"Tiger" Parenting.

Eh, what I don't get is how the connection is made between 'right' and what the parents advocate. Let's take one of the two most common examples. Piano. For the other most common one, making a child do well at math is probably beneficial because science often requires it, and scientists are in demand, so it would make sense if they want their child to have a job. But piano? It's nice to listen to and all, but if you strip away all the happiness by beating the child into performing, then there's practically nothing left. Last I recall I don't think there was significant demand for piano players, so apart from the prestige maybe... how is this 'right'?

Again, you're thinking in an asian mindset. Therein lies the problem. It doesn't MATTER what your parents want. If you want to be a Pianist, should you not be allowed to pursue that? What is the point of your life if not to chase your dream to the bitter end? A parent's job would be to inform you that Scientists are in higher demand and that it will be easier to get a job that way, however they should also support you fully in the pursuit of your dream.

You may be content to go into a mediocre lifestyle with a job you don't want, going to bed and waking up every morning worrying about job security. Checking the bills and worrying over whether they can be paid. Going to a job you don't want and resent it the entire time. Go home and kick off your shoes to try to enjoy yourself, well guess what, no time for that. You've got kids to feed so you begin cooking. Then you go do some other things that need doing but I guarantee they're not at the top of your list of a good time. So you see, you struggle all through school, only to struggle through life. I realize that this has become almost necessary in the world we live in, but that is the true problem.

If you had worked hard and become an accomplished Pianist, you may have the same exact day, except for one part. You like your job, perhaps even love it. It gives you a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment. Maybe you don't have as much for your child's super expensive university fund. But you'll be a happier person, and a better person for it. Hell, you'll even be a better parent. Let the people who have a true interest in science explore the sciences. Life is now the pursuit of money, that's pathetic. It should be the pursuit of happiness. Money is not happiness. Follow your dreams.

I'm not going to look at the details of what you wrote, since I've seen them before. Instead...

Many of you are overgeneralising, with a good number of assumptions. Bringing happiness into the equation makes things even more shaky, because you don't know if they are happy or not, and you don't say whether they are happy or not - they feel for themselves. Yes we know the "pop them the right question and they'll wonder if they are truely happy" but in the societal context, not necessarily so. Would your examples apply to everyone, or just the people in your society? In my society? Yes and no, because [people in my country] are at the interface, though starting to lean on the Western side, but we're still very Asian.

So... are you trying to prove which mindset is correct and/or wrong? Is freedom of choices really always better than a moderate form of "tiger parenting" (I say that because I, as mentioned earlier, do not partake with the more extreme sides of that).

Oh by the way, I realised that "strict parenting" is so subjective.

Hadriel

80% Of the things you learn at school when you're 4~10, you have forgotten at the time you're 15.

This statistic is 100% made up.

You retain like everything from those years for the sheer reason of their being the basis for all scholastic knowledge thereafter. I'm not going to turn 25 and forget how to multiply, that's retarded.

Again, you're thinking in an asian mindset. Therein lies the problem. It doesn't MATTER what your parents want. If you want to be a Pianist, should you not be allowed to pursue that? What is the point of your life if not to chase your dream to the bitter end? A parent's job would be to inform you that Scientists are in higher demand and that it will be easier to get a job that way, however they should also support you fully in the pursuit of your dream.

You may be content to go into a mediocre lifestyle with a job you don't want, going to bed and waking up every morning worrying about job security. Checking the bills and worrying over whether they can be paid. Going to a job you don't want and resent it the entire time. Go home and kick off your shoes to try to enjoy yourself, well guess what, no time for that. You've got kids to feed so you begin cooking. Then you go do some other things that need doing but I guarantee they're not at the top of your list of a good time. So you see, you struggle all through school, only to struggle through life. I realize that this has become almost necessary in the world we live in, but that is the true problem.

If you had worked hard and become an accomplished Pianist, you may have the same exact day, except for one part. You like your job, perhaps even love it. It gives you a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment. Maybe you don't have as much for your child's super expensive university fund. But you'll be a happier person, and a better person for it. Hell, you'll even be a better parent. Let the people who have a true interest in science explore the sciences. Life is now the pursuit of money, that's pathetic. It should be the pursuit of happiness. Money is not happiness. Follow your dreams.

Erm, I guess my post was kinda vague. I meant to say, assume that a child has no interest in either science or piano. His family tiger parents him into becoming a pianist, believing it to be 'right'. But then, they aren't exactly correct, are they? Logically, given the previous scientist example, wouldn't math be a better decision to make their children go for? In terms of career prospects, and the creative aspect of the pianist career that they're denying him by tiger parenting his music. I guess the point I was trying to make was that despite frequent assertions by such parents that they are making correct decisions, they don't always end up pushing their children in the right direction.

Meh, I gotta be clearer...

I have to say, though, that the society also has a fairly huge hand in culling the dream job opportunity. But then, it wouldn't fit in this thread 'cause it's about tiger parenting, not tiger societal norms.

This statistic is 100% made up.

You retain like everything from those years for the sheer reason of their being the basis for all scholastic knowledge thereafter. I'm not going to turn 25 and forget how to multiply, that's retarded.

Maybe that 80% includes all the useless/less applicable formulae you had to remember in math class, or the multitudes of random dates (birth, death, war, etc), names and figures in history? Maybe the exact locations of various types of specialized processes in Geography? I think the statistic counts the numerous details, not the vital concepts.

I'll make a crucial point here: the parents won't know what the child's calling is until a long time later. So whatever they do may or may not be "right" - it's like a shot in the dark, or maybe a shot-gun approach for many of the more extreme cases I've heard.

And... the child is affected by two key factors: Nature and Nurture. Everything the parents do will affect the child, but nobody knows what happens until the child is sufficiently grown up and interacts with society. I'm sure many parents know about this, so for parents in my society it's tough for them to decide [how to bring up the child].

Hadriel

Maybe that 80% includes all the useless/less applicable formulae you had to remember in math class, or the multitudes of random dates (birth, death, war, etc), names and figures in history? Maybe the exact locations of various types of specialized processes in Geography? I think the statistic counts the numerous details, not the vital concepts.

yeah man, them 6 year olds be crammin them formulae. not 8x4 or anything. and details are a tool to understand concepts, especially in math and science also lol at studying topographical processes in middleschool. With the exception of major global or national landmarks, that is unheard of. Long story short, devil clearly made up a stat, why are you trying to defend it?

are at the interface, though starting to lean on the Western side, but we're still very Asian.

So... are you trying to prove which mindset is correct and/or wrong? Is freedom of choices really always better than a moderate form of "tiger parenting" (I say that because I, as mentioned earlier, do not partake with the more extreme sides of that).

Oh by the way, I realised that "strict parenting" is so subjective.

Hadriel

Got to be honest, I love how you attacked this reply, while I don't agree with you, you definitely have put a lot of thought into the subject. However, I'm going to start by asking you if you have a basis for comparison. Living in Canada, I see all kinds. Sheltered kids, Tiger-parented kids, I knew 2 kids who were getting close to the extreme side of tiger parenting, though not there. Then there were kids like me, who were supported through thick and thin.

 Spoiler

Don't get me wrong, when my grades dropped off from 90+'s across the board by roughly 10% through the last 4 years of school my parents were less than pleased, but I didn't suffer for it in the slightest

The kids who were tiger-parented, especially the 2 that were done to extremes ended up with rotten senses of humor, they almost lacked the ability to have sporadic fun. As if it had to be time-tabled. Rules and guidelines were like shackles that held them fast to a way of life that quickly is becoming obsolete. I feel bad for them, they could be so much more. The sheltered kids, the ones who Mommy and Daddy cradled to sleep until they were 12 came out slightly socially awkward. Naive and accepting of everything, and believing that people were good natured by heart and that everyone wanted to be friends deep down. I feel bad for them too, as one day reality is going to kick them in the ass and they'll be left standing in the cold wondering what went wrong. Me? I might be slightly socially awkward, it's not for me to say. That said, I do have a good sense of humor, I'm happy for the most part, I am currently chasing my dream as all young people should and I know that deep down inside the world is a cruel place, which has made me tough enough to take it. So yea, maybe in your society they aren't unhappy, but when they've got little to compare it to, it changes things. I've seen proof of that, which goes beyond my opinion. I guess what I'm getting at is that I enjoy the freedom that my parents have given me, and I'd very much like for everyone to enjoy that freedom. A bit of structure is okay, but you gotta be willing to draw the line, most asian parents draw the line about 12 YEARS too late.

Erm, I guess my post was kinda vague. I meant to say, assume that a child has no interest in either science or piano. His family tiger parents him into becoming a pianist, believing it to be 'right'. But then, they aren't exactly correct, are they? Logically, given the previous scientist example, wouldn't math be a better decision to make their children go for? In terms of career prospects, and the creative aspect of the pianist career that they're denying him by tiger parenting his music. I guess the point I was trying to make was that despite frequent assertions by such parents that they are making correct decisions, they don't always end up pushing their children in the right direction.

Meh, I gotta be clearer...

I have to say, though, that the society also has a fairly huge hand in culling the dream job opportunity. But then, it wouldn't fit in this thread 'cause it's about tiger parenting, not tiger societal norms.

However that's NOT something a tiger-parent would do, because you were right the first time in that tiger-parenting would drive the kid into the sciences. Very little money in music. However you assume that we need to work towards a goal our entire lives. How about letting the kid be a kid, let him/her build dreams and aspirations from the culmination of his/her experiences. In the end, that's all we really are, the culmination of our lives experiences. That IS individuality. Trust me, once a kid finds something to work towards, something they REALLY want, if their parents support them they will go through hell and back to obtain it. THAT is the life I'd wish for all people. Being so self-motivated that they will endlessly push, even their entire life if necessary, to realize it.

I'll make a crucial point here: the parents won't know what the child's calling is until a long time later. So whatever they do may or may not be "right" - it's like a shot in the dark, or maybe a shot-gun approach for many of the more extreme cases I've heard.

And... the child is affected by two key factors: Nature and Nurture. Everything the parents do will affect the child, but nobody knows what happens until the child is sufficiently grown up and interacts with society. I'm sure many parents know about this, so for parents in my society it's tough for them to decide [how to bring up the child].

Hadriel

Kind of responded above. However. You still assume that your parents mean pomegranate all. They do NOT. I cannot stress that enough. The child is plenty capable, given some time, to choose their own calling. In essence, most asian parents have to drop a bit of the responsibility off their shoulders or stop caring about their families petty "honor" for 5 seconds, whichever is the problem in a case by case basis and allow a bit more Nature into the mix, as nurture alone is a proven bad formula. It seems like you put a lot of faith in elders and very little in children. Trust me, we would not have survived as a race if our children(not infants, children) were helpless, and adults are not the all-knowing beings that they sometimes seem to believe they are. Someday when you are a parent, Hadriel, I DARE you to trust in your child. To put faith in them from a young age, to do the right thing, to make their own mistakes and learn by them, but most of all give them the chance to choose their own path. I think you'll find there is a lot of pride to be had, knowing that your DNA, your child, chose a good path for themselves all BY themselves.

The thing is, I don't understand why you're daring me. I'm kind of putting my PoV against yours (which would obviously conflict) while sharing a more balanced Asian perspective while being neutral. The "attack" wasn't totally meant for you - some of it is, but at least half of it is meant for everyone. I am stating that the traditional Asian belief is one that prefers to take control of the child [by lots of education and upbringing, in every sense], which is not necessarily my belief. I don't intend to tell my child what he/she must do (that's if I get married and have a child!). As I mentioned, I am for strict parenting, but what does strict parenting mean? To me, strict parenting is not telling my child "you must study piano" or "get all As or else". It is more on behaviour. You probably still won't agree with me, but that's fine because we're not from the same places [and everything that it entails].

So I'm going to resolve this now. Tykian you believe that the parents should put all their faith in their child(ren) and let them grow up by themselves with minimal interference. The traditional Asian viewpoint is to educate and inculcate (and hence this thread on "Tiger" Parenting). The modern Asian culture is much more moderate than you think, but in many parts of China it's still very traditional. And again, modern Asian parents, having both cultural roots and Western influence and education (unbelivably important), are trying to find that middle ground. You are not wrong, but neither are you totally right; more accurately speaking, there is no right or wrong here.

Nature and Nurture. Each is important, but depends on the context too.

*edit* I missed out a part. You asked me what basis I speak on - Look at my flag; then look at where I am now. Canada may be quite a bit bigger so if you travel a fair bit you would have seen plenty, but I do have a significant exposure to all sides of the argument. *edit*

Hadriel
[again I repeat that I am neutral and am trying make things balanced here - that's me]

However that's NOT something a tiger-parent would do, because you were right the first time in that tiger-parenting would drive the kid into the sciences. Very little money in music. However you assume that we need to work towards a goal our entire lives. How about letting the kid be a kid, let him/her build dreams and aspirations from the culmination of his/her experiences. In the end, that's all we really are, the culmination of our lives experiences. That IS individuality. Trust me, once a kid finds something to work towards, something they REALLY want, if their parents support them they will go through hell and back to obtain it. THAT is the life I'd wish for all people. Being so self-motivated that they will endlessly push, even their entire life if necessary, to realize it.

I think what he meant is that why tiger parents drive kids into piano when the child might not like piano nor any other musical instrument and even with all the teaching, pratice and all the other stuff the kid is not going to be able to live on piano since he's not good at it and also doesn't like it, like what hadriel said most of the time parenting is shooting in the dark but (IMHO) forcing them into piano is like a sniper shot in the dark while math is something between a shotgun and a rocket launcher since its the base for about half of the careers out there, I think that if you want to push your kid to do something besides math (as an example), at least let them choose.

[...] (IMHO) forcing them into piano is like a sniper shot in the dark [...]

Nice one, though piano is really quite common. More generally speaking, many parents like to get their child(ren) to learn [classical] music because it... err... makes for a good balance and tends to have positive influences/effects/whatever on the child. But of course I know many parents who do so for competitive reasons, on top of "honour" [quoting] and/or wanting the best for the child [extreme].

[...] while math is something between a shotgun and a rocket launcher since its the base for about half of the careers out there [...]

Hahah nice one too! Though I was thinking... you'd need to aim the rocket too, don't you? Unless you want to go nuclear on the spot (if the target ain't too far away)... =P

Making another point here that makes for more contention: Can you do art properly without creativity? [Now obviously you all know the context that I'm making this point on, so let's keep it confined.] So... art lessons? But with this point, the important thing to ask is: is creativity (necessarily) compromised?

Hadriel

Nice one, though piano is really quite common. More generally speaking, many parents like to get their child(ren) to learn [classical] music because it... err... makes for a good balance and tends to have positive influences/effects/whatever on the child. But of course I know many parents who do so for competitive reasons, on top of "honour" [quoting] and/or wanting the best for the child [extreme].

Hahah nice one too! Though I was thinking... you'd need to aim the rocket too, don't you? Unless you want to go nuclear on the spot (if the target ain't too far away)... =P

Making another point here that makes for more contention: Can you do art properly without creativity? [Now obviously you all know the context that I'm making this point on, so let's keep it confined.] So... art lessons? But with this point, the important thing to ask is: is creativity (necessarily) compromised?

Hadriel

Of course you have to aim but math is like one of the three (I think) main roots of what we can do, other being social and creativity with math (supposely) being logic.

And though I agree that music has positive influences/effects/whatever on the child that doesn't mean that they have to force the child into it, they could watch a movie, read a book (preferable fiction), paint, write and other stuff and almost have the same effect.

Rick, I have read excerpts of her book, and I suggest you re-think about your stance about how she parents. Apparently you're taking this way too seriously. Too serious to the fact you're making extreme statements. If you didn't notice (and I'm highly guessing you haven't), Amy Chua's book also reeks of satire, and she even mentioned at one point that she has self-ridiculed her ways of parenting in her book. In fact, she also explores the clashes of two cultures, and the profound effects it had on her parenting.

And even though I do have reservations in certain points she makes in her parenting, I do understand her approach about why she decided to be a "Tiger Mom". Despite the "extremes" people have screamed criticism at, I believe it works simply because I believe parenting needs to involve lots of discipline (not to the extreme, though) and taking other active approaches to parenting.

Making fun of her actions and culture clashes are completely irrelevant. The only relevant thing is the actions she has taken against those children, and those actions are cruel. Why do you disagree?

Making fun of her actions and culture clashes are completely irrelevant. The only relevant thing is the actions she has taken against those children, and those actions are cruel. Why do you disagree?

Again, I would suggest reading the entire book. I have a feeling you do not see why she took this approach from her point of view. You're just like one of the many critics who are slamming her "extremes" of parenting and not looking at the entire picture of her approach.

And you're focusing on one part of the book. I do know for the fact that she has mentioned that she has taken an less of a "strict" approach to parenting later due to certain experiences later down the line, which she does mention in the memoirs. Yet she still includes disciplines in her parenting. Guess you didn't read that, did you?

You're still taking this way too seriously. Seems like you don't get her satirical part of her memoirs, do you?

Once more, reasons do NOT matter in this case. The end does not justify the means. Concern for the mental safety of children is not taking something too seriously. Now explain yourself rather than posting "you're wrong".

Once more, reasons do NOT matter in this case. The end does not justify the means. Concern for the mental safety of children is not taking something too seriously. Now explain yourself rather than posting "you're wrong".

Seems like you don't know about that type of parenting eh? What she did was NOT extreme. If I thought it was extreme, I would have noticed immediately. Nothing she mentions have raised red flags in my mind. In fact, I found it perfectly OK, although with some reservations. I have looked at other aspects of the book and it does tell a lot about why she took that approach to parenting, including the background to it. And she has also mentioned in the memoir that she took a less "strict" approach to parenting once her children got a bit older. Its a complete contrast to what she mentions in the "extreme" parenting portion of the memoir you're now bashing away at.

And if you're just basing your argument from the WSJ article "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior" by Amy Chua, boy I feel sorry for you. Really, I do. You need to shred off that bias you have. Narrow-minded approach isn't going to get you anywhere.

Stop with your substance-less posts. All you have done is say "I disagree". You keep saying you see why she did it, so tell us why you think she did it, and why you think she is justified.

Stop with your substance-less posts. You keep saying you see why she did it, so tell us why you think she did it.

Lol, I don't need to explain further. This is where you need to find out yourself. I understood her reasoning. Go and take the time to read the book. And even if I explain her approach, you're still going to be the guy that has very biased views. Nothing will ever change. You will never change. If that truth hurts, sorry. Don't want to beat an already dead horse

How do you suggest I find out your personal thoughts without asking you? I really hope one of your extra-curriculars wasn't the debate team. Furthermore, Amy Chua is not the main focus here. Tiger Parents are, and we both know there are far more vicious ones than her. She just wrote a book about it.

Keep things civil here please.

And don't turn this into a "XXX did wrong here, so XXX is wrong. Nothing else matters." issue. The whole right/wrong perspectives/blahblah issues all over again.

Hadriel