Teacher cuts pupil's hair, mum files police report

Don't mix up Middle Eastern culture and Islamic culture. They're similar, not the same.

I was referring mainly to the Shi'a, to clarify.

Wait, this topic was about a haircut wasn't it? Why do threads I post in always go on insane tangents...

I was referring mainly to the Shi'a, to clarify.

Shi'a is a mutilated version of Islam. Islam specifically says "do not add things to the religion or else you're not muslim". Shi'as have added things to the religion that they think is important but are actually blasphemous. It's also not the biggest branch of Islam, so you're quite misguided in what you think is mainstream Islam.

First of all, at no point did I say that anything was communist except China, because it IS a communist country. And in being communist, it makes sense that they would be forced into such things. Also, I certainly didn't call communism evil or bad and democracy great.

And yes, I am calling any country that oppresses freedoms backwards. I've said it a billion times before but I'll say it again: culture is not an excuse for awful pomegranate to happen. Being forced to do something you don't want to simply because of where you live is ridiculous. We may have to tolerate those differences but we certainly don't have to like them.

Shi'a is a mutilated version of Islam. Islam specifically says "do not add things to the religion or else you're not muslim". Shi'as have added things to the religion that they think is important but are actually blasphemous. It's also not the biggest branch of Islam, so you're quite misguided in what you think is mainstream Islam.

10% is still a lot if you are referring to an entire major religion. Just because they are an incorrect form of the faith doesn't make their terrible practices any less real.

Because they are indoctrinated from birth to feel that way. A person who has never heard anything other than that they are less than a person will obviously not feel that they are more than that. In fact, if they DO feel that way, they will be ashamed of themselves and think they are arrogant. It's a terrible system of oppression, really.

Just a little anecdote about why this is not necessarily true. I had a friend in high school from the Speech and Debate team. She was born in the US, but decided to visit her parents' native Morocco. After her visit, she chose to begin wearing a what I would describe as a head scarf. As this was in Speech and Debate, we of course questioned (politely) about the sudden change. For her, the visit taught her a lot about the culture her family came from and that wearing the scarf represented pride in her culture. Her parents in no way forced her to do this. There was no law requiring upon her return to California.

That said, she was practical about it. She didn't wear it while running for track. I don't mean for this to represent all or even many Islamic or Middle Eastern cultural/religious practices. My step-mother is from Iran and has a definite mixture of pride and disgust about things that happen there.

I think it comes down to a very simple issue. Adherence to these practices MUST be choice, not law or other threat of consequences. The issue of indoctrination is complicated, but I can say with some confidence that not all of practices which most Westerners criticize are forced.

To return to the original article, I cannot help, but fault the teacher. Cutting someone's fair without permission and with the possible threat of academic consequences is abhorrent and would be considered criminal where I live (USA). It's assault plain and simple. It is the parent's responsibility to ensure the child is appropriately prepared for school in accordance with whatever the local rules are.

If you want to argue about the necessity of school uniformity, I believe that it should only matter in business relations with customers. I never personally found clothing a distraction or even an interest. Whether I was in uniform or not had absolutely nothing to do with my academic performance and that should be the only thing that matters in a public school.

I understand why it is relevant in business. If your job involves direct relations with the customer in any way, you should conform to their expectations for professionalism because it is your JOB to make them happy. Fortunately, I'm only expected to be "California casual", khakis and collared shirt. I wouldn't relish having to deal with anything more formal.

In a perfect world, everyone would think logically and judge on performance not appearance.

This is not that world.

To return to the original article, I cannot help, but fault the teacher. Cutting someone's fair without permission and with the possible threat of academic consequences is abhorrent and would be considered criminal where I live (USA). It's assault plain and simple. It is the parent's responsibility to ensure the child is appropriately prepared for school in accordance with whatever the local rules are.

If you want to argue about the necessity of school uniformity, I believe that it should only matter in business relations with customers. I never personally found clothing a distraction or even an interest. Whether I was in uniform or not had absolutely nothing to do with my academic performance and that should be the only thing that matters in a public school.

I understand why it is relevant in business. If your job involves direct relations with the customer in any way, you should conform to their expectations for professionalism because it is your JOB to make them happy. Fortunately, I'm only expected to be "California casual", khakis and collared shirt. I wouldn't relish having to deal with anything more formal.

Plus one. You basically said everything I thought about on my way home to put on this post.

Also note that the haircut topic started to veer off because we defined the haircut to be part of the school uniform, which leads to conformity, which leads to the Hijab and Islam... I'm at fault for that last part but it is a valid example of a defined clothing that would be considered conformity in an institution (in this case a religious one).

I don't think we should discuss the issue about freedom and conformity here because it strays too far and has a low flash point.

As for the bit on communist and China thing and tying that to education in Asian countries, I'm going to drop it because that's going to destroy this thread. Shall we go back to the teacher and the school system instead? I'm going to state my stand again: the student should be punished, and having the hair being cut is one of the possible punishments that are available to schools, but the teacher is wrong because I believe the teacher hasn't gone through (all) the correct channels before meting out a punishment. Let's focus on the topic on hand.

I'll also repeat the point that schools in SG want to be more... professional (those top schools like mine get a little crazy occasionally about this). The issue about image of students presented to the public... well gets a little too extreme occasionally. But I don't think this is the case for the current situation.

In this situation, the school rules about uniform and haircut are grounded based on... hmm the best guess is still culture and the traditional Asian education system (i.e. still culture). It isn't tied to communism because not all parts of Asia have communist history but yet having a defined school uniform etc. is part of school rules in so many parts of Asia (within reason of course, so things like cost in poorer parts of countries aren't counted). To tell the truth, I don't know what the basis of the rule is founded on, and there are no practical reasons to it, so culture is my best guess.

In the western context what you wear isn't important, and in all practical sense this would be the case - universities and polytechnics don't have a defined school uniform (don't count blazers) too so it is quite true that what you wear is not important, or virtually independent, of your academic abilities. Red, blue white, checkered, jeans, skirt, khakis blah blah - a book shouldn't be, and can't always be, judged by a cover. But I believe even the UK schools have school uniforms - come on I study in the UK so obviously I can tell what's a school uniform in the UK too! So what is it to say that this issue of conformity and uniform code is confined to an Asian situation? Well... you could call those schools as backwards then, but I don't see much differences in performance of the students either.

But also take note that education in school is more than just teaching and learning from books etc.; it also involves interactions between peers and teachers. If your school has a school uniform ruling and you wear something out of norm, then it makes you stick out and that will change how people interact with you - make you more popular, make you ostracised etc. - and this can affect the academic learning in school. A school is effectively a mini-society - live by the rules, and/or live along the rules; live against the norms and... well... get the popcorn.

/edit: I apologise for the long post, but I wish to keep this discussion focused closely on the issues that matter most, while giving a strong argument on all the points that matter. Also, thanks Ray for your edit.

Hadriel

10% is still a lot if you are referring to an entire major religion. Just because they are an incorrect form of the faith doesn't make their terrible practices any less real.

10% isn't "Islam in general"

can we not talk about how absurd having a school rule that requires you to have short hair is and talk about how absurd parenting is getting lately. police report for a simple snip snip really ? what is the police going to do ? lock up that teacher ?

My hair has always been somewhat long for a guy, My high school had certain rules on haircuts yet I was never confronted about it. If I was asked to cut it I would have done but if the teacher dared to do it for me I'd do the exact same as this kids mother.. It's a violation of rights and power. Hope the teacher gets fired.

[MENTION=2935]DeanNim[/MENTION]; You seem to be missing the point. Yea the parent was a bit over the top however you don't do something to someones kid without telling them first. This whole thing could have been avoided with a simple phone call that would go something like "Hey I'm your kids teachers hes been constantly disobeying the hair rule. You have two options we can A: suspend him for breaking the rule and he can't come back till he complies with it There is a big test coming up soon so do it quickly like tomorrow quickly. Or B: I got some clippers right here I can cut his hair and he can stay in school if you don't like the cut feel free to change it when he gets home just make sure it falls within our standards.

This call didn't happen so here we are.

can we not talk about how absurd having a school rule that requires you to have short hair is and talk about how absurd parenting is getting lately. police report for a simple snip snip really ? what is the police going to do ? lock up that teacher ?

You keep under minding the child as an idiot because you grew up thinking that short hair is ultimately necessary to thrive in life. The reaction and/or rule itself is pretty petty and has little to no significant value when it comes education. The right thing to do was to confront the parent about it, and if the parent wasn't compliant, take the action to suspend. This is what a civilized adult/country would do.

You keep under minding the child as an idiot because you grew up thinking that short hair is ultimately necessary to thrive in life. The reaction and/or rule itself is pretty petty and has little to no significant value when it comes education. The right thing to do was to confront the parent about it, and if the parent wasn't compliant, take the action to suspend. This is what a civilized adult/country would do.

did not say short hair is necessary to thrive in life. and if youre talking about culture, this is asia.. anything the teacher does to you(punishments), your parents do it twice. parents are supposed to discipline their child, not pamper them and grow up to be strawberries.

and in fact, the teacher saved his ass from being barred from the exam(by cutting his hair), because you're not allowed to have long hair to sit of the oral exams.

@DeanNim; You seem to be missing the point. Yea the parent was a bit over the top however you don't do something to someones kid without telling them first. This whole thing could have been avoided with a simple phone call that would go something like "Hey I'm your kids teachers hes been constantly disobeying the hair rule. You have two options we can A: suspend him for breaking the rule and he can't come back till he complies with it There is a big test coming up soon so do it quickly like tomorrow quickly. Or B: I got some clippers right here I can cut his hair and he can stay in school if you don't like the cut feel free to change it when he gets home just make sure it falls within our standards.

This call didn't happen so here we are.

This.

You keep under minding the child as an idiot because you grew up thinking that short hair is ultimately necessary to thrive in life. The reaction and/or rule itself is pretty petty and has little to no significant value when it comes education.

Maybe. This is why we're here to discuss it. The rule isn't petty though, because it's not exactly based on an opinion (unless you'd like to clarify what you meant? I'm not exactly getting it actually). And as for the reaction, fair enough.

The right thing to do was to confront the parent about it, and if the parent wasn't compliant, take the action to suspend. This is what a civilized adult/country would do.

Fair point. Plus one. Arguably the teacher is indeed a little uncivilised, but I'd pay a couple of bucks for the popcorn to actually know what the teacher was thinking then.


It is not absurd for schools to have a uniform code - wear this, that, keep your hair short and tuck in your shirt/blouse. I can flip the tables around on you right now and say that it is absurd not to have rules on a defined uniform, at least up till high school, because every school in an Asian city goes by those rules so we grow up in those mindset. If you keep looking at us with such eyes, then so can we; there's no point calling us things that we find offensive and we throwing them back with our own descriptions of you all. Would you like it? I don't think so. Do you think we like it now? I don't think so either. Can we please keep this nice and civilised?

Please do not put the actions of the teacher/student/parent and the validity of the rule together. They're entirely different issues.

So, is having a uniform code important in education? This should be the question we should be throwing daggers at. It is not whether the rule is petty, stupid or inconsequential or whether it's rooted in culture or whether its backwards. Those are repercussions, whether in opinions or causally affecting reality, but that's not the issue right now, and we will, and do, find those descriptions of the rules/culture offensive, if not very. We're just not lashing out because those are opinions that we still respect.

I don't think a discussion on ridiculous parenting brought up by Dean is a bad idea, but we should do that on another thread. It really is getting fairly ridiculous, to tell the truth, but a suitable example should be utilised (that does not include this current one =.=).

/edit: I'm suddenly reminded of the fact that the Russell Peter's video (that very famous one) had a little bit on the parenting issue...

Hadriel

Fair point. Plus one. Arguably the teacher is indeed a little uncivilised, but I'd pay a couple of bucks for the popcorn to actually know what the teacher was thinking then.


It is not absurd for schools to have a uniform code - wear this, that, keep your hair short and tuck in your shirt/blouse. I can flip the tables around on you right now and say that it is absurd not to have rules on a defined uniform, at least up till high school, because every school in an Asian city goes by those rules so we grow up in those mindset. If you keep looking at us with such eyes, then so can we; there's no point calling us things that we find offensive and we throwing them back with our own descriptions of you all. Would you like it? I don't think so. Do you think we like it now? I don't think so either. Can we please keep this nice and civilised?

Please do not put the actions of the teacher/student/parent and the validity of the rule together. They're entirely different issues.

So, is having a uniform code important in education? This should be the question we should be throwing daggers at. It is not whether the rule is petty, stupid or inconsequential or whether it's rooted in culture or whether its backwards. Those are repercussions, whether in opinions or causally affecting reality, but that's not the issue right now, and we will, and do, find those descriptions of the rules/culture offensive, if not very. We're just not lashing out because those are opinions that we still respect.

I don't think a discussion on ridiculous parenting brought up by Dean is a bad idea, but we should do that on another thread. It really is getting fairly ridiculous, to tell the truth, but a suitable example should be utilised (that does not include this current one =.=).

/edit: I'm suddenly reminded of the fact that the Russell Peter's video (that very famous one) had a little bit on the parenting issue...

Hadriel

The idea of uniform and such isn't an issue, it's common over here too, specifically for private schools. The response of the teacher seems barbaric too me, but if the government supports that, then I don't think they are any better. Discipline in school is water down'd over here, on account of all this sensitive bull sh`it, but even I think that was over the top.

Just to clarify I feel the actions of the teacher is barbaric, even if it was good intentions. I don't believe she should lose her job for it though, I don't think she did something THAT cruel.

and in fact, the teacher saved his ass from being barred from the exam(by cutting his hair), because you're not allowed to have long hair to sit of the oral exams.

It's just an exam. Personally, I would have chosen not to take the exam rather than get a haircut. This kid wasn't even given that option.

It's just an exam. Personally, I would have chosen not to take the exam rather than get a haircut. This kid wasn't even given that option.

So you'd just stay in elementary school forever? The passing of the exam is required to graduate.

Actually the government has no play in this respect. It advocates discipline and harmony and unity (and wadever else you wish to throw in here), but the Ministry of Education has no prescribed directives as to what kind of punishment would be met out if one breaks school rules i.e. it is entirely within the discretion of the school to punish a student for going over the line. MOE would only tell schools to give suitable disciplinary action, and would give examples of punishment e.g. caning, suspension, rustication for the super severe ones, and writing lines, detention, standing outside/behind the classroom during lessons for those little things. But these days I'm fairly confident that MOE has added a couple of unwritten line before that: counsel the student first, and then inform the parents first before meting out punishment. Why did you do that, what were you thinking, are you repentent, would you seek to mend your ways etc.; these are then followed by "your child was/has _______________, and we would like to inform you that these actions are against school rules, and would lead to disciplinary action [maybe with a "such as..."] whether in the form of a phone call or a letter". Simple. Usually 2 letters are given out, since schools like to play it safe now, but...
So the teacher is undeniably in the wrong for being too... err... hot-headed [we still don't know for sure what transpired her to do that!], and the government has nothing to do with it. The other 2 principals are simply providing an example of what they would have done instead [and also show just how careful schools have to be when dealing with disciplinary action, for the fear of getting into trouble with parents!]. I talked about all the uniform issue because some here seemed to have an issue with it.

It's not any exam. It's a national exam - all primary school students take that exam (save those in private schools). Screw it up and you're pretty screwed for many years to come. Takes too long to repair that damage.

Hadriel

Actually the government has no play in this respect.

It never specified in the original post. Is this a public school? If it is a public school, than I believe some portion of the government (federal, local, whatever) should be responsible for establishing some sort of oversight. It's what the government is for after all.

This is a public school. What the ministry can do [before an incident], I've already described in the above post. If there are issues with the disciplinary actions, then there are avenues to raise them e.g. complaints to the ministry, the principal etc.; if the issue is valid an investigation would be set up and the usual downstream processes that we wouldn't hear about would begin. The government does... relatively little. It's not as if every punishment must go through the ministry first before being met out... such centralisation is impractical.

What kind of oversight do you mean? Like making sure that such incidents don't occur? I mean... this is a fairly rare incident - and now that beating the student (in any form) by teachers is no longer allowed (and has been hammered in like nobody's business in the teaching academy) (and caning not counted, because it must go through the principal now), we don't see much of such things. So... I'm not sure how much having governmental oversight would help in reducing such incidents - sack the teacher and send out a warning to all? That nearly backfired before.

Hey Dean, did you hear PM Lee's rally? Just like what we're seeing now. Some parents complain that teachers are too soft, some complain that teachers are too strict. Wth do we do?

Hadriel

So you'd just stay in elementary school forever? The passing of the exam is required to graduate.

It's not the only school in the entire world.