top 10 jobs after chaos?

Because her summons don't do enough damage to be fatal. Defending your argument that iframes are not useful due to less DPS with the word "everyone" doesn't matter because "everyone" is not a word you use in reference to a level 190 end game boss. The empress herself has several attacks that are entirely fatal including her fire birds that do 22k damage. Watching the video, this DB clearly doesn't have that much and spamming vampire would not save him from taking that damage. Invincibility frames however, would. (by the way, the chain in chains of hell has invincibility frames and a cast time less than or equal to phantom blow. A well timed one aimed AWAY from her could very easily avoid said fire birds while returning to your DPS with very little impact over time.)

You were trying to prove that people solo empress/von leon. Just because one does doesn't mean the vast majority will/can. You also destroyed your argument for CoH's need since in your example he obviously didn't need it. The use of the word "everyone" wasn't in defence of anything it was proving your statement useless since the 2 bosses you gave as examples are not two bosses that are usually solo'd. Ok so basically what you're telling me and other db's to do is wait for monster attack animations and use CoH to avoid the damage right? I think you need to get on a DB and show us just how easy it is to avoid constant attacks with the use of CoH. Really I would love for you to show me so I can learn. What i'm saying is you can dodge one attack but the follow up WILL hit you when you're invincibility frames are not able to be used.

@ above : we're not being hostile D: just discussion x-x

YOU'VE ALL BEEN NINJA'D!

+1 good sir.

You were trying to prove that people solo empress/von leon.

No, YOU were trying to prove that no one solos those bosses. I provided evidence of the contrary.

Just because one does doesn't mean the vast majority will/can.

Show me where i said this was the case. In fact i remember saying that "everyone" is not a word to use for end game bosses, implying that the majority does in fact have nothing to do with it. You're regurgitating my arguments at this point.

You also destroyed your argument for CoH's need since in your example he obviously didn't need it.

No i didn't. I literally just explained to you why CoH wasn't used and where it would be used. Not needing it in the only part of the fight displayed doesn't mean it wouldn't be used at all. It would help if you would read what you're quoting before coming up with a response.

The use of the word "everyone" wasn't in defense* of anything it was proving your statement useless since the 2 bosses you gave as examples are not two bosses that are usually solo'd.

Correct me if i am wrong, but wouldn't "proving my statement useless" be defending yourself? I'm defending myself. No need to be afraid of doing so.

And Von Leon is very often solo'd. I gave you a very VERY good reason why people do so on the last page.

Ok so basically what you're telling me and other db's to do is wait for monster attack animations and use CoH to avoid the damage right? I think you need to get on a DB and show us just how easy it is to avoid constant attacks with the use of CoH.

There have been videos of DB's using the first attack of CoH to avoid RGTS's attacks pre-BB. 99% sure it was Cyanne, who quit afaik. Search results for said video are inconclusive, but i know for a fact that it is doable, and if i had a DB i would very easily show you that you are, as you have been from the start, WRONG.

Really I would love for you to show me so I can learn. What i'm saying is you can dodge one attack but the follow up WILL hit you when you're invincibility frames are not able to be used.

I didn't say invincibility frames would keep you 100% untouched. I said invincibility frames would AID in you not dying. There is a difference, and if you're unable to comprehend the applications of the very valuable skill of staying alive in pot cooldown, then i believe my involvement in this thread is over.

We didn't go from 1 to an entire squad. This discussion has always been about db in general. Meaning you can't take the accomplishment of one elitist, we're talking average db's. If you would like we can talk elitists and then you guys have even less of an arguement.. Elitist will be so hp washed that invincibility frames will be laughed at and damage spam will be even more of the way to go. My argument before was that if they needed CoH invincibility they shouldn't be at that specific boss, they should just wait until they can take whatever the boss has to dish out and give their maximum damage output. That is what everyone usually is looking for at boss runs.. Can you imagine taking an NL to a boss run appling him only for him to use drain because it saves him pots/reducing his chances of dying?

i'm pointing out that you are fixated on the video when the concept is important.

No, YOU were trying to prove that no one solos those bosses. I provided evidence of the contrary.

to be quite honest I didn't even know you were talking about soloing bosses until you recently stated so. I just took it and said whatever. You brought up the 2 bosses as a means of proving to me that the invincibility frames were useful then when you said solo is when I said yeah because everyone solo's those two bosses.. then you gave a video as if soloing von leon, and empress is some sort of common event.

Show me where i said this was the case. In fact i remember saying that "everyone" is not a word to use for end game bosses, implying that the majority does in fact have nothing to do with it. You're regurgitating my arguments at this point.

I understand you stated that but you brought up end game bosses not me, I was speaking in general which would mean things that are common. But no my point would remain if you're fighting an end game boss you're not worried about getting this or that invincibility frame, you're trying to dish out your maximum damage so you can kill the damn thing. When you see NL's using Drain at end game bosses let me know, When you see shadowers using Chakra at end game bosses let me know, the list goes on and on.

No i didn't. I literally just explained to you why CoH wasn't used and where it would be used. Not needing it in the only part of the fight displayed doesn't mean it wouldn't be used at all. It would help if you would read what you're quoting before coming up with a response.

I know where it CAN be used, my point in all this is that where it CAN be used isn't a necessity and you're better off just maxing out your dps. CoH isn't saving anyone from death end of story. I am reading you're just dragging an argument on when there's no further point to it. I guarantee CoH will be used as much as L7 is by nightlords once chaos comes around.

Correct me if i am wrong, but wouldn't "proving my statement useless" be defending yourself? I'm defending myself. No need to be afraid of doing so.

And Von Leon is very often solo'd. I gave you a very VERY good reason why people do so on the last page.

No, proving a statement wrong isn't defending myself it's simply proving what you're saying as false, it doesn't have to benefit my argument. I'm not afraid but feel free to stroke it whichever way you like. Von Leon often solo'd? lols ok. Your reasoning wasn't very good so you might want to try again.

There have been videos of DB's using the first attack of CoH to avoid RGTS's attacks pre-BB. 99% sure it was Cyanne, who quit afaik. Search results for said video are inconclusive, but i know for a fact that it is doable, and if i had a DB i would very easily show you that you are, as you have been from the start, WRONG.

PRE-BB DUDE, WE'RE TALKING AFTER CHAOS. Also I already know what it's like doing that I solo'd RGS back then many many times. RGS is easy to do so but the combo will not suffice for all monsters, try doing so on anego continuously. Eventually the attack of the monster catches up with your frames and you WILL get hit. No you think you're right because you have no hands on experience, when you get some thn we can continue this discussion, for now it's 4 am and i'm heading to bed.

I didn't say invincibility frames would keep you 100% untouched. I said invincibility frames would AID in you not dying. There is a difference, and if you're unable to comprehend the applications of the very valuable skill of staying alive in pot cooldown, then i believe my involvement in this thread is over.

No pomegranate they aid in you not dying but if you didnt die from the damn attack you eventually got hit with what is the whole point of using them? To SAVE POTS, which ISNT the objective in bossing.. The objective in bossing is getting your maximum dmg output while not dying! Also CoH will not make such a drastic difference in pot cool-down situations, I suggest you get some hands on experience with oen before speaking out on it. This isn't buccaneer invincibility frames we're talking about here (not because you are one but because they have some really nice invincibility frame work).

Anyways goodnight takebacker. Reply's are in bold.

i'm pointing out that you are fixated on the video when the concept is important.

Yes, i'm fixated on the fact that I stated " because everyone solo's Von leon, and Empress." and he decided to post a 3 minute video of an attempt, to discredit my statement. The concept is not important because CoH wasn't used, nor can we see an actual video of a complete solo.

In all honesty though, he misunderstood what I was saying in the first place. I wasn't stating that CoH was a useless skill I was stating the book is worth nothing and will continue to be worth nothing after chaos as well.

to be quite honest I didn't even know you were talking about soloing bosses until you recently stated so. I just took it and said whatever. You brought up the 2 bosses as a means of proving to me that the invincibility frames were useful then when you said solo is when I said yeah because everyone solo's those two bosses.. then you gave a video as if soloing von leon, and empress is some sort of common event.

I brought up the two bosses because they're the only real situations where living as long as possible is important because pot cooldown and high damage attacks demands it.

Soloing von leon IS a common event. If it wasn't for the D/C glitching problem of course, but we ignore this of course for argument sake because it's important we assume everything is working as intended.

I never said empress soloing is common. I didn't even say it's worth doing. I simply said (through the video example) that it is attempted for reasons unknown to me. (perhaps to practice...gasp...staying alive in pot cooldown?)

I understand you stated that but you brought up end game bosses not me, I was speaking in general which would mean things that are common. But no my point would remain if you're fighting an end game boss you're not worried about getting this or that invincibility frame, you're trying to dish out your maximum damage so you can kill the damn thing. When you see NL's using Drain at end game bosses let me know, When you see shadowers using Chakra at end game bosses let me know, the list goes on and on.

I brought up end game bosses because of *see above point about it being the only situations right now*. Note that i mentioned future pot cooldown situations.

Dishing out your maximum damage entails living to do just that. Note that i mentioned this in the beginning.

I see NLs using drain all the time. If shadowers weren't so f'ucking retarded that they are so reliant on their so called "best avoidability/survivability in the game" to avoid death while remaining ignorant to the fact that chakra helps a f'uck ton more than shield mastery at pot cooldown they sure as hell would use it since it also cuts damage taken by a very significant % while in use. These examples don't really prove anything. They're the only HP healing skills those classes have besides vampire which sucks compared to what they already have.

Von Leon often solo'd? lols ok. Your reasoning wasn't very good so you might want to try again.

Extremely high monetary reward compared to other bosses isn't good reasoning for doing something? By soloing HT and getting the best drops possible (MW 30 (probably won't drop after chaos), 3 lined pendant, the most valuable books he drops) you would probably get the same profit. Except soloing HT involves a hell of a lot more effort (or NX/time/luck) than soloing VL and getting one 3 lined glove. Even then a 2L glove would (i think) sell for 800m. Clean i think 1-1.2b.

If you want to tell me that that kind of profit wouldn't make people want to solo it, that's fine, but the only reason why it's correct to say it isn't often solo'd is because like i said above, the D/C glitch gets in the way.

PRE-BB DUDE, WE'RE TALKING AFTER CHAOS. Also I already know what it's like doing that I solo'd RGS back then many many times. RGS is easy to do so but the combo will not suffice for all monsters, try doing so on anego continuously. Eventually the attack of the monster catches up with your frames and you WILL get hit. No you think you're right because you have no hands on experience, when you get some thn we can continue this discussion, for now it's 4 am and i'm heading to bed.

Mentioning it being pre-BB doesn't affect the point. The invincibility is still there. Therefore the applications are still there.

You have a DB? You've solo'd RGTS? Then you know what i'm talking about. It's easy to avoid fatal attacks when prompted.

No way! You will get hit? Where have i heard that before? Oh right!

I didn't say invincibility frames would keep you 100% untouched. I said invincibility frames would AID in you not dying.

I think i'm right because i have no experience? I'm pretty sure, since you (apparently) do have experience, that you think YOU'RE right. Does playing and having experience with a DB have anything to do with supporting the point that iframes are useful in keeping yourself alive? No. Keep in mind i play the class with the most iframes in the game. >_> I'm pretty sure that gives me enough experience to say having any kind of iframes helps keep you alive. I don't even have your avoidability. One mistake on my part can very easily lead to my death. With that in mind, you technically have more survivability than i do.

Edit: Heading to bed huh? Guess i must be pretty important if you're lurking this thread 45 minutes later. I on the other hand am staying up all night regardless.

No pomegranate they aid in you not dying but if you didnt die from the damn attack you eventually got hit with what is the whole point of using them? To SAVE POTS, which ISNT the objective in bossing.. The objective in bossing is getting your maximum dmg output while not dying!

Hahahaha. This is where your argument falls apart. Let me get this straight. You admit iframes helps in not dying, yet don't understand the point of using it, while 2 seconds later saying that the objective of bossing is to do maximum DPS while staying alive. You understand the point that staying alive = maintaining maximum DPS, yes? You also understand that saving pots in a pot cooldown situation contributes to staying alive, yes? Therefore you understand that using iframes to avoid fatal attacks, while saving pots, means maintaining maximum DPS.

I brought up the two bosses because they're the only real situations where living as long as possible is important because pot cooldown and high damage attacks demands it.

Soloing von leon IS a common event. If it wasn't for the D/C glitching problem of course, but we ignore this of course for argument sake because it's important we assume everything is working as intended.

I never said empress soloing is common. I didn't even say it's worth doing. I simply said (through the video example) that it is attempted for reasons unknown to me. (perhaps to practice...gasp...staying alive in pot cooldown?)



I brought up end game bosses because of *see above point about it being the only situations right now*. Note that i mentioned future pot cooldown situations.

Dishing out your maximum damage entails living to do just that. Note that i mentioned this in the beginning.

I see NLs using drain all the time. If shadowers weren't so f'ucking retarded that they are so reliant on their so called "best avoidability/survivability in the game" to avoid death while remaining ignorant to the fact that chakra helps a f'uck ton more than shield mastery at pot cooldown they sure as hell would use it since it also cuts damage taken by a very significant % while in use. These examples don't really prove anything. They're the only HP healing skills those classes have besides vampire which sucks compared to what they already have.



Extremely high monetary reward compared to other bosses isn't good reasoning for doing something? By soloing HT and getting the best drops possible (MW 30 (probably won't drop after chaos), 3 lined pendant, the most valuable books he drops) you would probably get the same profit. Except soloing HT involves a hell of a lot more effort (or NX/time/luck) than soloing VL and getting one 3 lined glove. Even then a 2L glove would (i think) sell for 800m. Clean i think 1-1.2b.

If you want to tell me that that kind of profit wouldn't make people want to solo it, that's fine, but the only reason why it's correct to say it isn't often solo'd is because like i said above, the D/C glitch gets in the way.



Mentioning it being pre-BB doesn't affect the point. The invincibility is still there. Therefore the applications are still there.

You have a DB? You've solo'd RGTS? Then you know what i'm talking about. It's easy to avoid fatal attacks when prompted.

No way! You will get hit? Where have i heard that before? Oh right!



I think i'm right because i have no experience? I'm pretty sure, since you (apparently) do have experience, that you think YOU'RE right. Does playing and having experience with a DB have anything to do with supporting the point that iframes are useful in keeping yourself alive? No. Keep in mind i play the class with the most iframes in the game. >_> I'm pretty sure that gives me enough experience to say having any kind of iframes helps keep you alive. I don't even have your avoidability. One mistake on my part can very easily lead to my death. With that in mind, you technically have more survivability than i do.

Edit: Heading to bed huh? Guess i must be pretty important if you're lurking this thread 45 minutes later. I on the other hand am staying up all night regardless.



Hahahaha. This is where your argument falls apart. Let me get this straight. You admit iframes helps in not dying, yet don't understand the point of using it, while 2 seconds later saying that the objective of bossing is to do maximum DPS while staying alive. You understand the point that staying alive = maintaining maximum DPS, yes? You also understand that saving pots in a pot cooldown situation contributes to staying alive, yes? Therefore you understand that using iframes to avoid fatal attacks, while saving pots, means maintaining maximum DPS.

Lol I give up. When the patch comes through you'll see soon enough how things work. You obviously don't have an NL, DB, or a Shad, so talking to you about this is just redundant. We're going in circles and at this point we can at best agree to disagree. Once chaos is released you can count how many db's you see still use CoH and get bac to me if you'd like I would love to see the results. staying alive =/= maintaining maximum dps otherwise drain spam on nl's would go with this and it's just not the case. You see NL's use drain all the time sure but there was a big part in that statement that you ignored, I said when you see them using it at end game bosses (HT, PB, Empress, Von Leon, Czak, CHT THEN come talk to me). When it comes to bossing in this game im sure many will agree that the idea is tank and dish out the highest possible dmg. If you would like for people to conserve their pots and time attacks that have iframes to not get hit then you would be decreasing maximum damage output not maintaining get that straight. But seriously i'm done with this thread discussion is going nowhere and serving no purpose.

[video=youtube;meYu2w1NJU8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meYu2w1NJU8&feature=related[/video]


Skip to 3:00 to see Cyanne fighting the boss.

[video=youtube;meYu2w1NJU8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meYu2w1NJU8&feature=related[/video]


Skip to 3:00 to see Cyanne fighting the boss.

As a lurking judge of this argument...based on the evidences presented, I hereby declare the winner of this case to be Takebacker.

[video=youtube;meYu2w1NJU8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meYu2w1NJU8&feature=related[/video]


Skip to 3:00 to see Cyanne fighting the boss.

Hey look it's my in-game wife O:

I was wondering why you posted that video until I realised the discussion on iframes. Nicely done.

(video)

I didn't realize what the big deal was until i saw the bucc take 12k damage, and then i saw Cyanne has 9.7k hp. My god that's amazing.

This thread could have had some actual DPS calculations and discussion, but no... I think he mean't what has best damage, not what is "best class", as there really isn't one. And I think most of you knew the meaning of the thread, but still decided to nitpick...

Southperry, I am disappoint.

No pomegranate they aid in you not dying but if you didnt die from the damn attack you eventually got hit with what is the whole point of using them? To SAVE POTS, which ISNT the objective in bossing.. The objective in bossing is getting your maximum dmg output while not dying!

It does looks like you haven't played enough games with pot cool-downs to realise this...the reason why a player should avoid getting hit and attempt to conserve potions in a pot cooldown situation has nothing to do with "saving pots", but to "avoid having to use pots". These two points are vastly different; the former implies that the player is running out of either potions or money and thus has to ration them, but the latter implies that the player is trying to avoid using potions so that there is a lower probability that he will be caught by a near-fatal attack (and end up dying seconds later) while stuck in pot cooldown. This is by no means foolproof; he might end up getting caught in pot cooldown, but at the very least this wouldn't happen as often.

Invincibility frames are also very useful in maintaining high DPS. Think about it; would the party's overall DPS be better maintained if you die only once/twice throughout the entire fight (due to being hit right after the iframe ends, as you mentioned), or if you die ten times in the entire duration of the fight due to you not abusing the iframes at all (or not doing it enough)? Obviously, it would be the former case. Of course, if one focuses purely on staying alive instead of dishing out damage to the boss (this ain't a bullet hell game, dude) the party's overall DPS would suffer either way. Therefore, one should strike a balance between survival and damage-dealing to optimise party DPS, though survival is a little more important.

Agree with grey. Though his attempt to argue with the people above is pointless, they don't even know what an argument means or consists of, and are too sure of themselves to be taught differently.

Unfortunately, jumping in on what is already a closed and finished argument just to say you "agree with grey" doesn't place it in a better state of standing. Especially when there's evidence posted against his claims through the majority of the users he's argued with.

This thread could have had some actual DPS calculations and discussion, but no... I think he mean't what has best damage, not what is "best class", as there really isn't one. And I think most of you knew the meaning of the thread, but still decided to nitpick...

Southperry, I am disappoint.

Any job can have the best DPS thanks to potential.

Unfortunately, jumping in on what is already a closed and finished argument just to say you "agree with grey" doesn't place it in a better state of standing. Especially when there's evidence posted against his claims through the majority of the users he's argued with.

The evidence is pretty piss poor especially when toad boss is one of the slower attack animations in this game lol.. See db's against many other bosses, especially ones with multiple body parts that attack consecutively. If you thought out the boss run you really don't have a big need for iframes seeing as theres many other ways to get around the pot cd duration. The argument is dead lets just leave the thread die, nobody is changing their point of view here.

The evidence is pretty piss poor especially when toad boss is one of the slower attack animations in this game lol.. See db's against many other bosses, especially ones with multiple body parts that attack consecutively. If you thought out the boss run you really don't have a big need for iframes seeing as theres many other ways to get around the pot cd duration. The argument is dead lets just leave the thread die, nobody is changing their point of view here.

Even if it's a "piss poor" example, it's still an example of a DB utilizing the specific skills it possesses to the advantage of the argument. But yes, the argument's been dead. Someone else decided they could revive it.

Any job can have the best DPS thanks to potential.

Wrong.

So let's say godly Bishop beats Pap in 1min at lvl 200. "See! It's all about potential" No It isn't, because with the same fundings, a DB can beat it in 8-10seconds.