[1.2.378] Magicians in Jump

You kind of missed the point there...

A shot gun is a single burst fire, where as a machine gun is a continuous stream of bullets. If you miss with your shotgun, you'd be a bit more ticked off than if you missed with a couple of bullets with your machine gun, because at least you hit with some, unlike your shotgun where you completely missed.

This discussion is neither here nor there, but it's harder to miss something in range with a shotgun than it is with a single bullet.
Spread v single point of penetration and all that.
If you completely miss with a shotgun, you're either too far away or facing the wrong direction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxSMw3PsO1w

I have missed using single-hit skills up to 5 times in a row on monsters that are only 2 levels above me

Lucks a peach aint it, and I just realized why are we talking about misses, its not like its too hard to get to 200 so you never miss anything again.

They have a point. And this is what goes on.

Imagine you miss the first 2 hits you land, then land the rest, on a monster that takes 1.5 hits to defeat.

On a 4 hit move, You'd miss 2/4, deal half your normal damage, then kill him on your next move.

On a 1 hit move, you'd miss your first two attacks, then kill him in the next two successful ones.

First case, 2 hits. Second case, 4 attacks.

However you see it, multiple hits beats or equals single hits ANYWHERE. So yes, just tell me a single situation where single hits is better over multiple hits. Just one.

Ok here it is.

Imagine you land the first hit, then miss the rest, on a monster that takes 1 hit to defeat.

On a 4 hit move, You'd miss 3/4, dealing a quarter normal damage, then kill him... never.

On a 1 hit move, you'd land your first hit, killing it in a single hit.

First case, infinite hits. Second case, 1 attack.

Oh.. am I cherry picking my example? So were you.

Wanna go the probability way? Alright, multiple hits, you end up doing first some of the damage, then some, etc, or none, if unlucky. Single hit, you sometimes miss, dealing 0 damage, wasting a whole attack, happening way more frecuently than if you had a chance to deal some.

What? They both have the same chance of hitting. Being single-hit doesn't magically decrease hit rate.

And even at bosses, if those attacks somehow give a second effect like healing, darkness, etc, you need as many hits as possible to recover/have more chances.

You are actually correct there. If there's some secondary effect, more hits will increase the probability of procing the effect. Too bad this wasn't Sarah's point.

Why are we discussing shotguns and machine guns? It was just a poor comparison, just move along.

Ok multihit vs Singlehit discussion got boring already. Especially since you are only taking Miss rate in cosideration :/.

Ok, I'm not going to bother quoting all of the comments that I want to reply to as there are just too many of them at this point. Instead I'll just give a generalized post about why I agree with Sarah in this situation.

While it is indeed true that over time, the damage difference between multi-hit and single-hit skills will even out, it is also true that the % miss rate doesn't always work out exactly as a calculator would lead people to believe.

If, for example, I were to go on my Paladin and fight a monster I could kill in one hit using ACB, but I had a 50% miss rate for some odd reason, then theoretically I would be able to kill that monster in 2 hits if I miss on my first attack; however, that 50% miss rate is also present in the second attack, and then the third as well. I have missed using single-hit skills up to 5 times in a row on monsters that are only 2 levels above me, and have thus wasted a large amount of time, mp, and hp trying to kill a monster that could have been dead much earlier. If I had been using Blast at the time, which hits multiple times, then there's a good chance I could have killed that monster sooner (not to mention Blast's instant kill rate, but I'm ignoring that in this particular case).

Yes, when a monster has massive hp, multi-hit and single-hit even out after a while, but that % miss rate can be a pain in the ass sometimes and force single-hit skills to be utterly worthless at times. That is not to say that I think single-hit skills are worthless, but I do think that the current accuracy formula makes single-hit attacks far more annoying to use when a monster is above the player's level.


This will be the first and last time I will comment on this argument about multi-hit vs single-hit. Frankly I think both sides need to lay off, especially since each party is beginning to sink to petty insults and neither party has shown a desire to let up any time soon.

Glad someone gets the general point of both sides... I agree that the lack of tact shown was getting rediculous.

Anyways, whats the new party bonus system now? i see a lot more mobs here with it, yet the patch notes says it was getting taken away?

That hair. . .in spadows new video. . . .must get it. . .

You missed what he said, a shotgun is a scatter shot. It's bullet breaks up into hundreds of little ones. Shotguns are only powerful up close due to all the little pieces going into you. Shot guns are crap at long range due to the scattered-ness of the spray. It's much like a machine gun at long distances and less powerful.
Notice it sounds like they are the same?

it was a bad metaphor.

machine vs sniper rifle, there it's been fixed. wrap your head around simple concepts please.

Lucks a peach aint it, and I just realized why are we talking about misses, its not like its too hard to get to 200 so you never miss anything again.

My, how relevant.

Ok multihit vs Singlehit discussion got boring already. Especially since you are only taking Miss rate in cosideration :/.

I can make it interesting again...., this isnt pre-bb def and crits are %s. Anything supporting them is luck and dmg cap

I can make it interesting again...., this isnt pre-bb def and crits are %s. Anything supporting them is luck

Let's invent a non-existing scenario to discuss!

Oh, I forgot to mention something earlier. A few people have mentioned that Holy Shield has been removed from Bishops, but if you look at their third job animations, then you'll find that the very first skill in their list has the same animation as Holy Shield.

For the case of non-100% accuracy, even in the long-run argument, at the limit of monster death (i.e. you're killing a boss, both types of attacks do the same amount of damage over a long period of time until you're nearly going to kill it), multi-hit still wins.

Let's consider the case where the monster has so little HP just 1 hit from either a single-shot attack or 1 of the multi-shot attack will kill it. Let's say you're accuracy is 50%, for the sake of convenience. For every (full) shot you miss, you need another shot. So what I'm going to do here is to find how many extra shots I need just to kill that monster.

If miss, then score 1. If hit, then score 0.


Multi-hit (4-hit, since the people here have been talking about CL):

Probability that I miss on all 4 trials in a hit = 0.5^4 = 0.0625
Expected score = 0.0625*1 = 0.0625


Single-hit

Probability that I miss = 0.5
Expected score = 0.5*1 = 0.5


What this means is that at the limit of monster HP, a multi-hit attack will have a lower chance of not killing the monster (obviously), which means that the expected number of attacks needed to kill the monster gets very very low. I can pull off the same calculation for the subsequent misses, and multi-hit attack will still win. For every 100 monsters I kill, only 6.25 needs an extra shot from the multi-hit skill, and 50 needs an extra shot from the single-hit.

The point about this argument is - time is valuable. Excess damage is wasted.

If you feel that KB is important... sorry it's now a multi-hit skill. Given the current potential system, hitting the KB mark isn't very hard... If KB is what you want, take heart that at least CL stuns now. If you're an F/P... err... nothing to say. I believe both sides know the pros and cons of both types, so stop trying to squash each other.

Again, chill. Can't we be civilised people here?

Hadriel

For the case of non-100% accuracy, even in the long-run argument, at the limit of monster death (i.e. you're killing a boss, both types of attacks do the same amount of damage over a long period of time until you're nearly going to kill it), multi-hit still wins.

Let's consider the case where the monster has so little HP just 1 hit from either a single-shot attack or 1 of the multi-shot attack will kill it. Let's say you're accuracy is 50%, for the sake of convenience. For every (full) shot you miss, you need another shot. So what I'm going to do here is to find how many extra shots I need just to kill that monster.

If miss, then score 1. If hit, then score 0.

Multi-hit (4-hit, since the people here have been talking about CL):

Probability that I miss on all 4 trials in a hit = 0.5^4 = 0.0625
Expected score = 0.0625*1 = 0.0625


Single-hit

Probability that I miss = 0.5
Expected score = 0.5*1 = 0.5


What this means is that at the limit of monster HP, a multi-hit attack will have a lower chance of not killing the monster (obviously), which means that the expected number of attacks needed to kill the monster gets very very low. I can pull off the same calculation for the subsequent misses, and multi-hit attack will still win. For every 100 monsters I kill, only 6.25 needs an extra shot from the multi-hit skill, and 50 needs an extra shot from the single-hit.

The point about this argument is - time is valuable. Excess damage is wasted.

If you feel that KB is important... sorry it's now a multi-hit skill. Given the current potential system, hitting the KB mark isn't very hard... If KB is what you want, take heart that at least CL stuns now. If you're an F/P... err... nothing to say. I believe both sides know the pros and cons of both types, so stop trying to squash each other.

Again, chill. Can't we be civilised people here?

Hadriel

If your overkilling something by at least 4x dmg, the arguement shouldn't be about 1hit vrs multi, it should be you need more content

If your overkilling something by at least 4x dmg, the arguement shouldn't be about 1hit vrs multi, it should be you need more content

You wouldn't be missing a monster you kill in even 1/4th of your attack damage.

If your overkilling something by at least 4x dmg, the arguement shouldn't be about 1hit vrs multi, it should be you need more content

? Sorry don't understand. Please explain yourself for the bolded parts. I hope you are indeed reading my argument properly.

Hadriel

I laughed so hard reading these comments. You guys are basically fighting over left and right.. who gives a pomegranate lol.

Anyways I like what they did with mages (: Kind of want to play my I/L again.

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD,EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT MULTI HIT VS SINGLE JUST SHUUUUUSH

SHUUUUUSH SHHUUUUSH SHUSH SHUSH SHUT YOUR YAP.

It does NOT matter. Now back to discussing the new changes

? Sorry don't understand. Please explain yourself for the bolded parts. I hope you are indeed reading my argument properly.

Hadriel

You said in ur arguement that a skill that does 1/4 dmg 4 times can kill a monster with one of those 1/4 atks meaning if you can do 4x the health of a monster if all hits connect, if so Nexon needs to design new mobs to train at.

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD,EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT MULTI HIT VS SINGLE JUST SHUUUUUSH

SHUUUUUSH SHHUUUUSH SHUSH SHUSH SHUT YOUR YAP.

It does NOT matter. Now back to discussing the new changes

Multi hit CL is a change from this patch even though it has been blown out of proportion

So now that the changes are more clear, I/Ls get the BaM's Dark Chains with DoT, F/Ps can make mist explode for high damage, and Bishops get Advanced Bless? Not bad. I'm interested in whether advanced bless stack with other things. Did the ultimates not change at all? They seem to be missing.

Fine. Back to topic.

I wonder why they made BB a 90% freezing chance for I/L... Yes freezing is obviously very right (I've been waiting for this change for a long time), but for all our spells it has always been a 100%-freeze thing.

Fiel... is there still no way to obtain the range of BB? Otherwise are we going to spam BB just to see if we freeze the monster? Anyway what for when I can just Chain left and right and BB them to bits...

Hadriel