and thus have a future that isn't predetermined, is to be able to accurately see the future.

Most of these examples aren't the best to use. One event can be misinterpreted as fate which seems to be the case. Here seems to be a solid example of fate. A family man spent 20 years of his life dedicated to a company only to have his career outsourced thus leaving him with no income and security for his family. He minded his manners and treated all of his co-workers with respect. It so happens that one of his colleagues hears of his termination and had already resigned to start his own business. They run into each other at some moment and begin conversing where the family man had some ideas of his own but could not dare leave the company as his family's well-being was in his hands. Long story short the family man helps start up the business having a more fulfilling life and bigger salary.

It's rather dull but this is a real example, but considering this is the internet you can choose me to be credible or not that is all up to you.

I don't think that was fate. I think that was just blind luck. It happens now and then.

I don't like the concept of fate. Fate implies that something is destined to happen. Being that there is only one timeline, specifically one thing can happen. You can say that one thing was fated to happen or not, but it doesn't really matter either way because that's what did happen, weather by choice or by fate. Regardless of what you believe concerning fate, I think we can all agree that we do indeed have free will. Since we have free will, everything that happens to us will just be cause and effect.

hmmm.. not exactly...
i believe there are multiple fates.
like, you just travel some path and then the road splits into 2 ways and you need to choose - that's where fate takes a break and you need to make a decision.
so fate exists but we're the ones directing it.

i also believe in fate when it comes to things that happen in nature and in the universe.