JapanMS - Open-To-All Test Server; May 16th ~ 30th

1.182 is the critical multiplier for Paladins. 0.84 is the attack speed.

Shadow Partner gets multiplied by multipliers, and ends up doing 200% damage when you have Advanced Combo (2x), Enrage (1.6x), and Chance Attack (1.25) = 0.5 * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25.

1.182 is the critical multiplier for Paladins. 0.84 is the attack speed.

Oh. Well then I'd love to see your math, because I'm pretty confident in saying "you're wrong."

Again, my math:
Paladin
(1.5 + 1.41) / 2 = 1.455 <- average critical multiplier
1.455 * .57 (critical rate) + 1.0 (normal damage) * .43 = 1.25935

Shadow Partner gets multiplied by multipliers, and ends up doing 200% damage when you have Advanced Combo (2x), Enrage (1.6x), and Chance Attack (1.25) = 0.5 * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25.

I don't understand your point; you're not telling me anything I don't know.
Multiplication is multiplication.

Unless there's something magical about Shadow Partner that I don't understand, it adds 50% of your total damage; that makes it a 1.5 multiplier.
A Hero's total damage would already include ACA, Enrage, and Chance Attack, so you would just multiply the total damage by 1.5.
Again, a Paladin's charges would act the same exact way except the multiplier is 1.495 (or .5% less than that of Shadow Partner).

That said, I don't even see where you included Shadow Partner in your calculations for a Shadow Hero.
I see:
"Shadower Hero: 210% (Intrepid Slash) * 3 (# of hits) * 3 (I have no idea what this is) * 2 (ACA) * 1.6 (Enrage) * 1.25 (Chance Attack) * 1.0175 (critical multiplier) / 0.84 (speed) = 9157.5%"

Basically, Shadow Partner hits are 50% of your normal hits, however, when there are multipliers involved, they multiply with Shadow Partner in a way that causes something like Shadow Partner hits becoming 200% of your normal hits, as in, they'd be double the damage of their corresponding hits instead of half. This is why Shadower SP hits with Assassinate can hit the damage cap so easily, and why NLs were able to hit the damage cap with Shadow Partner hits when the Pyramid PQ Buff glitch was happening.

So basically, instead of doing 100% + 50%, meaning 1.5x damage, you'd do 100% + 200%, meaning 3x damage.

The percentages being a percentage of your damage, as in 100% would be full damage. But really, my example kinda makes no sense since, because for some reason the SP damage had a multiplier but the normal damage didn't, but you get the idea.

Oh. Well then I'd love to see your math, because I'm pretty confident in saying "you're wrong."

Again, my math:
Paladin
(1.5 + 1.41) / 2 = 1.455 <- average critical multiplier
1.455 * .57 (critical rate) + 1.0 (normal damage) * .43 = 1.25935

I forgot Combat Orders, but Paladins don't get 20% Critical Minimum from anywhere.

I don't understand your point; you're not telling me anything I don't know.
Multiplication is multiplication.

Unless there's something magical about Shadow Partner that I don't understand, it adds 50% of your total damage; that makes it a 1.5 multiplier.
A Hero's total damage would already include ACA, Enrage, and Chance Attack, so you would just multiply the total damage by 1.5.
Again, a Paladin's charges would act the same exact way except the multiplier is 1.495 (or .5% less than that of Shadow Partner).

That said, I don't even see where you included Shadow Partner in your calculations for a Shadow Hero.
I see:
"Shadower Hero: 210% (Intrepid Slash) * 3 (# of hits) * 3 (I have no idea what this is) * 2 (ACA) * 1.6 (Enrage) * 1.25 (Chance Attack) * 1.0175 (critical multiplier) / 0.84 (speed) = 9157.5%"

50% * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25 = 2
Shadow Partner does 200% of your damage. Therefore, 3x more damage.

I forgot Combat Orders, but Paladins don't get 20% Critical Minimum from anywhere.


50% * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25 = 2
Shadow Partner does 200% of your damage. Therefore, 3x more damage.

Question: Adv Combo and Enrage, are they 2x and 1.6x, or +100% and +60%? If they're +100% and +60%, wouldn't they add to SP instead of multiplying? PyPQ buffs were additive, right?, and I'm pretty sure they added to SP.

I forgot Combat Orders, but Paladins don't get 20% Critical Minimum from anywhere.

Wrong.

Blast has a 50% critical chance and also has an innate minimum critical damage increase of 20% at level 30.

Wrong.

Blast has a 50% critical chance and also has an innate minimum critical damage increase of 20% at level 30.

lolwut? When did this get added into the game, because I don't see it in the skill description?

MP 24; attack 3 times for 280% damage, ignore 20% defense, add 50% critical chance, and a 10% chance of instant death

Also Joe's talking about inherit base crit, I believe.

I forgot Combat Orders, but Paladins don't get 20% Critical Minimum from anywhere.

Actually, they sure as pineapple do.
I know my class, thank you.

You're wrong.

50% * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25 = 2
Shadow Partner does 200% of your damage. Therefore, 3x more damage.

*sigh*

>Shadower Hero: 210% * 3 * 3 * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25 * 1.0175 / 0.84 = 9157.5%
>Shadower Hero: (210% * 3) * (3) * (2 * 1.6 * 1.25) * (1.0175) / (0.84)
>Shadower Hero: (Intrepid Slash) * ("Shadow Partner") * (Buffs) * (Crit) / (Speed)

>>("Shadow Partner")
>>(3)
>>(1 + 2)
>>(1 + (.5 * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25))
>>(1 + (.5 * (Buffs))

>Shadower Hero: (Intrepid Slash) * (1 + (.5 * (Buffs)) * (Buffs) * (Crit) / (Speed)

Congratulations! You just counted the buffs twice!

Meanwhile, back in reality, the actual formula you're looking for is this:
>Shadow Hero: (Character Damage) + (Shadow Partner)
>Shadow Hero: (Character Damage) + ((Character Damage) * .5)
>Shadow Hero: (Character Damage) + (Character Damage) * .5
>Shadow Hero: 1(Character Damage) + .5(Character Damage)
>Shadow Hero: 1.5(Character damage)

>>(Character Damage)
>>(Intrepid Slash) * (Buffs) * (Crit) / (Speed)
>>(2.10 * 3) * (2 * 1.6 * 1.25) * (1.0175) / (0.84)

>Shadow Hero: (2.10 * 3) * (2 * 1.6 * 1.25) * (1.0175) / (0.84) * 1.5
>Shadow Hero: (2.10)(1.0175) * 3 * (2 * 1.6 * 1.25) / (0.84) * 1.5
>Shadow Hero: 2.136 * 3 * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25 / .84 * 1.5
Take out the speed...
>Shadow Hero: 2.136 * 3 * 2 * 1.6 * 1.25 * 1.5

OMpineappleingG! THAT LOOKS FAMILIAR!
I can't believe I just had to teach someone pineappleing math.

lolwut? When did this get added into the game, because I don't see it in the skill description?

The Paladin community is making me sad.
I thought you were being sarcastic about bortbort, but apparently not.
On that subject, the dude said that STR gives extra HP. That's just the one that comes to mind.

Question: Adv Combo and Enrage, are they 2x and 1.6x, or +100% and +60%? If they're +100% and +60%, wouldn't they add to SP instead of multiplying? PyPQ buffs were additive, right?, and I'm pretty sure they added to SP.

They're multipliers.
Pretty much everything post-Big Bang is multiplicative.

Now, PyPQ buffs may have worked differently, but I never paid attention since they shouldn't affect anything outside the PQ.

Wrong.

Blast has a 50% critical chance and also has an innate minimum critical damage increase of 20% at level 30.

You get a cookie.
Seriously, this post has made me happy.

I came to Southperry originally thinking that people would be more concerned with getting correct information out there than they are about their egos.
If you think something someone says is wrong, check it, verify it, then tell them it's wrong.
If it's not wrong, be adult enough to say "Oh, I see. My bad, man."

I've already told you how Shadow Partner works. I don't understand why you keep trying to disagree with me. All those buffs combined make Shadow Partner do 200% damage because it in fact does count those buffs twice.

And yes, it's a big fucking difference you get 1.05x higher damage than I calculated, that totally makes up for the 2000%/s difference between the two jobs.

I've already told you how Shadow Partner works. I don't understand why you keep trying to disagree with me. All those buffs combined make Shadow Partner do 200% damage because it in fact does count those buffs twice.

And yes, it's a big pineappleing difference you get 1.05x higher damage than I calculated, that totally makes up for the 2000%/s difference between the two jobs.

That's funny, because I don't recall you once saying that Shadow Partner counts the buffs twice.
You just kept saying that "Shadow Partner gets multiplied by multipliers".
Again, no pomegranate.

I'm not trying to disagree with you; I'm trying to understand what exactly it is you're saying.
There's no thread that I've found that explains the nuances of Shadow Partner, so all I have to go on is Dusk's thread that simply says: "Notes: Deals damage based on a multiplier of your total damage."

So if you want someone to understand something, you may want to try actually explaining it.
Believe me, I'm listening. However, if someone doesn't understand something, repeating yourself near verbatim isn't gonna help.

All you had to do was show me a complete formula or point me somewhere that explains how Shadow Partner works.

As for Blast's additional minimum critical, wrong is wrong.
Seriously, can't you just say "oh, I didn't know that" instead of trying to justify it with "it doesn't make a difference"?

Meanwhile, I still have no clue how you arrived at the multiplier you did.
Even not counting the minimum critical, it'd be:
(1.5 + 1.2) / 2 = 1.35
1.35 * .57 + 1 * .43 = 1.1995

I have no honest idea how you'd get 1.182.

Shadow Partner gets multiplied by multipliers is an exact description of what it it is I was stating. I even showed the math for it, and you even quote the skill description stating what it does. Shadow Partner deals damage based on a multiplier of your total damage. Shadow Partner deals 200% damage after these buffs. Therefore, Shadow Partner deals 200% damage of your total damage. It's rather straight forward and someone else in the thread even explained in more detail how it works.


And yes, I was wrong about Blast's passive minimum critical damage, I think that's rather obvious at this point.

So... The ultimate rebirth is a level 200 Hero into a Shadower?

Shadow Partner gets multiplied by multipliers is an exact description of what it it is I was stating. I even showed the math for it, and you even quote the skill description stating what it does. Shadow Partner deals damage based on a multiplier of your total damage. Shadow Partner deals 200% damage after these buffs. Therefore, Shadow Partner deals 200% damage of your total damage. It's rather straight forward and someone else in the thread even explained in more detail how it works.


And yes, I was wrong about Blast's passive minimum critical damage, I think that's rather obvious at this point.

The skill description says that it does damage based on a multiplier of your total damage. It never says anything about Shadow Partner being multiplied by multipliers.
The meaning of "total damage" is obvious, and one would assume the "multiplier" is simply the 50% damage in the skill table. There are absolutely no lines to read in between that might make someone conclude that it also remultiplies buffs.

You showed math for it, but it was out of context, leading to the entire problem.
My formula also included .5 * 2 * 1.64 * 1.25 which would satisfy the condition that "Shadow Partner gets multiplied by multipliers."

It's illogical that a buff would get counted twice in one attack, so, no, it's not very straight-forward.
In fact, I'd imagine that it either took a bit of testing or directly looking at the .wz files to come to that conclusion.

And if I missed the explanation it was due to not having read the entire thread.
Once again, pointing me in that direction in the first place would have helped far more than your rather poor explanation.

So... The ultimate rebirth is a level 200 Hero into a Shadower?

Shadower into Hero actually I believe.

That's funny, because I don't recall you once saying that Shadow Partner counts the buffs twice.
You just kept saying that "Shadow Partner gets multiplied by multipliers".
Again, no pomegranate.

I'm not trying to disagree with you; I'm trying to understand what exactly it is you're saying.
There's no thread that I've found that explains the nuances of Shadow Partner, so all I have to go on is Dusk's thread that simply says: "Notes: Deals damage based on a multiplier of your total damage."

So if you want someone to understand something, you may want to try actually explaining it.
Believe me, I'm listening. However, if someone doesn't understand something, repeating yourself near verbatim isn't gonna help.

All you had to do was show me a complete formula or point me somewhere that explains how Shadow Partner works.

As for Blast's additional minimum critical, wrong is wrong.
Seriously, can't you just say "oh, I didn't know that" instead of trying to justify it with "it doesn't make a difference"?

Meanwhile, I still have no clue how you arrived at the multiplier you did.
Even not counting the minimum critical, it'd be:
(1.5 + 1.2) / 2 = 1.35
1.35 * .57 + 1 * .43 = 1.1995

I have no honest idea how you'd get 1.182.

Actually, the way shadow partner works, it'll make this:

Damage from total -> 50%. That 50% x200% will become 100%, making Shadow partner effectively hit the same as you do.

There's proof ingame right now, too. With advanced star mastery, avenger gets an increase of 25% damage, right? Well, the shadow partner hits with avenger turn out to be... 62.5% out of your total damage, already increased by that 25%.

That means you hit 125% from the total, plus a 62.5% from shadow partner OFF THAT 125%, adding to a total of 203.125, out of the normal 150% it'd be. Only on avenger, Drain, and the skills it affects.

With the x2 damage thing, what's going on is that you effectively hit 200% out of the normal attacks, only to make that become 100%
out of that on your SP. That means you hit 200%, your shadow partner hits 200% too... Making it a total of 400% out of the original 150% with shadow partner... In fact, adding that to avenger makes Shadow partner hit MORE than you. Now add more buffs as needed, to make shadow partner hit more than you everywhere.

So... The ultimate rebirth is a level 200 Hero into a Shadower?

It'd actually have to be Shadow -> Hero.
Also, you would only need to go all the way to 200 if you wanted the extra HP/MP.
Assassinate, Maple Warrior, Taunt, Ninja Ambush, Smokescreen, and Boomerang Step are the only 4th Job skills that would carry over.

But, yes, that would be the biggest bang for your buck.

Shadower into Hero actually I believe.

It'd actually have to be Shadow -> Hero.

That means Dero should rebirth into a warrior. He should also test the whole adding AP into HP/MP thing. If this goes live and spreads people will want to get as much extra HP/MP as possible.

The Paladin community is making me sad.
I thought you were being sarcastic about bortbort, but apparently not.
On that subject, the dude said that STR gives extra HP. That's just the one that comes to mind.

Sorry that I don't "Elitist Jerks" a VIDEO GAME like MapleStory? If I wanted to do math, I'd take a math course.
I mean I'm all for "Number Crunching" and all, but for this game, I just can't come to cope with it.
Also I've had Bob on my BL for years now and I'm still confused on his choice of words lol

EDIT: Ninja edit

Actually, the way shadow partner works, it'll make this:

Damage from total -> 50%. That 50% x200% will become 100%, making Shadow partner effectively hit the same as you do.

There's proof ingame right now, too. With advanced star mastery, avenger gets an increase of 25% damage, right? Well, the shadow partner hits with avenger turn out to be... 62.5% out of your total damage, already increased by that 25%.

That means you hit 125% from the total, plus a 62.5% from shadow partner OFF THAT 125%, adding to a total of 203.125, out of the normal 150% it'd be. Only on avenger, Drain, and the skills it affects.

With the x2 damage thing, what's going on is that you effectively hit 200% out of the normal attacks, only to make that become 100%
out of that on your SP. That means you hit 200%, your shadow partner hits 200% too... Making it a total of 400% out of the original 150% with shadow partner... In fact, adding that to avenger makes Shadow partner hit MORE than you. Now add more buffs as needed, to make shadow partner hit more than you everywhere.

Thank you!
I think I got it now. Thanks, I mean it.

I guess it makes sense from the perspective that it balances out their damage (although in a rather complicated way).
Goes to show you, though, that the game wasn't designed with rebirthing in mind since their numbers only accounted for a single buff.

Sorry that I don't "Elitist Jerks" a VIDEO GAME like MapleStory? If I wanted to do math, I'd take a math course.
I mean I'm all for "Number Crunching" and all, but for this game, I just can't come to cope with it.
Also I've had Bob on my BL for years now and I'm still confused on his choice of words lol

EDIT: Ninja edit

Knowing whether or not Blast adds minimum critical damage has absolutely nothing to do with doing math.
I also fail to see how I'm being an "elitist jerk". Jerk, yeah, probably. Elitist? No.
If I thought I were special, I wouldn't have expected you to know that about Blast.

Your first sentence is quite ironic though.
I guess it's harder to be a class elitist when everyone and their mother is making one. Then again, I've seen people figure out how to do it.
And pointing out that Maplestory is a video game doesn't change the fact that most everyone on this forum devotes an enormous amount of time towards it in one way or another.

As for Bob, I used to be a big fan, but that was before I started taking occasional peaks into Nexon's forums.

Derp; not worth arguing...