MM + Coma Macro could outdamage Brandish. (Math inside)

A few assumptions:
Max Chance Attack
Max Coma
1 Monster Magnet
1 Advanced Combo Attack

This is currently 1v1 only. Tomorrow at work, I'll work it out for 3v3, and for 6v6. The macro itself is comparable in speed to Brandish spam, since it's a macro. I've observed that for every 9 macros I could have squeezed in a 10th Brandish. It also covers more range, and keeps the monsters stunned 99% (exaggerated) of the time, while still killing them quickly. This macro has bumped my EXP/hr from about 20 to 30%ish. It also decreased my Honster usage by 100/30%. For mathematical simplicity, I assume macro spam and put FA first, since in my observations, MM doesn't activate FA (which wouldn't make sense anyway as it's supposed to pull and stun a mob, and FA breaks the stun). The math has FA first, because you most likely won't kill the monster in the first combo, and doesn't consider an initial, but it wouldn't change the numbers enough to matter. Anyway here's what I came up with. You could rearrange the order of the numbers, but you'd get the same result regardless. I'm going to math out the 3v3, and 6v6 tomorrow with the assumption that the 150% from FA is split, like it used to be. Confirmation of this would be appreciated, I haven't looked myself.

There's 6 possible outcomes when the above conditions are met. The prefix refers to the amount of orbs charged, and Coma is abbreviated as "C"

 Proofs

Combinations
4orb -> 2FA + 2MM + C = (0.4*0.22) * 0.22 = 0.01936
3orb -> 1FA + 2MM + C = (0.4*0.78) * 0.22 = 0.06864
3orb -> 2FA + 1MM + C = (0.4*0.22) * 0.78 = 0.06864 (same result as above, lulz)
2orb -> 1FA + 1MM + C = (0.4*0.78) * 0.78 = 0.24336
2orb -> 0FA + 2MM + C = 0.6*0.22 = 0.132
1orb -> 0FA + 1MM + C = 0.6*0.78 = 0.468

1v1
4orb -> 0.01936[(1.25)(1.5)+(0.26)(1.10)+(1.25)(8)] = 0.01936(12.161) = 0.23543
3orb -> 0.06864[(1.25)(1.5)+(0.26)(1.05)+(1.25)(7)] = 0.06864(10.898) = 0.74804
3orb -> 0.06864[(1.25)(1.5)+(0.26)(1.10)+(1.25)(7)] = 0.06864(10.911) = 0.74893
2orb -> 0.24336[(1.25)(1.5)+(0.26)(1.05)+(1.25)(6)] = 0.24336(9.6480) = 2.34794
2orb -> 0.13200[(1.25)(0.26+6)] = 0.13200(7.825) = 1.0329
1orb -> 0.46800[(1.25)(0.26+5)] = 0.46800(6.575) = 3.0771

3v3
0.01936*((1.25)*(1.5)+3*(0.26)*(1.10)+3*(1.25)*(8))
0.06864*((1.25)*(1.5)+3*(0.26)*(1.05)+3*(1.25)*(7))
0.06864*((1.25)*(1.5)+3*(0.26)*(1.10)+3*(1.25)*(7))
0.24336*((1.25)*(1.5)+3*(0.26)*(1.05)+3*(1.25)*(6))
0.13200*3*((1.25)*(0.26+6))
0.46800*3*((1.25)*(0.26+5))

6v6
0.01936*((1.25)*(1.5)+6*(0.26)*(1.10)+6*(1.25)*(8))
0.06864*((1.25)*(1.5)+6*(0.26)*(1.05)+6*(1.25)*(7))
0.06864*((1.25)*(1.5)+6*(0.26)*(1.10)+6*(1.25)*(7))
0.24336*((1.25)*(1.5)+6*(0.26)*(1.05)+6*(1.25)*(6))
0.13200*6*((1.25)*(0.26+6))
0.46800*6*((1.25)*(0.26+5))

MM+Coma	1v1	3v3	6v6
4orb	0.2354	0.6337	1.2311
3orb	0.7480	1.9867	3.8447
3orb	0.7489	1.9894	3.8501
2orb	2.3479	6.1312	11.8061
2orb	1.0329	3.0987	6.1974
1orb	3.0771	9.2313	18.4626
Total	8.1902	23.0710	45.3920

Did up the other numbers in excel. (Did the other math by hand last night... DOH!)

2307.10% at 3v3 and 4539.21% at 6v6. Seems it does outdamage Brandish spam at 3v3, since that's only 1800% at 5 orbs. I'll math it out with Orb charging and what not of brandish -> 5 orbs -> Coma

I'm confused how you're getting your numbers and what they mean.

I'm confused as to what's on your macro.
What is the attack that triggers FA? You say MM doesn't but I don't see anything else in your formulas.

Macro is MM+Coma I assume, Coma triggers FA (which is then counted first in the next combo)

So really it's MM (1-2 orbs) -> Coma (0 orbs) -> FA (0-2 orbs), it's just rearranged so all the orb charging happens before the Coma (ie, spamming the macro).

Then damage is calculated for FA (0 orbs), MM (1-2 orbs) and Coma (1-4 orbs) and added up.

I hadn't realized MM was such a fast cast in a macro though. On my DrK it takes a normal attack time.


I believe Coma FA just does 150% to 1 target. SB's the only attack I've observed hitting multiples.

Monster Magnet doesn't activate Final Attack anymore? How fast is it?

Just killed a Gatekeeper with MM, didn't activate FA once (2500-3000 per attack, about 120k hp... not likely to be chance)

Seems to be standard attack speed (800ms base) plus a cooldown? If I macro it to another attack they go the same speed, MM alone is slower.

Also some sort of glitch, if MM misses then it shows MISS twice.

Interesting.

With the model I'm using,

0	1	2	3	4	Finisher
14.99%	17.01%	13.58%	14.80%	14.65%	24.98%

Probability of orbs occurring; i.e. 14.99% of the time, you're attacking with 0 orbs, 17.01% you're attacking with 1, etc. This is with Final Attack and 1 Advanced Combo, such as using Brandish.

Compared to FA-less

0	1	2	3	4	Finisher
12.09%	17.50%	16.41%	16.82%	16.80%	20.37%

In terms of scaling damage to the probabilities, I think average damage combined with FA would be a good enough estimate. I don't see Monster Magnet charging Combo any faster. Its advantage is being able to stun and maintain Chance Attack, but its damage is so obscenely low at level 1, I don't feel this is significant until the really late levels of the skill.

The macro itself is comparable in speed to Brandish spam, since it's a macro. I've observed that for every 9 macros I could have squeezed in a 10th Brandish.

Seems to be standard attack speed (800ms base) plus a cooldown? If I macro it to another attack they go the same speed, MM alone is slower.

interesting bug. nice find.

permastunning monsters is an invauable tool. and not just because we do more damage to stunned mobs. will share, sister will love it.

Would MM+max driver out damage MM+coma and/or brandish spam?

Would MM+max driver out damage MM+coma and/or brandish spam?

You mean for a UA? I feel MM would be superfluous, as driver has a larger overall range. Stunning a few monsters ahead of you < spamming driver and hitting monsters all around you.
Haven't crunched the numbers, though.

You mean for a UA? I feel MM would be superfluous, as driver has a larger overall range. Stunning a few monsters ahead of you < spamming driver and hitting monsters all around you.
Haven't crunched the numbers, though.

But if you already have a mob on one side and can gather a larger on on your other side, driver would dominate. The entire thing would be a non-issue if MM+driver out damages everything else anyway.

But if you already have a mob on one side and can gather a larger on on your other side, driver would dominate. The entire thing would be a non-issue if MM+driver out damages everything else anyway.

That sort of thing probably needs to be checked on a map-by-map basis: how many platforms Driver hits, how big the map is, how dense the spawn is, what their HP is, etc. Also depends on how long MM+Driver takes compared to Driver by itself.

Macro is MM+Coma I assume, Coma triggers FA (which is then counted first in the next combo)

So really it's MM (1-2 orbs) -> Coma (0 orbs) -> FA (0-2 orbs), it's just rearranged so all the orb charging happens before the Coma (ie, spamming the macro).

Then damage is calculated for FA (0 orbs), MM (1-2 orbs) and Coma (1-4 orbs) and added up.

I hadn't realized MM was such a fast cast in a macro though. On my DrK it takes a normal attack time.


I believe Coma FA just does 150% to 1 target. SB's the only attack I've observed hitting multiples.

This is exactly why I did the numbers as so. If I worked out an initial setup and then added in FA, it would be a LOT more math, and the number would barely change (maybe 0.1-1% tops)

I did more observations last night for an hour at Gigs. It seems FA will break the coma stun, and I do believe youre right that coma FA only hits one, since when I was at grims, only one cannonball was being shot per FA activation, if it infact did mob, then in theory all 6 would be "destunned".

Still, the macro has a very nice speed, and at 3v3 it is extremely close to brandish spam, With the defensive capabilites, and range taken into account, it's basically replaced my SB in 6v6 scenarios, and Brandish 80% of the time.

In terms of scaling damage to the probabilities, I think average damage combined with FA would be a good enough estimate. I don't see Monster Magnet charging Combo any faster. Its advantage is being able to stun and maintain Chance Attack, but its damage is so obscenely low at level 1, I don't feel this is significant until the really late levels of the skill.

It's not the MM damage that makes this macro advantageous, it's the guaranteed CA Coma, and the defensive capabilities. In the 130s, this will most definately be outdamaged by Intrepid, but until that time, it's probably the most efficient way of leveling.

My range is about 6.6K max, so I'm nowhere near geared enough to kill things in 1-2 brandishes, I'm sure someone with 100% or more Str% would benefit from Brandish spam a LOT more, especially if they can kill a mob before a magic attack pops out. Where the majority of us aren't strong enough to do that, this is a safer, and more cost effective alternative.

I'm at work now, so I worked out 3v3 and 6v6 and posted my proofs as well as the data in a raw table in the original post.

Edit: On a side note, I almost feel like a Paladin with ACB spam when using this macro


Edit2: I just did a probability tree for 5 orbs for ACA and FA, and it came out with 59 possible combinations to hit 5 orbs. This'll increase exponentially to 10 orbs... @_@.

Stay tuned for the math!
Here we go... -puts on helmet-

Oh. I see what you did now. Your probabilities only consider the scenario of starting with 0 Combo Orbs. They don't factor in the chance that at any given time, you could have anywhere between 0 and 5 orbs.

i.e. probability of 1 orb = (probability of Finisher + Final Attack) * (probability of no double charge) + (probability of Finisher + no Final Attack) * (probability of no double charge)
P(1) = P(F) * 0.6 * 0.78 + P(0) * 0.78

Rather than P(1) = 0.78 * 0.6, probability of no double charge and no Final Attack.

Also, what formula are you using to get Coma's damage? I was under the impression it was (0.25 + 0.3*orbs)*Coma = 700% with level 1 ACA.

Oh. I see what you did now. Your probabilities only consider the scenario of starting with 0 Combo Orbs. They don't factor in the chance that at any given time, you could have anywhere between 0 and 5 orbs.

i.e. probability of 1 orb = (probability of Finisher + Final Attack) * (probability of no double charge) + (probability of Finisher + no Final Attack) * (probability of no double charge)
P(1) = P(F) * 0.6 * 0.78 + P(0) * 0.78

Rather than P(1) = 0.78 * 0.6, probability of no double charge and no Final Attack.

Also, what formula are you using to get Coma's damage? I was under the impression it was (0.25 + 0.3*orbs)*Coma = 700% with level 1 ACA.

Here is where I got my Coma damages (#230 by Stereo)

You will NEVER have 5 orbs.
There are only 3 skills involved in the equation.
MM (Can trigger 2 orbs, Can't trigger FA)
Coma (Consumes orbs, Can trigger FA)
FA (Can trigger 2 orbs, Can't trigger FA)

This means the most orbs you'll ever have EXCLUSIVELY using this macro is 4.

The reason I rearranged the numbers as such is because if A + B + C = D then C + A + B = D. I rearraged with FA first because Coma will leave you with 0 orbs. If I had Coma in the middle I'd have a 2 orb proc chance, a reset (Coma uses up the orbs), and then a 2 orb proc chance. I just put the proc chances before the reset for easier math.

Think of this macro more like an average over time. The first coma of the spam will always have 1-2 orbs, after that, granted it activated FA, this means we can have anywhere from 1-4 orbs.

i'm not sure why you wouldn't want to rush something every once in a while for repositioning... = possible 5 orbs...

something like that is hard to quantify though.

Oh, you're using Coma immediately after attacking every time. No wonder it confused me.

>Coma (Can trigger 2 orbs, Can trigger FA)
I think you mean "Can't trigger 2 orbs"

The model I used was actually charging up to 5 Orbs to use a Finisher (which is actually really crappy).

Oh, you're using Coma immediately after attacking every time. No wonder it confused me.

>Coma (Can trigger 2 orbs, Can trigger FA)
I think you mean "Can't trigger 2 orbs"

The model I used was actually charging up to 5 Orbs to use a Finisher (which is actually really crappy).

Yea... I meant to put Consumes orbs... Thanks for catching my typo.

This math is basically a "Heres a macro of MM->Coma, so go stand and spam, heres the % per cycle you do"

I'm gunna try and capture a value for the cycles/min, and hopefully one for Brandish, and Intrepid (If I hit 122, since I dumped all 3 into ACA by mistake), and see which does the most damage.

I'm at about 26/59 equations completed for Brandish (5 orb)...

59.... _59_... 59!!! thats how many outcomes there are with Brandish, ACA, and FA, with max FA and ACA level 1...

I absolutely REFUSE to do this for level 30...

10 orbs = DISGUSTING! I'll leave that for Senyain...

If you're only attacking once and then using Coma immediately, the most orbs you could have at any given time is six.

If you're only attacking once and then using Coma immediately, the most orbs you could have at any given time is six.

Where do you get that joe?

2 from FA, 2 from MM, nothing else gives orbs?

Plus with ACA1, you don't even unlock the 6th orb.