[1.2.378] Magicians in Jump

Well, the problem is it still has nothing to do with DPS. Any other class doing the same damage will do more DPS simply because they'll do it faster and hit more in a single key stroke than a Bishop.

So Papu dies in 8 seconds as opposed to 24 seconds (yes, I timed it)? 16 seconds difference doesn't seem like a whole lot on the damage difference spectrum. Granted, Steve even admitted that the reason why it even took as "long" as it did was due to his rusty play as a Bishop. In fact, it proves they're quite close if classes had similar funding.

Sooooo to hell with class balancing, get some NX now and stop peaching?

I'm not against class balancing, but my point is, b!tching doesn't mean much when you can just fund your characters up the wazoo and even out the DPS difference. I don't think there's anything wrong with class DPS at this point, even for bishops.

Angel Ray wasn't hitting max in the video. It was Bahamut.

Edit: NVM.

Yeah, I realized that after I rewatched.

I'm not against class balancing, but my point is, b!tching doesn't mean much when you can just fund your characters up the wazoo and even out the DPS difference. I don't think there's anything wrong with class DPS at this point, even for bishops.

Sure thing, I can "just" go get 3000 bonus int for my Bishop now...

When you take away that +3000 int and make it a much more common +200 int or so, the suckyness grows exponentially. So if a Mechanic with 3000+ dex can solo Pap in 4 seconds and a Bishop with 3000+ int can do it in 30 seconds, when you turn the bonus to a mundane +200 dex/int, it would take 4 minutes for an attacker job, but more than 15 minutes for a Bishop... and that's when you notice a difference. I'm willing to bet not many people have 3000 bonus stats, so they will notice the difference.

So yeah, b!itching about low DPS has a reason.

Of course if you're a godly-funded level 200, it doesn't matter. Well, unless you wanna be picky and complain about how single-target Angel Ray actually wastes DPS when that Bishop is hitting the damage cap.

So Papu dies in 8 seconds as opposed to 24 seconds (yes, I timed it)? 16 seconds difference doesn't seem like a whole lot on the damage difference spectrum. Granted, Steve even admitted that the reason why it even took as "long" as it did was due to his rusty play as a Bishop. In fact, it proves they're quite close if classes had similar funding.

Do we even have an idea of what the funding of the one who can solo it in 8 seconds is?

If you want to be somewhat fair, let's compare my Viper, a level 162 character with no potential gear, to TKWizard, a level 176 Bishop with a few pieces of potential gear which give a few %INT bonuses.

My Viper can solo Papulatus in about 2 ~ 3 minutes, where as the Bishop takes about 7 minutes. Though, I'm sure there are other factors involved, such as KBing Papulatus at the start and pinning him, BEING KBed, and whatnot, but considering the difference in levels and the difference in gear, I have a pretty good lead on the Bishop.

maybe the 60:40 ratio helps a little bit post chaos, but bishop "training" (if you can really call it that) is not really that beneficial. At LHC, while everyone was getting 30-40% an hour, i got a measly 10% (these are 15x people, not 12x people). AND this was with my being an "active buffer" not some boring person that sits on a rope (cause that's ridiculously boring). While everyone else could basically solo or duo a mob and kill it within 30 seconds, it takes more than a minute and a half for my bishop to take out a little more than 1/4 of the HP. Granted my equips are terribad, but they aren't any different than a normal, self-funded bishop has.

Bishops don't need to be top DPS or anything of the sort, just enough to significantly contribute to the party OTHER than their massive amounts of party skills. If people at LHC can get 30-40% an hour at such a high level, why shouldn't a bishop be able to as well? Or maybe trying to get 20%.

...
Seriously why do all of you insist we're not allowed to have damaging skills, what the pineapple people. To pull what Jess/Morgana said from like 5 pages ago, I'd like to be able to level as fast as my 30bilDPShellapotentialed friends that /don't/ play mages. There's no real motivation to /do/ anything when all we're good for is buffing.
I'm hoping that this is only the first of a few patches and they make our damage a little more tolerable. I'm not asking to be able to slay pomegranate at LHC easy, I'm asking to be able to hold my own when I don't have an element advantage.
[SIZE="1"]My I/L archmage friend is 133, I'm 140. I have max Buff Mastery, and 3% INT on almost all my equips, and most of my equips are scrolled. He doesn't. On Black Kents he matches/outdamages me AFTER the multiplier for me. If that's not demotivating as pineapple I don't know what is. [/SIZE]

Sure thing, I can "just" go get 3000 bonus int for my Bishop now...

When you take away that +3000 int and make it a much more common +200 int or so, the suckyness grows exponentially. So if a Mechanic with 3000+ dex can solo Pap in 4 seconds and a Bishop with 3000+ int can do it in 30 seconds, when you turn the bonus to a mundane +200 dex/int, it would take 4 minutes for an attacker job, but more than 15 minutes for a Bishop... and that's when you notice a difference. I'm willing to bet not many people have 3000 bonus stats, so they will notice the difference.

So yeah, b!itching about low DPS has a reason.

Of course if you're a godly-funded level 200, it doesn't matter. Well, unless you wanna be picky and complain about how single-target Angel Ray actually wastes DPS when that Bishop is hitting the damage cap.

Yes, that would be a valid difference if people retained their raw bonuses without potential applied. Then yes, Bishop DPS would suck. However, the point here is, you can make up the difference in sucking (which in my opinion, shouldn't have to be done in the first place, but that's not the argument here). Bishops do need a DPS upgrade, but it's not nearly as big of need as everyone here is seeming to suggest.

Also, having played on my friend's non-potentialed Bishop 13x, it takes no more than 8-10 minutes depending on various factors to solo Papu, but that's a story for another day.

Do we even have an idea of what the funding of the one who can solo it in 8 seconds is?

If you want to be somewhat fair, let's compare my Viper, a level 162 character with no potential gear, to TKWizard, a level 176 Bishop with a few pieces of potential gear which give a few %INT bonuses.

My Viper can solo Papulatus in about 2 ~ 3 minutes, where as the Bishop takes about 7 minutes. Though, I'm sure there are other factors involved, such as KBing Papulatus at the start and pinning him, BEING KBed, and whatnot, but considering the difference in levels and the difference in gear, I have a pretty good lead on the Bishop.

There's no denying that a class made primarily for attacking would have a lead on a Bishop. I didn't say Bishops would have a lead either. I'm suggesting that Bishops aren't as far behind as people are making them out to be.

I just don't think nexon has any idea how to really buff magicians.. well.. at least they are trying to give magicians pseudo-new dynamics.. (hero's chance attack) I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming patches they buffed a majority of the attack skills up to the 400%'s. Just to some how get a second glance from an attacking party.

Bishops just never seem to get that buff they deserve, at least to make them maybe 1/2 of an attacking class.

I think blizzard should freeze bosses at 60% rate for 10 seconds. It would make them wanted at bossing, enhance their solo bossing (they hve threaten/flash bang/panic at big runs anyway), and give more reason to use blizzard.

This seems like overkill and underkill for me, I don't know if a 60% rate would prompt increased Blizzarding from me at bosses or the investment of 30 SP early. And on the other hand, 10 seconds worth of freeze, if working like current freeze (no attacking, movement, etc.), seems too hacks: approximately 12 seconds of every minute (1/5) having a log for everyone to punch on. It would definitely help get me/us into bosses though...

Contributing more ideas: Stun or Freeze on bosses should work like an induced Stance or supreme (-1000 Speed) Slow, allowing attacking but no movement, and of course effective on non-mobile bosses. This would give Glacial Chain some use in pseudo-boss (Party-Play/Monster Park) situations, attacking with CL or some other freezing or stunning skill roots the monster to the ground creating a problem in mobbing, but "Get over here!" and you have a nice non-mobile mob that everyone can attack and that Extreme Magic can work upon.

I really don't understand all the fuss about damage and DPS rankings. It was all meaningless before potential, and its even more meaningless with potential. Case and point, that bishop probably kills papulatus faster than my nightlord does.

Bishops ought to be happy they're a support class with attacks period. Try playing game where you're pretty much just a buff slave with, if you're lucky, one attack at your disposal, and that one attack is about as effective as fighting a tank with a toothpick.

I really don't understand all the fuss about damage and DPS rankings. It was all meaningless before potential, and its even more meaningless with potential. Case and point, that bishop probably kills papulatus faster than my nightlord does.

Bishops ought to be happy they're a support class with attacks period. Try playing game where you're pretty much just a buff slave with, if you're lucky, one attack at your disposal, and that one attack is about as effective as fighting a tank with a toothpick.

A class with nothing but a couple of buffs that benefit a party and a heal can hardly be considered a support class. What do Bishops do in a party besides attack along with everyone else? An ungeared Priest can fit the healing/Dispel/buff role just as well - and that's hardly needed in the first place.

The significance of damage is watered down because of poor game design; it really doesn't matter how much DPS a group is outputting in MS as long as everyone stays aligve. One class having 50% higher DPS than another should not be insignificant.

I like how suddenly this thread went from ogling at the changes in general to how us Bishops got screwed.

...not that I'm complaining @ I'm arguing at how bleh we Bishops are too. xd

That said, this is KMST we are talking about. I hope hope hope the next few KMST patches address the Bishop issue in a whole slew of ways.

Looking over this from a Build perspective, I think it makes it harder to decide what skills you want to keep.

For example, in 2nd job, Slow went DOWN 10 levels, but you gained a new 10 level skill. Slow was my dump skill (only 1 point). However, The new 10 pointer is a must have. I have to ignore slow altogether and pull 9 points out of another skill. (I am thinking it will be MPEater because it no longer has the same awesomeness after Chaos.) Now instead of having 1 ignored skill, I have 1 ignored and one incomplete.

Youll be dropping fire arrow now.

Response to CarrionCrow

Totally this. It is sad when a whole branch of the magician tier gets reduced to "HSers". He is totally right about bishops losing their name to the only priest's skill that matters when training. The problem I see with bishops is that their Shine ONLY when they are bossing, but Bossing in MS isn't something to fully dedicate to (and the few that dedicate to this dont choose to be bishops anyway), out of the bosing ground Bishops can still be helpful as buffers but their abilities are not as essential other than Holy Simbol. So they cannot be attackers and they aren't necessary for other buffs either, that only leaves left HS as their main purpose and even HS isn't good enough to grant them enough EXP to lvl anywhere close to the rest of the party members. This turns into demotivation, which kills any fun, which turns into boredom hich turns them into mules.

Concerning the Bishop changes, I hope Nexon realizes they still have a lot to do. I would like to see a few changes, for example:

-Increase Shinning ray dmg from 200 to 300% x 3. Angel Ray dmg from 900 to 1200% (I certainly don't know how big of a boost they would need to finally be able to be considered as attackers but angel ray and shinning ray definitely need a boost)
-A new animation for Angel's ray (FOR GODS SAKE CAN'T ANYONE ELSE SEE IT LOOKS AS GOOD AS AN ARCHER SHOOTING A SOUL ARROW WITH THE CTR KEY?, It would make a lot more sense if it looked like evan's magic flare).
-Make doom work on bosses with a big cooldown, (work for 40 seconds every 10 mins?),
-Making HS grant the priest/Bishop 200% exp bonus above the 150% it gives to everyone else. (as someone above said)
-Increase advanced bless buffs (only a few points above regular bless wont make it any indispensable unless both bless and advanced bless can stack together)
-Maybe compensating the lack of DoT in Holy Big bang by taking out the charge up.

Or just pull 20 SP out of somewhere and give them a transformation skill that boosts all their abilities (attacks and buffs) by 30% for a period of time? That would be cool. These are all suggestions so sure I can be wrong, what is not is the conclusion that bishops still need changes.

While the new animations are great, I'm seeing a lot of reused animations. ):

For example, Shining Ray's wings are a recoloured and resized version of Dark Genesis.
Mist Eruption's swirly smoke thing is just like Evan's Phantom Imprint animation.
Glacial Chain's pull-back "force" thing is from Evan's Dragon Thrust.

It can't be helped I suppose.

-Maybe compensating the lack of DoT in Holy Big bang by taking out the charge up.

Big Bang without charge time would be an overpowered skill. It casts as fast as paralyze/angel ray for meteor/genesis damage. It's only balanced since instead of 720ms you take 1720ms, more than double.
I agree though that bishops should get an increase in their solo damage AND supportive abilities (and Angel Ray's animation).

Youll be dropping fire arrow now.

Except you and the last guy who answered are assuming I am F/P, which I am not.

I am not confused about anything, it's just a tough decision. Losing 10 levels out of Slow doesn;t give me 10 points to spend on +40 Int. I'll have to take it out of a skill that I have already maxed out.

While the new animations are great, I'm seeing a lot of reused animations. ):

For example, Shining Ray's wings are a recoloured and resized version of Dark Genesis.
Mist Eruption's swirly smoke thing is just like Evan's Phantom Imprint animation.
Glacial Chain's pull-back "force" thing is from Evan's Dragon Thrust.

It can't be helped I suppose.

I've said this once already, but Nexon reuses a LOT of their animations. Ground smash uses the dust kicked up from Blast and Brandish, and the purple debris is a recolored version of Rage's animation. Brandish doesn't have a single original frame in it, and Backpin Blow is a reversed, resised, and recolored version of Rush. I could go on, but there are way too many other examples for me to list, and I'm sure you get the point.

Except you and the last guy who answered are assuming I am F/P, which I am not.

I am not confused about anything, it's just a tough decision. Losing 10 levels out of Slow doesn;t give me 10 points to spend on +40 Int. I'll have to take it out of a skill that I have already maxed out.

If you aren't a Fire/Poison mage then the skill you'll be dropping should be obvious. Drop Cold Beam, and I mean drop the skill entirely. Use the 20 points that won't be in Cold Beam and stick them in Slow and that +40 Int skill.

Except you and the last guy who answered are assuming I am F/P, which I am not.

I am not confused about anything, it's just a tough decision. Losing 10 levels out of Slow doesn;t give me 10 points to spend on +40 Int. I'll have to take it out of a skill that I have already maxed out.

We'll probably be getting an SP reset with it anyway. You'll either take from cold bolt or MPE, most likely.