The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread

How about they give us maps where the Ultimates are not the completely overpowering method of training or something :/

Maps like CWK Crimson Guardians?? (immune)
Or Maps like in Time Temple? (size issues)

CGs do too much damage to be useful for anything ._.
(-from BM/MM/NL point of view-)

Maps like CWK Crimson Guardians?? (immune)
Or Maps like in Time Temple? (size issues)

Luckily for us F/P archmages, I've found that you can hit three lanes from the third lane from the bottom =] (we get the only ultimate elemental weakness in the temple).

CGs do too much damage to be useful for anything ._.
(-from BM/MM/NL point of view-)

I've actually heard of marksmen training there; it seems like they'd be nice because of the huge mobbing. I heard that blind is great there since they can't be frozen. For other classes, they're pretty nice for heroes, dark knights, and shadowers who don't want to go through the inconvenience of finding an ultimate spammer at skelegons/newties. They seem quite good for fire demon too (in comparison to other classes, meteor training overshadows this obviously).

Luckily for us F/P archmages, I've found that you can hit three lanes from the third lane from the bottom =] (we get the only ultimate elemental weakness in the temple).



I've actually heard of marksmen training there; it seems like they'd be nice because of the huge mobbing. I heard that blind is great there since they can't be frozen. For other classes, they're pretty nice for heroes, dark knights, and shadowers who don't want to go through the inconvenience of finding an ultimate spammer at skelegons/newties. They seem quite good for fire demon too (in comparison to other classes, meteor training overshadows this obviously).

I was dissapointed that the fire mobs weren't weak to ice, but then i realized we still do much more dmg on them than anyone else

It's not because they make other classes appear to train slower, it's for the sake of game balance. The "tiers" you're talking about don't have to exist, as online games can be changed through patches. Nexon just doesn't care enough. And I don't think giving everyone an ultimate will be a good idea; 4th job is powerful enough and the game is easy enough already as it is.

Tiers exist in everything. They exist in game, in real life, and in school. You can't say they should equalize the pay for a Janitor and a Doctor for the "sake of balance". A Janitor will always be considered a low tier job (atleast in the USA) and the doctor a high tier job. In school, AP classes are top tiers while slowed down classes are bottom. Same with MS. DKs and Bishops are arguably the 2 most needed and useful classes where Paladins and mages aren't (no offense).

No matter what you look at, there will always be a best and worst.

Maps like CWK Crimson Guardians?? (immune)

3 of my elements are shared with ultimates, so the only way elemental immunities help me is if they're immune to everything except Lightning.

I don't know what the time temple maps are like, maybe that would be good enough




AP classes and being a doctor are higher tiered because they take more work and intelligence. You don't need any of that to play a Mage, just sit in one spot and get more exp than anyone else >_>

Tiers exist in everything. They exist in game, in real life, and in school. You can't say they should equalize the pay for a Janitor and a Doctor for the "sake of balance". A Janitor will always be considered a low tier job (atleast in the USA) and the doctor a high tier job. In school, AP classes are top tiers while slowed down classes are bottom. Same with MS. DKs and Bishops are arguably the 2 most needed and useful classes where Paladins and mages aren't (no offense).

No matter what you look at, there will always be a best and worst.

This is a game, not real life; paladins and archmages can be brought up with a patch, or dark knights and bishops can be brought down with a patch.

This is a game, not real life; paladins and archmages can be brought up with a patch, or dark knights and bishops can be brought down with a patch.

The whole janitor/doctor comparison can also be changed with a amendment or resorting to communism. The fact that it won't change is because if you work hard for something, you deserve the benefits al la doctors.

Most bishops were basically forced to leech for optimal experience through out most of their careers. They had to get the 40% while all of the other classes got the 60%.

If they want to fix it, they would have already. It's like how AMs and Bishes can walk while charging BB or the zerk hp % has been raised to 45%.
If nexon deems a change necessary, it'll happen. Bishops also almost have another class take bottom so i still don't see how their training slows you down.

I think you misunderstand. No one said that they shouldn't be strong or that they shouldn't be able to solo decently. We're not saying completely destroy Bishop's ability to kill, just lower it a bit so that it doesn't eclipse all the non-mage classes by a landslide.

I've said it before. Cut any portion of Genesis (range, mob hit, or damage) and it ruins it. What you're suggesting to make it "fair" would make it so that it's only useful in situations where the skill is DEFINITELY broken already (such as hitting 15 things at once, which, in case you didn't know, never really happens). Cut the effectiveness of the attack and it becomes no more helpful to a Bishop than SR. I know I'm getting to a bit of a broken record here, but Genesis's per hit DPS is only 1.5x SR. Cut the damage and Bishops will just go back to SRing Dreamy Ghosts, cut the range and Bishops will go back to SRing Dreamy Ghosts, cut the amount of monsters hit... well actually... that probably wouldn't stop them from fighting at Skele, but hitting 6 things max won't really be that much of a change from the current system, because like I said, we CAN hit 15 at once, but it never really happens.

Once again, I have to refer to Super Apples that quintuple damage. Why not, right? By your logic, it's perfectly fine since it helps everyone.

I don't appreciate the condescension. You're neglecting to notice that there is a difference between arguing in favor of an unfair status quo and arguing in favor of an unfair change to the system.

But we're aiming for balance, not making the game easier.

Balance doesn't exist in MapleStory. Give up on your aim, because you'll never hit your target.

I think you're starting to not read arguments and dismiss them as "omg bishops are too strong nerf nerf." We're not that stupid. Once again, I'm suggesting that Bishops neither be weak nor strong.

Every class is strong in some way. You want Bishop's to only have one strength, the ability to heal and dispel at bosses. I am arguing in favor of maintaining the status quo that also gives them the strength of fast experience, which, in turn, makes Bishops a common class and also gives back to everyone else in that all Bishops need to party and this encourages them to open up to training methods that extend beyond, as you put it, "soloing".

Perhaps (very) slightly below the killing power of Arch-Mages on neutrals, and higher than Arch-Mages on Holy-weaks. And yes, replace ultimates with some other skill that allows them to train with more than just AR and Bahamut. Also, for the record, anyone who says Bahamut is overpowered is retarted.

...

You obviously do not understand the way things work or the way things would work if a system like you are suggesting were to be adopted. Bahamut isn't unfair as is because it doesn't help that much. But put them in an environment like Dreamy Ghosts and you'll see Bahamut's effectiveness increase by a large margin. Arguing to cut Genesis and replace it with a stronger SR puts Bishops back into an environment where they only thrive as attackers in maps like Dreamy Ghosts. You take away Genesis and I guarantee that most Bishops wouldn't set foot in Skele or Newts.

I trained with Priests all the time around then so I know very well how much stronger they were than me. However, though they were strong there (as they deserved to be so because of what you said), they still were within a reasonable range of damage. They weren't killing things 3 times faster than everyone else, only slightly. Also they were encouraged to party because their mob skill didn't allow them to train faster alone than in a party.

This is not true. Also, your statements about how advantaged Bishops are (funny how you specifically talk about only Holy Magicians rather than all Magicians...? Freudian slip, much?) is inaccurate as well. Calculate the total DPS of a Bishop (or, really, Mage), then compare it to the total DPS possible from the other classes. I assure you that it is not 3 times greater.

___________________________

I don't think that bishops shouldn't have a strong attack. They deserve one to be on par with others in training speed. Right now though, genesis makes bishops much, much stronger than any other class other than archmages. I listed those support skills to show their usefulness in bossing, not training. And the fact that bishops are needed in pretty much every high-leveled training party and bossing squad is not bishops' problem, it's a problem with the way the game works. Perhaps if, for example, paladins got holy symbol, and advanced charge blow was weakened accordingly, as genesis should be. I think paladins deserve a bit of a boost.

The idea about Paladins actually sounds pretty good.

But are you seriously suggesting that Paladins deserve to be weaker?

This is the mentality that is the problem here. You're all in favor of giving great things, then you want to turn around and take other things away. No, Bishops having Dispel, Holy Shield, and Resurrect is not a justification for them to be weak (read: weaker). Why do you people claim to aim for balance when EVERYTHING IN THE GAME IS IMBALANCED. You want balance? Throw the whole game out the window and start from scratch, because that's the only way that's possible.

By the way, I don't train with bishops anyways, so I don't really care that they wouldn't party with me, lol. I only party low-level bishops as leeching hs mules.

"All I see Bishops as useful for is HS, and I think that's the way it should be 8)"

But seriously, giving them a weaker skill than genesis won't make them not train with other classes. They'll still split skelegon maps, for example, with other classes, even if they can't push a button to kill an entire screen of monsters.

No, they won't. Tell a Bishop to use SR at Skele. They'll laugh at you for telling them to use an attack like that when they can only hit 2 or 3 monsters at once. Why screw around there when they could go to Dreamies, split with another Bishop, and hit 2x as many monsters at once with SR?

I didn't think that priests were inferior or anything; in fact, I thought that the 3rd job priest was very well designed for its time having gotten an offensive skill that was slightly weaker than those of other classes yet able to give them similar exp rates.

Hahahaha.

No. SR is slightly weaker than the other Mage attacks, but the fact that Holy-weak is all there is at endgame made Priests strive. Priests, even before they were broken by Genesis, were formidable fighters, who, even if they didn't fight at all, got good experience. Do you see where I'm going with this? You're mad about Bishops getting crazy experience, but we've been getting crazy experience since 2nd job!

Bishops don't have the appearance of being strong, they ARE strong, and you really can't say much to argue against that because genesis makes bishops undeniably stronger during training than at least seven (nine with pirates) of the other classes.

What I was saying was that appearance is more important than fact. In 3rd job, Priests were able to hold their own, and with proper gear and skill, even advance beyond all other classes. This is in addition to their "very valuable support skills", which in truth, is limited to the one Holy Symbol.

They should be inferior in power, given their very valuable support skills, but I'm not saying that they should be inferior to a point where they don't get enough experience compared to other classes.

Seriously, do you realize what you just said? Here, let me repeat it for you:

"They should be inferior in power, given their very valuable support skills..."

THEY SHOULD BE WEAKER BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUPPORT SKILLS

Which, as I've already made clear, is limited entirely to HS. You think we care that we have Dispel, Holy Shield, or Resurrect? pomegranate, we can use All cures on ourselves, and not like we can bring ourselves back to life. THOSE THINGS ARE FOR YOUR SORRY ASSES. Don't tell us we have to be weak because we have skills to help you. pineapple that.

I just want to have class balance, not to completely tear apart bishops.

There is no way you could enact such a massive change to the status quo without tearing the entire fabric of the game apart. Just stop for a minute and imagine Nexon released an anouncement saying "Bishops are too strong for their party skills, we're removing Genesis. Happy Mapling~!" Can you imagine the pomegranatestorms that would ensue? Not just from Bishops mad that they'll be relegated back down to their position they held in 3rd job, but also folks of the other classes that have come to rely on Bishops in their parties? I assure you that a large number of active Bishops would quit if this were to happen. Just the same as I would imagine would happen if Nexon made an announcement saying "Nightlords are too strong for their party skills, we're removing Triple Throw. Happy Mapling~!"

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It's not because they make other classes appear to train slower, it's for the sake of game balance.

The entire game is imbalanced. The only way to have the balance you're asking for is to have all characters play exactly the same. All classes would have the same skills, all characters would do the same damage regardless of equipment.

That's the only way to achieve the balance you claim to desire.

The "tiers" you're talking about don't have to exist, as online games can be changed through patches.

This can only shift the imbalances though. So they remove Genesis, all Bishops quit and start playing Nightlords instead. So everyone complains about how advantaged Nightlords are. So they remove Onyx Apples, nerf Triple Throw, and make Haste a bandit-only skill. So all Nightlords quit and start playing Heroes. Then people peach about the insane damage possible from Brandish and how unfair scrolled shields can make things. So they nerf Brandish and make shields not able to add attack anymore. So everyone quits Heroes and starts playing FP Mages. Then everyone peaches about how Mist can killsteal an entire map without effort, so they nerf Mist to make it only able to hit 6 monsters at once.

Yeah, BALANCE IS pineappleING AWESOME.

Nexon just doesn't care enough. And I don't think giving everyone an ultimate will be a good idea; 4th job is powerful enough and the game is easy enough already as it is.

If it's so easy what the pineapple are you peaching for.

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AP classes and being a doctor are higher tiered because they take more work and intelligence. You don't need any of that to play a Mage, just sit in one spot and get more exp than anyone else >_>

The "work" in this case, is the fact that Bishops, despite being wanted for bosses, do not get to really fight.

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This is a game, not real life; paladins and archmages can be brought up with a patch, or dark knights and bishops can be brought down with a patch.

WHAT

pineapple THAT.

DKs don't need to brought down. They need to be brought UP. Seriously. HOYL SHIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

DKs are disadvantaged so heavily in 4th job, even though they're MORE NEEDED THAN BISHOPS ARE. "oh wah wah wah they did so good in 3rd, they deserve to suck balls in 4th". No. NO ONE DESERVES TO SUCK. Besides, them being so advantaged in 3rd is JUSTIFIED IN THAT THEY'RE SO ENTIRELY NEEDED FOR ENDGAME BOSSES.

This can only shift the imbalances though. So they remove Genesis, all Bishops quit and start playing Nightlords instead. So everyone complains about how advantaged Nightlords are. So they remove Onyx Apples, nerf Triple Throw, and make Haste a bandit-only skill. So all Nightlords quit and start playing Heroes. Then people peach about the insane damage possible from Brandish and how unfair scrolled shields can make things. So they nerf Brandish and make shields not able to add attack anymore. So everyone quits Heroes and starts playing FP Mages. Then everyone peaches about how Mist can killsteal an entire map without effort, so they nerf Mist to make it only able to hit 6 monsters at once.

Yeah, BALANCE IS pineappleING AWESOME.

Equal, not less than.

Who said anything about removing Genesis? Or Blizzard or Meteo, which you didn't mention for whatever reason?

Small adjustments don't cause mass migrations. People didn't all start playing CBs because Chakra was made semi-useful, or Snipers because the IA piercing modifier was increased, or Paladins because HH cooldown was shortened.

-lots of crap about going back to Himes-

So? Nowhere did Nexon declare that Skele has to be THE endgame map for bishops. If they got something that enabled them to kill Himes much faster instead, I'd be all for it.

This is not true. Also, your statements about how advantaged Bishops are (funny how you specifically talk about only Holy Magicians rather than all Magicians...? Freudian slip, much?) is inaccurate as well. Calculate the total DPS of a Bishop (or, really, Mage), then compare it to the total DPS possible from the other classes. I assure you that it is not 3 times greater.

http://www.sleepywood.net/forum/showthre...?t=1433135

Yes, it's 3rd job DPS, but it's still a valid comparison if you make some adjustments.

Single Target
...
2h Crusader - 23,659
...
6 targets
...
Priest vs. holy weak - 50,404

Now. Single target for a Sader is using Power Strike, or 364% damage. In 4th job, that becomes 988% per hit with Brandish:
23,659 * 988/364 = 64,217

As for the Priest, Genesis as you say is 1.5x stronger than SR on a single target. Also, say with Gene you can hit an average of 10 monsters per cast.
50,404 * 1.5 * 10/6 = 126,010

Maybe not three times, but it says something.

Equal, not less than.

Who said anything about removing Genesis? Or Blizzard or Meteo, which you didn't mention for whatever reason?

The general idea here is that Genesis needs to be nerfed because Bishops have SO MANY AMAZING SUPPORT SKILLS. Clearly, many people are more worried about Bishops being powerful than about Mages, even if a Mage's power actually greatly surpasses the Bishop's.

Small adjustments don't cause mass migrations. People didn't all start playing CBs because Chakra was made semi-useful, or Snipers because the IA piercing modifier was increased, or Paladins because HH cooldown was shortened.

The things you mentioned were improvements, not nerfs. Small improvements to skills are not the same thing as massive game-mechanic shifting nerfs.

So? Nowhere did Nexon declare that Skele has to be THE endgame map for bishops. If they got something that enabled them to kill Himes much faster instead, I'd be all for it.

This would destroy the current system. For everyone still at Skele and Newts, how would you like to NEED a leeching little weakling of a Priest (or maybe a low level Bishop) in your party rather than simply being able to have a strong Bishop? Won't happen if you "balance" Genesis, because all the Bishops will go to Dreamy Ghosts and strive with their SR++ and Bahamut.

Or quit the game altogether.

Now. Single target for a Sader is using Power Strike, or 364% damage. In 4th job, that becomes 988% per hit with Brandish:
23,659 * 988/364 = 64,217

As for the Priest, Genesis as you say is 1.5x stronger than SR on a single target. Also, say with Gene you can hit an average of 10 monsters per cast.
50,404 * 1.5 * 10/6 = 126,010

Maybe not three times, but it says something.

Does hitting 10 at once occur that often that you should use it as the baseline for comparison? Anyway, the point that it's not 3x was all I was trying to make, and you've proven that well enough. Yeah, I could have done it too, but coming from me, the numbers wouldn't have meant a thing because of my obvious and heavy bias.

AND ANYWAY, the point I'm trying to make isn't that it's not unfair. It's that the status quo shouldn't change by so much, particularly when the entire game is made of similar imbalances. You yelling "it's unfair" over and over won't do a thing to slow me. Pulling out numbers that prove it's not fair won't do a thing. I'm not arguing that it's fair; I'm arguing that you shouldn't be so pissed off about the unfairness you seem to be so concerned with.

I've said it before. Cut any portion of Genesis (range, mob hit, or damage) and it ruins it. What you're suggesting to make it "fair" would make it so that it's only useful in situations where the skill is DEFINITELY broken already (such as hitting 15 things at once, which, in case you didn't know, never really happens). Cut the effectiveness of the attack and it becomes no more helpful to a Bishop than SR. I know I'm getting to a bit of a broken record here, but Genesis's per hit DPS is only 1.5x SR. Cut the damage and Bishops will just go back to SRing Dreamy Ghosts, cut the range and Bishops will go back to SRing Dreamy Ghosts, cut the amount of monsters hit... well actually... that probably wouldn't stop them from fighting at Skele, but hitting 6 things max won't really be that much of a change from the current system, because like I said, we CAN hit 15 at once, but it never really happens.

What's so bad about Dreamy Ghosts? Just because they might get better exp there, that doesn't mean every Bishop ever will be there. People will still train at Skelegons or Newties and it won't matter too much. Besides, at least then the training speeds between classes will be relatively balanced.

(Just off the top of my head, the Gene nerf I'm thinking of is something like... Make the range 300 with very little vertical range, cut the power by half or so, reduce the MP cost to around 1000 or less, and lower the casting time a lot.)

I don't appreciate the condescension. You're neglecting to notice that there is a difference between arguing in favor of an unfair status quo and arguing in favor of an unfair change to the system.

There is no way you could enact such a massive change to the status quo without tearing the entire fabric of the game apart. Just stop for a minute and imagine Nexon released an anouncement saying "Bishops are too strong for their party skills, we're removing Genesis. Happy Mapling~!" Can you imagine the pomegranatestorms that would ensue? Not just from Bishops mad that they'll be relegated back down to their position they held in 3rd job, but also folks of the other classes that have come to rely on Bishops in their parties? I assure you that a large number of active Bishops would quit if this were to happen. Just the same as I would imagine would happen if Nexon made an announcement saying "Nightlords are too strong for their party skills, we're removing Triple Throw. Happy Mapling~!"

I think your second quote is just as extreme as my apple thing. Nightlords don't even have good party skills; how is that even a point? And removing Genesis, as we've agreed on, is stupid. If they were to do that, it should be replaced with another skill that makes them more able to train. You're oversimplifying our arguments and showing them in a stupid, extremist light.

Balance doesn't exist in MapleStory. Give up on your aim, because you'll never hit your target.

Then what's happening here? This thread has clearly turned into what should be as opposed to what is, so I ask you, what are you arguing in favor of? If you were to make a game, would it be full if imbalances and severe differences in class tiers by design? Or would you aim to make the game balanced and have each class have a point.

Disclaimer: I'm NOT saying make every class the same. That's fucking retarded. I'm saying that while classes have differences and excel in one point or another, no class should be better than any other class by such an extreme margin as in Maple.

You obviously do not understand the way things work or the way things would work if a system like you are suggesting were to be adopted. Bahamut isn't unfair as is because it doesn't help that much. But put them in an environment like Dreamy Ghosts and you'll see Bahamut's effectiveness increase by a large margin. Arguing to cut Genesis and replace it with a stronger SR puts Bishops back into an environment where they only thrive as attackers in maps like Dreamy Ghosts. You take away Genesis and I guarantee that most Bishops wouldn't set foot in Skele or Newts.

There aren't enough Dreamy ghost maps to support that many Bishops. Ideally I'd like to train in a 2-attacker party at the bottom of Newts, but there simply aren't that many Newt maps. And even though that's the best exp for my class, many Bowmasters still choose to go to Skelegons. Why? You tell me, I dunno.

This is not true. Also, your statements about how advantaged Bishops are (funny how you specifically talk about only Holy Magicians rather than all Magicians...? Freudian slip, much?) is inaccurate as well. Calculate the total DPS of a Bishop (or, really, Mage), then compare it to the total DPS possible from the other classes. I assure you that it is not 3 times greater.

3 is arbitrary. Still, note that other classes have to spend time MOVING. Arch-Mages and Holy-Mages, not so much. Sure my potential DPS might be higher than a Bishop constantly hitting 5 targets, but then I'm not always standing in place hitting one target now, am I? And, at the moment, Bishops are the most advantaged because the best mob is holy-weak. But that's more of a problem with the game than the classes. I'm not sure you've heard about this, but a Bishop that can OHKO skelegons all the time with Gene trains better solo than with any party member.

This can only shift the imbalances though. So they remove Genesis, all Bishops quit and start playing Nightlords instead. So everyone complains about how advantaged Nightlords are. So they remove Onyx Apples, nerf Triple Throw, and make Haste a bandit-only skill. So all Nightlords quit and start playing Heroes. Then people peach about the insane damage possible from Brandish and how unfair scrolled shields can make things. So they nerf Brandish and make shields not able to add attack anymore. So everyone quits Heroes and starts playing FP Mages. Then everyone peaches about how Mist can killsteal an entire map without effort, so they nerf Mist to make it only able to hit 6 monsters at once.

I don't know who "people" is and I really don't give a damn. The idiot populous will always complain about something. Every average joe in the country thinks they know exactly what's wrong with the economy and how to fix it, but that doesn't make them right or smart.

For good game balance, generally speaking, this is what needs to be done: fixing the Crash skills, removing Onyx Apples and making marriages worthwhile in some other way, and making Paladins, Dark Knights, and Shadowers better.


Once again though, the real question I wanted to ask you was what are you arguing in favor of if it's not balance?

The whole janitor/doctor comparison can also be changed with a amendment or resorting to communism. The fact that it won't change is because if you work hard for something, you deserve the benefits al la doctors.

Most bishops were basically forced to leech for optimal experience through out most of their careers. They had to get the 40% while all of the other classes got the 60%.

If they want to fix it, they would have already. It's like how AMs and Bishes can walk while charging BB or the zerk hp % has been raised to 45%.
If nexon deems a change necessary, it'll happen. Bishops also almost have another class take bottom so i still don't see how their training slows you down.

Doctors are on a "higher tier" than janitors because they worked hard for it. In maple, you just have to talk to grendel and push some buttons.

Priests' leeching does not put them at a disadvantage at all. They've traditionally gotten great exp in low third job, and they had the option of attacking at himes in upper third job. Only one third job class can get anywhere near 60% an hour without 2x, and it requires a lot of skill to do so. If you're talking about post-2007, level 95+ priests train the fastest out of any third job class. Back when I trained at newties, I could level up a leeching, hs-botting priest in like 2-3 hours, and the priest doesn't even have to work for it. Also, Nexon has shown many times that it has no idea what it is doing; I'm sure lots of people here know more about the game itself (not programming, etc.) than Nexon.

I'll respond to everything else later... blahh I'm kinda tired right now.

The general idea here is that Genesis needs to be nerfed because Bishops have SO MANY AMAZING SUPPORT SKILLS. Clearly, many people are more worried about Bishops being powerful than about Mages, even if a Mage's power actually greatly surpasses the Bishop's.

My point wasn't about Mages vs Bishops. My point was that no one's in favor of an outright removal of Ultimates.

The things you mentioned were improvements, not nerfs. Small improvements to skills are not the same thing as massive game-mechanic shifting nerfs.

Giving Ultimates a 5 second cooldown or requiring a small combo/charge for 'Ultimate-mode' isn't as massively destructive than you make it out to be. Perhaps larger than tweaking Chakra and Snipe, but I just don't see everyone abandoning their Bishops over it. Maybe the botters, but no one else.

This would destroy the current system. For everyone still at Skele and Newts, how would you like to NEED a leeching little weakling of a Priest (or maybe a low level Bishop) in your party rather than simply being able to have a strong Bishop? Won't happen if you "balance" Genesis, because all the Bishops will go to Dreamy Ghosts and strive with their SR++ and Bahamut.

Follow the Bishops, then.

Or quit the game altogether.

If it's really that extreme, do a global SP reset.

Does hitting 10 at once occur that often that you should use it as the baseline for comparison?

Maybe not, but a Bishop is Genesising for a much larger portion of training time than a Hero is Brandishing. They have to do something called walking, which is noticeably absent in the current most effective training for Bishops/Mages.

Maybe not, but a Bishop is Genesising for a much larger portion of training time than a Hero is Brandishing. They have to do something called walking, which is noticeably absent in the current most effective training for Bishops/Mages.

Here's an idea...

Get a couple Bishops and a couple Heros, NLs, etc. to give soloing exp/hour rates.

You can directly convert exp per hour into damage per second if you know what monster they were killing (hp & exp) - obviously you have to account for HS/2x card bonuses here and give the actual exp you get per kill.

For example, on my Paladin I get around 2m/hr at Red Wyverns soloing. Since they're 2500 exp 53000 exp, I am killing 800, doing 42,400,000 damage, for a total of around 12000 damage per second.


Running in the fact that I'm using ACB @ 330%, that represents approximately 15% efficiency. 85% of my potential damage is gone due to map concerns (mostly the fact that Red Wyverns rarely mob larger than 3-4, and it takes a while walking between mobs)

You guys are missing the point. You seem to think I enjoy imbalance.

I'm not arguing on the side of imbalance. I am arguing on the side of maintaining the status quo. Ideally, a nerf is fundamentally a bad thing. I'm not saying these things aren't imbalanced, I'm saying that since they're in the official game now, they shouldn't be changed as drastically as some of you want. And if they were to be changed, they shouldn't be changed to appease the people who don't even have the skills. It's not like this game is PVP, another person having a skill doesn't have any effect on you, except as far as that person would use it to help you in a party.

All that could possibly be done for fairness's sake, in my opinion, would be to increase the cast time by a small degree*. You people asking for cutting the damage and range don't get the point of the attack, nor the point of AoE and advanced AoE. For whoever that was above who mentioned cutting damage, range, and cast time, that would either be unfairly strong or unfairly weak. You cut it too little, and now Magicians would be still too strong and thus, the nerf serves no point but to enrage them. You cut it too much and the advantage of 4th job over 3rd becomes too little. And don't even try to suggest that Nexon would be able to hit the sweet spot between the two, because no matter where it falls on the scale, people will be mad about it.

*As well as even the scales as far as Mage/Bishop is concerned, cost, cast time, and monster availability. However, notice that no Mage would complain about their cost being lowered or more monsters being available; nearly every single person who mains a Bishop would be thoroughly enraged to be placed back down into the same position they held in 3rd job. This relates back to the idea that nerfs are fundamentally bad, and frankly, have little to no place in a game such as this.

ps someone tried to challenge the DPS discussion: why? Why, really? We can all agree that they're stronger than everyone (and I personally say, rightfully so, given the situation we are comparing DPS in). The question which should be addressed is whether them being stronger than everyone hurts anyone and whether the imbalance being fixed via a nerf is worth enraging the Bishop player base.

You cut it too much and the advantage of 4th job over 3rd becomes too little.

DrKs.

And the status quo doesn't change much if mages get an alternative to ultimate-spamming that's perhaps equally, or nearly equally as effective yet requires them to actually do something.

It's not just the fact that mages can out-DPS every other class by a large margin in practical situations. It's that they can out-DPS every other class while standing in one place and holding down a button.

DrKs.

And the status quo doesn't change much if mages get an alternative to ultimate-spamming that's perhaps equally, or nearly equally as effective yet requires them to actually do something.

It's not just the fact that mages can out-DPS every other class by a large margin in practical situations. It's that they can out-DPS every other class while standing in one place and holding down a button.

1. MP cost.
2. If we still trained this fast without ultimates, people would peach even more due to the lack of a high MP cost.

3 of my elements are shared with ultimates, so the only way elemental immunities help me is if they're immune to everything except Lightning.

I don't know what the time temple maps are like, maybe that would be good enough

Like I said earlier I am FOR an elementally WEAK monster with insane Mdef.
Which would cater to Paladins. < one with high EXP and good Drops-
Hell, give it some reason to use Magic Crash too-

Nexon said that CWK II is for elementalists- but its prob just for Mages/Bishops.
Maybe just Mages if they are nice.
Paladins will still be screwed unless we get monsters that have high Mdef.

Huh?

Why do monsters need to remove other classes for them to be good for Paladins? Just because Mages are able to fight well on the map doesn't mean that Paladins can't fight well on the map as well. This is a fundamental problem that people seem to have in this area; other people having a strength does not make you weak. If the issue is simply that you're concerned about available maps, I wouldn't fret. A single good map of elementally weak is better than no map at all, isn't it? And anyway, look at how Nexon America designs maps. There will be a few monsters and these monsters will appear in different setups in multiple different maps.