Gunslinger Build (Lv. 10-200)

Like sins you can shoot in mid-air. For instance during float.

That sure is some tasty torpedo damage. Perhaps you should switch bullseye and torpedo around depending if you go on boss runs or not?

I laughed when you brought torpedo up at this point. This is what i sent shrapnel yesterday, and the changes mentioned are already implemented in our gunslinger guide on basil.

I started on a Pserver with captains ship working, which i think i told you about in our last string of PMs yes?

Well, having recently been maxing torpedo and amp i've kinda discovered something interesting that before publishing in our guide should see your and saphs eyes so it isn't just an idea.

The question i wondered was basically "which is better, torpedo or burner and cooling with amplification?"

Having played around a lot i realized how both methods play out in mobbing monsters and basically came to the conclusion that amplification makes torpedo much less useful than it already was. I've been talking to kazoo about it for the past hour since we're re-vamping both our guides and he agrees with me. xD

Yeah, i still know that mobbing doesn't happen that much in 4th job, but it's still worth it to use the most advantageous mobbing skill for when it does.

Here are my reasons:

1) Torpedo allows for almost NO mobility. With burner and cooling, it's VERY easy to jump around the map alternating between the two whereas with torpedo you're basically stationary while doing it. Of course you can demount and move around, re-mount and torpedo some more but that wastes a lot of time. There's also the option of moving around IN the ship and burner/cooling about but the ship is insanely slow ; much slower than regular speed. Not to mention you can't move as much with the help of recoil in the ship.

2) Looking over the lists of high level training spots, nothing is resistant to anything except for a select few. On those resistant or immune, mobby monsters, torpedo is technically better. The only resistant monster torpedo would be amazing at is one place in GMS though, which is crimsonwood guardians which would probably get us worse %/h compared to skeles/newties and also because of my next point.

3) If you're going to mob at all, the mobs are going to do relatively high, survivable, damage very fast. After discovering battleships real HP, it's pretty obvious that mobbing in the ship is a fairly bad choice because it will break faster. Regardless of whether or not you're 19x with 13x+ HP on the thing, lower exp is pretty bad. O_o

4) Burner and cooling is faster than torpedo by at least 23 casts a second. (100 compared to torpedo's 77) I think you know how fast they both are when alternated, but the thing is that torpedo is MUCH slower than what we thought before. Previously torpedo was thought to be as fast as cannon and....that's no where near true. This makes the raw damage cap smaller, and that's not even counting the now extremely significant DoT damage burner would be doing.

Also, both skills work very very well on a macro.

5) Maxing amp earlier is advantageous for the longer freeze as well, but we're going to do 16 amp -> support octo -> max amp in our build.

6) Bouncing off #5, because maxing amp is useful for it's freeze as well it allows you to hold off on torpedo until other skills are maxed. This means skills like homing, MW, support octo, etc etc can be at a higher level thus making you stronger.

There is probably more that i forgot in our monstrous conversation, but i think those points are enough to show that amp makes burner and cooling better to use over torpedo.

Torpedo is good for your build since it does not max burner, but because of all that mobbing with amp is more advantageous than torpedo.

For the record, #6 i didn't send shrapnel and with mid level amplification and a 100%ed peacemaker i can hit 10ks with burner very easily and 5-7ks with cooling. I can probably do 20-25ks on fire weak with max amp.

Also, for raw damage percents since amp increases both cooling and burner by 200% i think that makes the percents per second 780% (torpedo) vs 682% (B & C). I'm not entirely sure since saph hasn't confirmed but yeah. Further more, if the monster is weak to one element and neutral to the other then mobbing that monster becomes stronger than torpedo. I don't think that ever happens though so it's not that big a deal.

Any idea by how much AMP actually boosts Flamethrower/Ice Spitter? I remember this question came up a few months ago when this guide was still in its early stages. We were debating whether an earlier AMP would be beneficial.

I guess if what you're saying is accurate, Fire Burner isn't totally useless since it'll provide a good mobbing method once the ship breaks. I guess it would be better to max it over Gaviota since it'll provide more options. Maybe I'll change the 3rd job build once more info surfaces.

However, I don't think Torpedo is that bad. Mobility isn't a problem since you're freezing the monsters before attacking them anyways. And like you said, you can easily demount the ship to travel between monsters. That video really shows how powerful Torpedo is since she was 3-4 hitting mobs of Skeles. It's also more bullet efficient since you don't need to carry 3 different types of bullets to maximize damage.

Any idea by how much AMP actually boosts Flamethrower/Ice Spitter? I remember this question came up a few months ago when this guide was still in its early stages. We were debating whether an earlier AMP would be beneficial.

I guess if what you're saying is accurate, Fire Burner isn't totally useless since it'll provide a good mobbing method once the ship breaks. I guess it would be better to max it over Gaviota since it'll provide more options. Maybe I'll change the 3rd job build once more info surfaces.

However, I don't think Torpedo is that bad. Mobility isn't a problem since you're freezing the monsters before attacking them anyways. And like you said, you can easily demount the ship to travel between monsters. That video really shows how powerful Torpedo is since she was 3-4 hitting mobs of Skeles. It's also more bullet efficient since you don't need to carry 3 different types of bullets to maximize damage.

From what i know, it boosts it up by 200%. Splitter becomes 330% maxed and burner becomes 360% maxed.

I don't think torpedo is bad either, it's obviously better on element resistant monsters. It's just that maxing amp and mobbing with that (and doing comparable damage) is more beneficial than wasting the points maxing torpedo when you can easily spend that on MW or octo and be much stronger. Bullet efficiency i have to disagree, slot efficient i think is what you meant. Also, unless you're using burner and cooling CONSTANTLY to mob (and i mean constantly) one set of capsules is enough to last you a very long time. Not like it'll cost an arm and leg to carry them around anyway. O_o You basically can't afford not to have them, since you'll be doing half damage making the entire style worthless.

Yeah, slot efficient was what I meant. The slots that are used to carry Blaze Capsules could be used to carry regular bullets instead, or even Ciders which most ranged classes use.

Also, what does the +5% bullet damage mean with Amp? I'm guessing instead of Glaze/Blaze Capsules doubling, it multiplies by 2.05?

Going by the formulas on your guide (ignoring the +5% bullet damage until I know what it means):

Burner 30 + Cooling 26 + Amp 30 (neutral) = ((360% * 6) + (322% * 6)) / (.6 + .6) = 3410%/sec
Burner 30 + Cooling 26 + Amp 30 (fire advantage, Ice neutral) = ((360% * 6 * 1.5) + (322% * 6)) / (.6 + .6) = 4310%/sec

Battleship Torpedo = (780% * 6) / [60/77] = 6006%/sec

Battleship Torpedo is still significantly stronger in terms of DPS, even with fire advantage, unless I miscalculated.


Regarding SP, Battleship Torpedo and Amp both take the same amount of SP to max so that really isn't relevant.

Yeah, slot efficient was what I meant. The slots that are used to carry Blaze Capsules could be used to carry regular bullets instead, or even Ciders which most ranged classes use.

Also, what does the +5% bullet damage mean with Amp? I'm guessing instead of Glaze/Blaze Capsules doubling, it multiplies by 2.05?

Going by the formulas on your guide (ignoring the +5% bullet damage until I know what it means):

Burner 30 + Cooling 26 + Amp 30 (neutral) = ((360% * 6) + (322% * 6)) / (.6 + .6) = 3410%/sec
Burner 30 + Cooling 26 + Amp 30 (fire advantage, Ice neutral) = ((360% * 6 * 1.5) + (322% * 6)) / (.6 + .6) = 4310%/sec

Battleship Torpedo = (780% * 6) / [60/77] = 6006%/sec

Battleship Torpedo is still significantly stronger in terms of DPS, even with fire advantage, unless I miscalculated.


Regarding SP, Battleship Torpedo and Amp both take the same amount of SP to max so that really isn't relevant.

Ciders? wtp? O_O I've never heard of any ranged class use those things especially since they always peach about having no room for projectiles. xD

+5% bullet damage would refer to the DoT i think, which i have no idea how it's calculated.

That's damage per second right?

3410% x 100 = 341,000% per minute
6006% x 77 = 462,462% per minute

Damage gap gets smaller, but damage per minute on mobs is irrelevant anyway. Add in DoT and maybe max maple warrior or something and that's a pretty good trade. Also, i have no idea if saph put in amp correctly, because those calculations are fairly old. xD

...I don't think you're getting the picture with SP. O_O If you use amp to mob instead of torpedo, you won't have much need to max torpedo whose points would go into maple warrior or support octo 10 levels earlier instead of another mob skill...not to mention maple warrior affects all skills.

Edit: There's also the matter of skills being easy to obtain. Torpedo 20/30 drops from pianus and pap so...

Ciders? wtp? O_O I've never heard of any ranged class use those things especially since they always peach about having no room for projectiles. xD

+5% bullet damage would refer to the DoT i think, which i have no idea how it's calculated.

That's damage per second right?

3410% x 100 = 341,000% per minute
6006% x 77 = 462,462% per minute

Damage gap gets smaller, but damage per minute on mobs is irrelevant anyway. Add in DoT and maybe max maple warrior or something and that's a pretty good trade. Also, i have no idea if saph put in amp correctly, because those calculations are fairly old. xD

...I don't think you're getting the picture with SP. O_O If you use amp to mob instead of torpedo, you won't have much need to max torpedo whose points would go into maple warrior or support octo 10 levels earlier instead of another mob skill...not to mention maple warrior affects all skills.

A lot of them actually do use Ciders, at higher levels at least. 20 Ciders are good for an hour, or 12 if you're a Night Lord. They're well worth the 20 attack boost.

The damage gap does get smaller, but that gap is still over 120,000%.

Well, by the same reasoning, if you don't max Amp, you can max Torpedo earlier and thus you can max Maple Warrior and Support Octopus earlier. The only advantage that Amp offers over Cannon is the extra timer on Ice Spitter. However, that extra second becomes less and less important as you level up. That level 154 Corsair was already 2hko-ing Skeles with Cannon and managed to kill off entire mobs with just 1 freeze and Torpedo.

But good point about the skill books, Pap skill books seem to be a lot rarer these days. -_-

A lot of them actually do use Ciders, at higher levels at least. 20 Ciders is good for an hour, or 12 if you're a Night Lord. They're well worth the 20 attack boost.

The damage cap does get smaller, but that gap is still over 120,000%.

Well, by the same reasoning, if you don't max Amp, you can max Torpedo earlier and thus you can max Maple Warrior and Support Octopus earlier. The only advantage that Amp offers over Cannon is the extra timer on Ice Spitter. However, that extra second becomes less and less important as you level up. That level 154 Corsair was already 2hko-ing Skeles with Cannon and managed to kill off entire mobs with just 1 freeze and Torpedo.

But good point about the skill books, Pap skill books seem to be a lot rarer these days. -_-

If that attack boost changes things that is. Like you said later on in the post, attack becomes less and less relevant as time goes on. 8 attack isn't going to make a difference if you ohko, which you WILL do well before 15x if cannon is maxed. 20 ciders? O_O How do people have that much room without increases? >_> I doubt it'll work for corsairs, because they need the room for bullets, pots, capsules, and other things they might have. Not to mention NLs can deal with having much less stars than corsairs will bullets and archers don't need the room at all.

Which is irrelevant because DPM is never needed. It was just for lulz. :3

"The only advantage that Amp offers over Cannon is the extra timer on Ice Spitter." You do mean torpedo right? O_o Why do corsairs get it if the timer is insignificant? The reason is because of security. If you're mobbing monsters in front of you and something comes up behind you, you're going to freeze it. If you don't get amp, that freeze is going to wear off much faster taking away from your mobbing time. If your torpedo sucks ass, you're going to get hit a lot more because the freeze will wear off and the monster will attack you. This becomes more important torpedoing because your reaction time and vulnerability is much higher in the ship. If you were using burner and cooling, it's extremely easy to keep the monsters at bay without risking damage to the ship. This whole scenario is taking place early on though. I wouldn't really use the captain in this video as an example because for some reason she sacrificed air strike and maxed rapid fire for torpedo, which is a pretty bad move in my opinion.

Edit: Another thing, amp is useful right away since it mobs 6 monsters immediately. Torpedo doesn't mob 6 monsters until level 21 and doesn't mob 5 until level 11. Even if it's low leveled, cannon will outdamage it.

It's not the damage that's most important here, it's the other advantages that come with the style.

What i would do is make two builds, both with maxed burner in 3rd, that suggest maxing amp in place of torpedo depending on what skill is more available to you.

Yeah, I meant Cannon...wow I'm really off today.

I was assuming that most Captains would max out their Use slots considering that they need all the space they can get. I think they get 52 slots max, which is enough for 20 Ciders, and at least 15 sets of bullets. Here is what I would carry in 4th job:

900/600 Honsters/Ginger Ales (6 Slots) (Ales are pretty good once you have 4.8k+ Hp)
300 Sorcerer Elixirs (2 Slots)
100 Return Scroll - Nearest Town (1 Slot)
100 Strawberry Milk & Fruit Milk (2 Slot) (For repotting Ciders)
200 Pet Food (1 Slot)
200 Revitalizer (1 Slot)
20 Ciders (20 Slots)

That leaves 19 slots for bullets, which is plenty. 19 sets of the level 110 bullets equals over 60k bullets in total, or over 50k if it's the level 90 bullet.

Though it's true that the extra DPS becomes irrelevant once you can 2HKO with Cannon, but it still boosts the DPS of your other skills, such as Air Strike, Rapid Fire, and Torpedo.

The thing with Amp is level 1 already provides a 1 second boost in freeze time. It doesn't increase to 2 seconds until level 16, which is a lot of SP for a small boost at that level.



Anyways, I will admit that Flamethrower is a lot more appealing now. I was firmly against it before but now I am considering maxing it in 3rd job. I will post alternative builds eventually.

Yeah, I meant Cannon...wow I'm really off today.

I was assuming that most Captains would max out their Use slots considering that they need all the space they can get. I think they get 52 slots max, which is enough for 20 Ciders, and at least 15 sets of bullets. Here is what I would carry in 4th job:

900/600 Honsters/Ginger Ales (6 Slots) (Ales are pretty good once you have 4.8k+ Hp)
300 Sorcerer Elixirs (2 Slots)
100 Return Scroll - Nearest Town (1 Slot)
100 Strawberry Milk & Fruit Milk (2 Slot) (For repotting Ciders)
200 Pet Food (1 Slot)
200 Revitalizer (1 Slot)
20 Ciders (20 Slots)

That leaves 19 slots for bullets, which is plenty. 19 sets of the level 110 bullets equals over 60k bullets in total, or over 50k if it's the level 90 bullet.

Though it's true that the extra DPS becomes irrelevant once you can 2HKO with Cannon, but it still boosts the DPS of your other skills, such as Air Strike, Rapid Fire, and Torpedo.

The thing with Amp is level 1 already provides a 1 second boost in freeze time. It doesn't increase to 2 seconds until level 16, which is a lot of SP for a small boost at that level.



Anyways, I will admit that Flamethrower is a lot more appealing now. I was firmly against it before but now I am considering maxing it in 3rd job. I will post alternative builds eventually.

I wouldn't really assume everyone will use the NX on it. :X Not everyone can/is going to. :/

Edit: Don't forgot scrolls/other use pomegranate they might have? Lol. :X

That's probably what i would carry around too, but are those stupid milks worth it? I thought they only worked when in zipangu. O_o

I mean you can mob with it right away. I know when it increases to 2 seconds, but you wouldn't use torpedo right away.

I wouldn't really assume everyone will use the NX on it. :X Not everyone can/is going to. :/

That's probably what i would carry around too, but are those stupid milks worth it? I thought they only worked when in zipangu. O_o

I mean you can mob with it right away. I know when it increases to 2 seconds, but you wouldn't use torpedo right away.

Fair enough I guess.

The milks only work in Zipangu, but most towns have a Tour Guide. Basically it's Town Scroll -> Showa Milk (I forgot which one) -> Zipangu Milk then get your Bishop to door you back

Good point about Amp there, can't argue with that.

Fair enough I guess.

The milks only work in Zipangu, but most towns have a Tour Guide. Basically it's Town Scroll -> Showa Milk (I forgot which one) -> Zipangu Milk then get your Bishop to door you back

Good point about Amp there, can't argue with that.

Ahhh. Meh. I would just use showa milk -> stock up -> buy shrine milk -> xD Guess that means one less cider, but i wouldn't carry around lots of showa milks anyway. I'm fond of walking everywhere anyway so wasting the money when i can easily do that isn't so great to me.

Now i remember. do you or Kazoo know how the HP works for Battleship?

Now i remember. do you or Kazoo know how the HP works for Battleship?

4k HP per SP point, 2k HP for every level past 120.

That's damage per second right?

3410% x 100 = 341,000% per minute
6006% x 77 = 462,462% per minute

Oh boy, This coming from the person doing all the calculations on basil. XD

To convert damage per second to damage per minute, you multiply by 60 secs/ in a minute.
So they would be
204,600% per min
360,360% per min

Ofcourse, converting dosent really tell us much because the are both being multiplied by 60.

However, I did make a build very similar to yours. The benifits of a good mobbing combination to me out way the loss of 8% dmg from cooling and gaviota. I also changed the gunslinger portion a bit aswell to make lmpqing easier.

Edit: About your calculations on basil, the shots per second for invis 30 and Burst Fire should be .6818. Invis is at .66 which is wrong and Burst is a .69 which is just rounding but, I think its a big enough difference.

Edit 2: Now that i look at it the burst fire in all of the 3-mobing calculations are also .66

Oh boy, This coming from the person doing all the calculations on basil. XD

To convert damage per second to damage per minute, you multiply by 60 secs/ in a minute.
So they would be
204,600% per min
360,360% per min

Ofcourse, converting dosent really tell us much because the are both being multiplied by 60.

However, I did make a build very similar to yours. The benifits of a good mobbing combination to me out way the loss of 8% dmg from cooling and gaviota. I also changed the gunslinger portion a bit aswell to make lmpqing easier.

Pineapple, iguys stupidity is rubbing off on me. >_________>

Ironically, this exact same situation happened to me when someone tried to prove me wrong about captains outdamaging NLs except i was the one to point it out to him. LOL. Regardless, DPM isn't ever relevant. xD

Edit: All those were done by sapphire8, so talk to him about it. :/

Edit: About your calculations on basil, the shots per second for invis 30 and Burst Fire should be .6818. Invis is at .66 which is wrong and Burst is a .69 which is just rounding but, I think its a big enough difference.

Tick counts. In the world of game coding, there is no such thing as .6818 repeating.
http://www.southperry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3217

On the subject of Burner/Cooling vs Torpedo, Torp wins hands down. Even spamming Air Strike with nothing in between cooldowns probably gets you higher DPS than Burner/Cooling+Amp, assuming you hit the same number of monsters with both (which is actually probably easier to do with Air Strike).

I also thought of something else. What about maxing Air Strike first and spamming it at a place like CGs?

Cannon DPS: 380% * 4 / .66 = 2303%/s
Air Strike + Triple Fire DPS: (1200% * 6 + 210% * 3 * 6) / 5 = 2196%/s

This way, you won't have to worry about your Ship breaking every three seconds during the first few levels because you don't use it regularly using such a playing style, and then when you do start using Cannon it'll have plenty of HP from level ups.

Edit: Then again, Air Strike 20 is an HT book...

Air Strike only attacks 6?!

I thought it was like a Mage/Bishop's ultimate and attacked 15...did ever attack more than 6?

I'm fairly certain it's always been 6, though it may have been nerfed from 15.