Oh for hecks sake, I am seriosuly sick and tired of others discourging others putting up certain skills. From experience, I have tested most skills and 90% of them are not as what others describe them as.
Out of nearly every discussion and thread, I've been hearing "Thrust Sucks", "Arrow Blow sucks" "Doom is pointless" or maybe "Rage is useless". Next thing I know is that I'll be hearing someone shout "Meso Explosion is crap" >.>.
Anyway the point is that I've been hearing nearly everyone saying "Dont put on Holy Arrow, it sucks!", "lol HA is crap" or maybe "OMG NOOB, you put on HA! *defames*".
I created a cleric myself and trained it up to a priest and guess what? Holy Arrow wasn't bad as I had heard from other clerics, priests. True that Angel Ray replaces HA but could you be bothered training without it until 120?
Pros:
* Gives good KB
* Reliable on Dark Monsters
* Longer range than M Claw
Cons:
* Not helpful against mobs
* Does not pass through walls like M Claw does
* Damage not as balanced as M Claw
As you can see, I've balanced the pros and cons above.
Myth: Level 1 Shining Ray replaces maxed HA.
My Opinion: That is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard that came out from a cleric/priest. Firstly Level 11 Shining Rays damage becomes stronger than Maxed HA.
Secondly, those two skills are incomparable because they're two different offensive skills. Holy Arrow is a basic missile whereas Shining Ray is an AoE. Finally Shining Ray too has it's own disadvantages. This AoE has the most horrible range I've ever seen, Holy Arrow can cover that range disability.
Right now, you'd probably thinking that you can use Heal or M Claw to cover the range disability. Firstly Heal is unreliable in terms of damage and it only works on UNDEAD monsters, not demons. M Claws range isn't as good as HA, imagine you've mobbed a bunch of death teddys and one is left charging at you, would you prefer M Claw or Holy Arrow?
Overall you cannot compare these skills at all, they both have different advantages and disadvantages since they are two different kinds of skills.
Myth: Holy Arrow is considered the most useless skill in the 2nd job skillbook.
My Opinion: That, I have to admit I partially agree with that.
Heal, Bless, Tele are a MUST for maxing. This leaves MP Eater and Holy Arrow as the two most useless skills in the cleric skillbook.
Putting up either skill is entirely dependant on how well funded you are. Because I was heavily funded (over 20mil at that time), I chose HA instead of Mp Eater. Invinci is strongly recommended but not entirely necessary. If you think you're smart enough to not to get touch damaged by a monster then you dont have to max this (but its recommended for a precaution)
Still despite this, HOly Arrow is not entirely useless as everyone claims it to be.
Myth: Clerics arent meant for offense so what's the point of maxing HA if you're going to rely on party members to train you?
My Opinion: That sounds more like a priest with maxed Holy Sign. And for your information, clerics/priest aren't heal slaves for sins/dits or dragon knights. Where is the fun in the cleric if you're not going to attack?
Nonetheless even if you do not intend to attack often, you should still have an offensive skill to defend yourself with.
M Claw is ok in some cases but what if a monster (with high TD or touch damage) that requires a 1000 damage knockback charges in your direction when you're cornered?
Overall, Holy Arrow is not to be underestimated with, it is definately not as bad as you think.
It is a shame that ignorant players enjoy discouraging others from maxing a certain skill.
Clerics are made for partying with other classes and leeching exp. From Private Server experiance it takes almost 3 times as long to get a Cleric to level 200 than it does any other class - even those without mob skills such as Genesis.
I think overall people who express their feelings against skills are just showing off. "Oh I've tried that, it doesn't work" for example - they want to get the point across that "oh look at me, I have a cleric". MapleStory doesn't come with in-game skill distribution help. Also I don't see the point in following what others tell you to do - its your character, you do the experementing. (EG: I personally find Arrow Blow far better than Double Shot or whatever it's called).
2008-09-25, 09:41 AM (This post was last modified: 2008-09-25, 09:51 AM by Joe.)
Back when I was a cleric, I decided to max HA. At the moment, I was throwing a tantrum over being a support class, and decided 'what the hell, I want my own attacking skill'. To this day I still regret my decision. Of course in part it's because I chose it over teleport, which was a big mistake, but mainly, it's because I can't remember of one time I used the skill for serious training.
If you have a cleric/priest you have to accept the fact that you are a support class. Soloing will most likely slow you down, and I can't think of a situation where HA will be actually useful in a party.
I don't see how the KB matters if most of the time you'll be in the middle of an undead mob healing away (and SRing when you're priest). Dark monsters... again, maybe if you're messing around or hunting for an item, but training at dark monsters will get you terrible experience compared to undead.
So yeah, I still think HA is useless, replaced by AR, most useless skill in 2nd job book and clerics aren't meant for offense. And all the guides I've read come from people who have trained clerics/priests/bishops and know what they're talking about. I still regret not listening to them so I don't think they're "ignorant players".
Bottom line is, if you want the skill, get it. It's your character after all. If you want to make a dex bishop go right ahead. Guides are there so people can learn from others' experience and mistakes, and if most of them advice against HA, I'm sure there's a reason for it.
On neutral monsters, HA does about the same damage as magic claw.
If you max holy arrow, you miss out on mp eater. So from level 30-200, your mp eater is useless. I should make a debate on why you should max mp eater since 30-200 is a very long gap.
Also, HA will hardly get used whereas mp eater is constantly working.
From 70-80, you're still healing voodoos to death.
80-100, you should be in goby parties, since they are the fastest for you even if you're mostly leeching
100-120, befriend some archmages at newties since there's nothing faster than that in those levels. If you don't like leeching, party at himes.
I'm neutral on this, since from my own personal experiences (of playing 3 seperate Clerics).. HA seems to be more useful as a LUKless Cleric because you'll inflict more damage with it, however, when you get SR, not like it matters. HA is only fun for shooting to KB and what-not. That and looks cool, but it's uses are rather limited.
As a Cleric, you'll be with a Spearman/DK and mostly casting MG+Invincible+Bless and spamming Heal most of the time anyways. -shrugs- I see very little use for Holy Arrow, but it has more of a use if you're a damage-whoring LUKless Cleric. >_> So it's not obsolete, but it's uses are too limited to make it useful.
HA is nice in the lower levels since saving a bit of MP doesn't help much, and HA is fun to play with. As you level higher, HA starts to become useless, and when you get angel ray, it gets completely replaced.
I have maxed holy arrow and I still regret getting it over MP eater.
I took HA as well and I don't regret it. It's a hell of a lot more fun than healing, even if it's slower.
Also, it's not like it really matters. A single point in MP eater already does wonders for 30-100ish and you can just dump the doom points into MP eater at that point.
Migrant Wrote:Clerics are made for partying with other classes and leeching exp. From Private Server experiance it takes almost 3 times as long to get a Cleric to level 200 than it does any other class - even those without mob skills such as Genesis.
I have no clue what you're talking about. Currently the best monsters in the game in terms of XP are holy weak -- Skeletaurs. With a good lvl Genesis, you'll level very fast; actually all mages lvl fast. But Bishops have a strong attack without Amplifier, so they use less pots.
As for Holy Arrow, it's worthless. If you max all other 2nd job skills you'll have lvl 11 holy arrow. Those other skills have more of a long-term impact than Holy Arrow will. When you are training on strong undead monsters, Heal is a better attacking skill because it hits a lot of monsters and often lets you train without MG. MP Eater becomes worthless later on. But when I was training at Hoodoos and Voodoos, MP Eater allowed me to train completely without potions, which I liked.
Holy arrow is technically stronger than magic claw due to the monster's defense and magic claw hitting 2x.
According to hidden-street.net, at level 11 for SR even though the base attack is the same, the mastery is still lower. So it'll take a couple of more points to outdamage HA.
Then again SR is a mob skill and I think that's where people got the idea 1 SR > 30 HA.
In my opinion, there really shouldn't be a debate. It's either MP Eater or Holy Arrow. Getting either one doesn't affect you in the long run. MP Eater is nearly useless when you're spamming Genesis, and Angel Ray completely replaces Holy Arrow (I think even level 1 Angel Ray > Max Holy Arrow).
I get what you're saying, and if you want HA, it's not like I'm gonna stop you. But...
JezzaRules Wrote:Invinci is strongly recommended but not entirely necessary. If you think you're smart enough to not to get touch damaged by a monster then you dont have to max this (but its recommended for a precaution)
I lost all respect for you in this paragraph.
Invicible is useless as a cleric, but ESSENTIAL as a priest. Do you really want to be always using MG when you train, losing millions even if you're only HSing and not getting any drops? And it will make the difference between being able to Hime without HB and relying on HB, or even not ever being able to turn MG off at all!
Is skipping Invicible for MP Eater (a "money" skill) worth it?
Heck no. You'll spend far, far more in pots than you'll ever MP eat back.
Also, Invicible is percent-based, so it will be useful for ever and ever, unlike Bless. It's the best defensive skill in the game, at least until Smokescreen or Fake.
2008-09-25, 09:00 PM (This post was last modified: 2008-09-25, 09:04 PM by JezzaRules.)
Morgana Wrote:I get what you're saying, and if you want HA, it's not like I'm gonna stop you. But...
I lost all respect for you in this paragraph.
Invicible is useless as a cleric, but ESSENTIAL as a priest. Do you really want to be always using MG when you train, losing millions even if you're only HSing and not getting any drops? And it will make the difference between being able to Hime without HB and relying on HB, or even not ever being able to turn MG off at all!
Is skipping Invicible for MP Eater (a "money" skill) worth it?
Heck no. You'll spend far, far more in pots than you'll ever MP eat back.
Also, Invicible is percent-based, so it will be useful for ever and ever, unlike Bless. It's the best defensive skill in the game, at least until Smokescreen or Fake.
Obviously I didnt skip it coz I'm not stupid enough to. I know for a fact that some people I know from Sleepywood skipped it believing that Bless cancels out this skill (lol they got served). You know how bless cannot stack with certain buffs right?
To my opinion, Invinci is pretty much necessary unless you dont mind dying every now and then (lol).
MP Eater on the other hand is pretty much useless if you have funding. Even when you're training especially on a single monster, it is unlikely you're ever going to regain back all your MP. Do not forget that every monster have a limited amount of MP that you can drain, so if the monster has no MP left... no MP for you.
The problem with holy arrow is that magic claw does pretty much the exact same damage, though more stable, on neutrals with the added boost that it goes through walls. Although holy arrow does more damage on holy-weaks, heal does even more damage on healable, holy-weak monsters, and there are a very limited number of non-healable holy-weak monsters; the only ones I can remember right now are dark stone golem, malady, dark jr. yeti, dark yeti, dark pepe, and dark yeti and pepe, all of which are almost never hunted by clerics.
I don't think holy arrow is completely useless though, and I think people should decide between it and mp eater for themselves. Mp eater isn't a very good skill anyways.
I think of Holy Arrow as a fun skill. Using Holy Arrow may deal more damage, but clerics pretty much always use Heal for training anyway. MP Eater saves a bit of money, which is useful for unfunded clerics.
I prefer MP Eater, because I can still get 11 points in Holy Arrow to have fun with, but that's just my preference.
The more I think about it, Bless is pretty useless. The only stat that makes any difference is accuracy, and just about everyone including warriors nowadays have more than enough accuracy to 100% hit what they want to hit. The only time it might be helpful is at PQs and bosses, where warriors don't always have enough accuracy without Bless to 100%. But when the need arises, it's VERY crucial. Missing warriors don't contribute much to the party.
MP Eater saves several million mesos from 30-70, and several million more during priesthood. If you don't mind essentially buying a HA 'skillbook' for 30+ mil, go right ahead. But I believe the real choice is between HA and Bless.
I think I went through 3rd job *relatively* fast and I don't recall training on any maps in which HA would have been useful.
I was in hoodoos/voodoos for most of 7x, then was in himes most of the time until 120, with some gobying too. I solo'd a lot at himes and I absolutely loved SR there. Needless to say I put tons more money into pots (yay training with MG on) than equips when I was a priest, and I barely leeched too. Any help from maxed MP eater was appreciated =).
Different priorities I guess. Personally I am glad I got to 4th job training fast on mobby himes, and being able to play with the fun 4th job skills totally overrides any notion I may have ever had for maxing HA.
JezzaRules Wrote:could you be bothered training without it until 120?
Could I be bothered training without Holy Arrow? I certainly wasn't bothered in the slightest to get to 120 without it. To be blunt: Holy Arrow doesn't increase speed at all, and if used at inappropriate times, would actually slow down exp rates.
Quote:* Gives good KB
This is irrelevant in that a Cleric's main attack also ensures his survivability. Furthermore, a Cleric strives by being engulfed by mobs, holding them back only limits his ability to do well with Heal.
Quote:* Reliable on Dark Monsters
No cleric ever grinds on non-undead holy weak monsters. And if they did, they'd be failing to maximize potential in that Holy Arrow does terrible single target DPS, while Heal does rather good AoE DPS.
Quote:* Longer range than M Claw
Can this be backed up by evidence? I think not...
Most of your "pros" are things which do not help grinding. They can make for fun, but they do not have a positive impact on grinding.
Quote:Cons:
* Not helpful against mobs
* Does not pass through walls like M Claw does
* Damage not as balanced as M Claw
One con you missed: costs 30 SPs. It's strength isn't truly improved over Magic Claw on neutrals, and it's roughly 1.5x as strong as Claw on holy-weak. And that costs 30 SPs. Basically, Holy Arrow isn't worth the points it costs to max it; if things were balanced better, it'd probably only cost 20 SPs to max. At that rate, I would say it would probably be worthy of serious consideration across the board, despite the skill's lack of functional use in grinding.
Quote:Myth: Level 1 Shining Ray replaces maxed HA.
My Opinion: That is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard that came out from a cleric/priest. Firstly Level 11 Shining Rays damage becomes stronger than Maxed HA.
Secondly, those two skills are incomparable because they're two different offensive skills. Holy Arrow is a basic missile whereas Shining Ray is an AoE. Finally Shining Ray too has it's own disadvantages. This AoE has the most horrible range I've ever seen, Holy Arrow can cover that range disability.
Right now, you'd probably thinking that you can use Heal or M Claw to cover the range disability. Firstly Heal is unreliable in terms of damage and it only works on UNDEAD monsters, not demons. M Claws range isn't as good as HA, imagine you've mobbed a bunch of death teddys and one is left charging at you, would you prefer M Claw or Holy Arrow?
Overall you cannot compare these skills at all, they both have different advantages and disadvantages since they are two different kinds of skills.
SR at max does slightly greater DPS to single target than Holy Arrow. Thus, the only advantage max HA has over max SR in terms of single target is that HA can reach a bit further. This, however, is offset by the fact that SR can hit behind the player.
Quote:Myth: Holy Arrow is considered the most useless skill in the 2nd job skillbook.
My Opinion: That, I have to admit I partially agree with that.
Heal, Bless, Tele are a MUST for maxing. This leaves MP Eater and Holy Arrow as the two most useless skills in the cleric skillbook.
Putting up either skill is entirely dependant on how well funded you are. Because I was heavily funded (over 20mil at that time), I chose HA instead of Mp Eater. Invinci is strongly recommended but not entirely necessary. If you think you're smart enough to not to get touch damaged by a monster then you dont have to max this (but its recommended for a precaution)
Still despite this, HOly Arrow is not entirely useless as everyone claims it to be.
Holy Arrow is almost entirely useless in grinding, and most of the time, using it in any profound way during grinding will lead you to killing slower.
That said, Invincible is 100% needed. If there was any Cleric skill which was unfair, it is Invincible. It cuts damage taken by SO much.
Quote:Myth: Clerics arent meant for offense so what's the point of maxing HA if you're going to rely on party members to train you?
My Opinion: That sounds more like a priest with maxed Holy Sign. And for your information, clerics/priest aren't heal slaves for sins/dits or dragon knights. Where is the fun in the cleric if you're not going to attack?
Nonetheless even if you do not intend to attack often, you should still have an offensive skill to defend yourself with.
M Claw is ok in some cases but what if a monster (with high TD or touch damage) that requires a 1000 damage knockback charges in your direction when you're cornered?
All classes in this game are meant "for offensive". Anyone that says otherwise doesn't understand the dynamics of this game.
Quote:Overall, Holy Arrow is not to be underestimated with, it is definately not as bad as you think.
It's not "underestimated" at all. It's badness might be over-estimated, but it's not underestimated at all. The skill is weak (compare to other single target attacks a 2nd job Magician might have) and not useful in grinding (because HA usage is counterintutive to the fighting practices of a Cleric/Priest).
Quote:It is a shame that ignorant players enjoy discouraging others from maxing a certain skill.
I'm not ignorant, but I still discourage others from maxing this certain skill. It is because the skill is not worth it in the long run and is not applicably useful in grinding either.
Joe Wrote:If you have a cleric/priest you have to accept the fact that you are a support class
You're misguided. Do you realize that SR on holy weak alone allows for DPS rates right in the middle of potential DPS rates of all classes? Throw in some skilled telecasting and Dragon usage and a Priest SRing can be a major force to be reckoned with. Heal, too, because of it's speed alone, allows for decent DPS as well.
Joe Wrote:Soloing will most likely slow you down
No one is suggesting that a Priest should solo and attack as their primary source of exp. However, a Priest can function well as an attacker, and thus, their best source for exp would be to attack AND provide HS.
butterfli Wrote:If you max holy arrow, you miss out on mp eater. So from level 30-200, your mp eater is useless.
Not entirely true. Even level 1 MP Eater can be especially useful, even if it can't match the helpfulness of max MP Eater.
Quantact Wrote:MP Eater becomes worthless later on.
Not entirely true. It's usefulness wains, but it remains passively helpful forever, even if it's help is negligible while spamming Genesis.
ClawofBeta Wrote:Holy arrow is technically stronger than magic claw due to the monster's defense and magic claw hitting 2x.
This is true, however, the difference is minimal, particularly at the lower levels where HA's "usefulness" is at it's peak.
ClawofBeta Wrote:According to hidden-street.net, at level 11 for SR even though the base attack is the same, the mastery is still lower. So it'll take a couple of more points to outdamage HA.
Actually, SR is slower than HA too. So like I said in the spoilered section above, it takes SR until it's maxed to be able to defeat HA's single target DPS.
Quote:I think even level 1 Angel Ray > Max Holy Arrow
The DPS for level 1 AR is higher than level 30 HA, BUT AR's min is technically still lower than HA's min, meaning that although your DPS will be noticeably increased overall by using AR, you will occasionally get low hits.
Quote:The more I think about it, Bless is pretty useless.
It allows all party members a good boost of acc without having to worry about potions. Major draw for a Priest looking to get that symbiotic relationship with a DK.
That said,
Migrant Wrote:If you want Holy Arrow, get it.
This is the ultimate answer to the question. Holy Arrow won't help you grind, but maxing it instead of MP Eater won't make you grind more slower either (it'll just make for a little more pot cost through 2nd and 3rd job, with potentially no noticeable difference beyond mid 12x).
And if all else fails, you can always skip the loose points in 3rd from Doom/Dragon/Door and use that to max MP Eater after maxing HA in 2nd job. In fact, this is the build I would recommend for anyone who adamantly desires to have HA.
ps I notice some of you mention HA not going through walls. I think it is worthwhile to notice that some things COUNT as walls, like slopes. There are some slopes that arrow attacks can't hit "through". This is a major advantage for Claw compared to HA.
Err, contrary to popular belief, this game isn't 100% about grinding. For example, I took fire demon first over meteor for fun, even though fire demon doesn't technically increase my grinding speed. I could see where people are coming from if they want holy arrow since clerics are completely deprived of a proper attacking skill for their entire 2nd job unless they get holy arrow.
Russt Wrote:The more I think about it, Bless is pretty useless. The only stat that makes any difference is accuracy, and just about everyone including warriors nowadays have more than enough accuracy to 100% hit what they want to hit. The only time it might be helpful is at PQs and bosses, where warriors don't always have enough accuracy without Bless to 100%. But when the need arises, it's VERY crucial. Missing warriors don't contribute much to the party.
MP Eater saves several million mesos from 30-70, and several million more during priesthood. If you don't mind essentially buying a HA 'skillbook' for 30+ mil, go right ahead. But I believe the real choice is between HA and Bless.
Mp eater doesn't save anywhere near that much money even up to like level 150. Take NLC potions and the fact that level 1 mp eater is already about 25% of the effect of level 20 mp eater into consideration, and you'll probably see that level 20 mp eater barely saves you anything. Bless is very important when partying warriors because the highest accuracy potion sold in NPC stores gives 10 accuracy, while bless gives 20 accuracy.
2008-09-26, 05:45 AM (This post was last modified: 2008-09-26, 05:50 AM by JezzaRules.)
Whoa Afrobean, most of your debatable points are effective. And no I never said you ignorant or anything, I'm talking about the ignorant people that have been discouraging others from maxing HA calling them noobs or putting them down in any way.
I was on another ms forum site (no names given here) and I argued in the forum in the magician guide saying something about "Holy Arrow Sux, Don't put it on!". That jerk called me a noob along with a few unpleasant put downs. Well that's what I get for contradiction >.<.
