The "flaw" (it's not really a flaw, but i cant think of another word) with your example (the 25atk 80 luk) is that the amount of luk is much bigger than watk. say a level 10 thief is withholding from adding to luk and has 25dex and 4luk. they equip a 15atk glove, throw ilbis (+27atk), and using a 19atk garner. 4luk/61atk = 1luk:0.065atk. if you think about it, the formula 0.01xluk is more applicable to cases where watk is more than luk.
yes i did neglect to talk about chaos scrolls. my reason was this: if a person can afford 1 chaos scroll (just one), im 95% sure that they have a very good idea of how marketing works. if they fully understand how to market, im sure they can use the hundreds of millions to guide their way to some extremely well scrolled equips. 1 chaos scroll was worth as much as a 15atk glove in khaini at one point. chaos scrolled things should be one of the last things a thief should look at, if not the last. at that point, they should know enough about the game and build to be discussing chaos scrolling.
That post is wrong, plain and simple. I don't know how to describe it easier than to show "normal characters" where it is wrong by more than 400% while the complaints she makes are about issues of less than 1% error.
I don't see how you can reconcile 1 luk : 0.065 atk with 1 atk : 0.04 luk and say that it doesn't matter (that's more than a 38000% error in the 0.01*LUK method).
A level 10 thief with 4 luk and 61 atk will gain 15 times as much damage by adding 1 luck compared to adding 1 w.atk. I've played a pure int washed Assassin, I can empirically state that 1 luk >>>> 1 atk if you have very low luck.
Stereo Wrote:That post is wrong, plain and simple. I don't know how to describe it easier than to show "normal characters" where it is wrong by more than 400% while the complaints she makes are about issues of less than 1% error.
I don't see how you can reconcile 1 luk : 0.065 atk with 1 atk : 0.04 luk and say that it doesn't matter (that's more than a 38000% error in the 0.01*LUK method).
A level 10 thief with 4 luk and 61 atk will gain 15 times as much damage by adding 1 luck compared to adding 1 w.atk. I've played a pure int washed Assassin, I can empirically state that 1 luk >>>> 1 atk if you have very low luck.
i dont understand where you got the 38,000% error from. can you explain that?
1 luk : 0.065 atk vs 1 atk : 0.04 is only a difference of 0.025. which is a only 162.5% (okay that a pretty big difference lol). ill admit that noting the 0.01xluk formula seems to contradict the luk/watk and might lead people to confusion. seeing how the luk/watk already define the watk ratio, and the 0.01xluk is only applicable to extreme cases of high watk vs low luk. would you suggest i remove it completely?
I just skimmed through that thread, and I must say, it is really pineappleing sad how Xaile went on for 3-4 pages worth of posts stating something that is clearly wrong. Are people seriously that bad at math?
Damage = multiplier * w. att * LUK
Damage/multiplier = w.att * LUK
(w. att + 1)*LUK - w. att*LUK = LUK
w. att*(LUK + 1) - w.att*LUK = w. att
Increasing your w. att by 1 will add LUK times a multiplier damage. Increasing your LUK by 1 will add w. att times a multiplier damage.
Let's make a ratio, shall we?
[COLOR="Red"]
LUK/w.att[/COLOR]
This is the easiest formula in MapleStory. Get rid of that 0.01*LUK thing. If people can't add up their weapon attack and divide LUK over it, they probably won't understand the rest of the guide, either.
2008-09-15, 03:33 AM (This post was last modified: 2008-09-15, 03:35 AM by Russt.)
butterfli Wrote:seeing how the luk/watk already define the watk ratio, and the 0.01xluk is only applicable to extreme cases of high watk vs low luk. would you suggest i remove it completely?
In extreme cases, nothing makes sense.
E.g. say you have 4 LUK and 60 ATK.
By the formula LUK*ATK/20, your damage range max is 12.
If you increase LUK by 1, that makes your damage range 15.
If you increase ATK by 1, your damage range is 12.2. You need to increase ATK by 15 to make your damage range 15 (the same as 1 LUK).
Thus 1 LUK = 15 ATK.
And hey look. LUK/ATK = 4/60 = 1/15. 1 LUK = 15 ATK.
Oh and in the post you linked:
Quote:so a more extreme test for your method is the following:
1000 W.ATK, 500 luk
Normal Method:
1 W.ATK = 5 Luk.
Your proposed Method:
(Total luk) / (Total watk)
500 / 1000 = .5 luk per w.atk?
that seems a bit strange
Yes, it does seem a bit strange.
You know why? 1000 weapon attack is what's "a bit strange". That's all there is to it.
And yeah, if you had 1000 atk and 500 luk, you would gain twice as much damage by increasing your luk. Why? Because as a proportion of your base stats, 1 luk is a bigger change than 1 atk. A 0.001% increase is less than a 0.002% increase.
What i think i hate most about these formulas is it always seems to come out to, in my head at least, and i am no math major, that Total Damage Increase Due to LUK = Total Damage Increase Due to Watk, which doesnt seem to make any goddam sense to me. Everytime i run the numbers i fail at proving this mathmatically, and thats simply because if i tried to show, starting with the example of 500 luk, 90 watk, or hell, to make it simpler, 100watk and 500luk, the trying to convert all my luk into watk like you did for one point comes out to max damage of like 49.75, of course i realize that the ratio changes everytime i change the luk, so i realize where im wrong, but it still always bugs me.
Also, you might want to mention in the comparing Top/bottom to overalls that 10/30% overall add 5, whereas top/bottom add 3 each(both have 60/70 that add 2). And that means that any thief overall(such as female avenger, or the Bosshunter one) has a higher potential stat outcome then anything, because you may get +50 added to overall ( 10 * 5 ) whereas with top and bottom you can only get + 42 ( 7 * 14 ) added, the only benefit to top/bottom is that generally, they turn out better on average due to the extra slots, and the fact that people dont try to land 10/30s on every slot, making the top/bottom catch up in number of slots. Also note that there are no 10/60s for Top/Bottom dex, or luk, meaning more likely self scrolling will go disaterously. This also makes it more likely someone will have white scrolled and overall then top/bottom. And besides, the difference between Sauna/Bathrobe and Pirate top/bottom is also due to the fact that pirate gear has stat requirements, whereas sauna's do not, which is primarily why dexless uses them. And why lowdex if they get top/bottom go for some much lower level bottoms, at least, such as Brown China bottoms.
im trying to keep the comparisons realistic. a (legit) 50 dex/luk robe is very unlikely. also the 14 slots of the top/bottom is actually split into 7/7. if you blow the top or bottom up, you still have the other 7 slots. whereas the overall, once its blown, its blown. there are a handful of items that have straight all 4, 5 or 6 30%'s and its because they have 7 slots that keep them alive.
by realistic i mean scrollings like landing a 30% on the first 1, 2 or 3 slots, then 60/70% the rest of the slots--not things to their max potential like a 50 dex robe.
butterfli Wrote:im trying to keep the comparisons realistic. a (legit) 50 dex/luk robe is very unlikely. also the 14 slots of the top/bottom is actually split into 7/7. if you blow the top or bottom up, you still have the other 7 slots. whereas the overall, once its blown, its blown. there are a handful of items that have straight all 4, 5 or 6 30%'s and its because they have 7 slots that keep them alive.
by realistic i mean scrollings like landing a 30% on the first 1, 2 or 3 slots, then 60/70% the rest of the slots--not things to their max potential like a 50 dex robe.
I know, i was just posing potentials... Also it should be factored in that Reg Dex/ Low dex (except in near extreme cases) on the bonus past level 120ish(depeneding on build and party members) on Maple Warrior, as it only boosts base stats. So a dexless NL gets a larger boost then regular dex, or low dex, all things depending.
And Top/Bottom have a higher likelyhood of breaking, given that most people wont be risking their overall with a 70, when 60s are roughly same price(for dex, at least) and there are no 60s for top/bottom. But all in all your correct in your assumptions, Top/Bottom is typically better then overalls.
okay, so this section of the guide im not sure if its entirely correct and i have no way of finding out except for to ask people who know or if they've seen it in game.
Spoiler
Scrolls that give dex bonuses
10%
30%
60%
70%
100%
Helm for dex
N/A
+3 dex
N/A
+2 dex
N/A
Helm for accuracy
+2 dex, +4 accuracy
+2 dex, +4 accuracy
+1 dex, +2 accuracy
+1 dex, +2 accuracy
+1 accuracy
Overall for dex
+5 dex, +3 accuracy, +1 speed
+5 dex, +3 accuracy, +1 speed
+2 dex, +1 accuracy
+2 dex, +1 accuracy
+1 dex
Face eqp. for avoidability
+2 dex, +2 avoidability
+2 dex, +2 avoidability
+1 dex, +1 avoidability
+1 dex, +1 avoidability
+1 avoidability
Bottomwear for dex
N/A
+3 dex
+2 dex
+2 dex
+1 dex
Shoes for jump
+3 dex, +5 jump, +1 speed
+3 dex, +5 jump, +1 speed
+1 dex, +2 jump
+1 dex, +2 jump
+1 jump
Cape for dex
+3 dex
+3 dex
+2 dex
+2 dex
+1 dex
Earrings for dex
N/A
+3 dex
N/A
+2 dex
N/A
Scrolls that give luk bonuses
10%
30%
60%
70%
100%
Earrings for luk
N/A
+3 luk
N/A
+2 luk
N/A
Overall for luk
+5 luk, +3 avoidablilty, +1 accuracy
+5 luk, +3 avoidablilty, +1 accuracy
+2 luk, +1 avoidablilty
+2 luk, +1 avoidablilty
N/A
Topwear for luk
+3 luk
+3 luk
+2 luk
+2 luk
+1 luk
Cape for luk
+3 luk
+3 luk
+2 luk
+2 luk
+1 luk
Scrolls that give watk bonuses
10%
30%
60%
70%
100%
Weapon for att
+5 watk
+5 watk
+2 watk
+2 watk
+1 watk
Glove for att
+3 watk
+3 watk
+2 watk
+2 watk
+1 wak
hidden-street is good but isnt perfect. if these are any errors and if someone who likes to waste time correcting things, id appreciate it if you can point out anything thats wrong about these tables.
like "hey bottomwear for dex 60% doesnt exist" or "topwear for luk 30% actually adds 5 luk", etc.
butterfli Wrote:okay, so this section of the guide im not sure if its entirely correct and i have no way of finding out except for to ask people who know or if they've seen it in game.
Spoiler
Scrolls that give dex bonuses
10%
30%
60%
70%
100%
Helm for dex
N/A
+3 dex
N/A
+2 dex
N/A
Helm for accuracy
+2 dex, +4 accuracy
+2 dex, +4 accuracy
+1 dex, +2 accuracy
+1 dex, +2 accuracy
+1 accuracy
Overall for dex
+5 dex, +3 accuracy, +1 speed
+5 dex, +3 accuracy, +1 speed
+2 dex, +1 accuracy
+2 dex, +1 accuracy
+1 dex
Face eqp. for avoidability
+2 dex, +2 avoidability
+2 dex, +2 avoidability
+1 dex, +1 avoidability
+1 dex, +1 avoidability
+1 avoidability
Bottomwear for dex
N/A
+3 dex
+2 dex
+2 dex
+1 dex
Shoes for jump
+3 dex, +5 jump, +1 speed
+3 dex, +5 jump, +1 speed
+1 dex, +2 jump
+1 dex, +2 jump
+1 jump
Cape for dex
+3 dex
+3 dex
+2 dex
+2 dex
+1 dex
Earrings for dex
N/A
+3 dex
N/A
+2 dex
N/A
Scrolls that give luk bonuses
10%
30%
60%
70%
100%
Earrings for luk
N/A
+3 luk
N/A
+2 luk
N/A
Overall for luk
+5 luk, +3 avoidablilty, +1 accuracy
+5 luk, +3 avoidablilty, +1 accuracy
+2 luk, +1 avoidablilty
+2 luk, +1 avoidablilty
N/A
Topwear for luk
+3 luk
+3 luk
+2 luk
+2 luk
+1 luk
Cape for luk
+3 luk
+3 luk
+2 luk
+2 luk
+1 luk
Scrolls that give watk bonuses
10%
30%
60%
70%
100%
Weapon for att
+5 watk
+5 watk
+2 watk
+2 watk
+1 watk
Glove for att
+3 watk
+3 watk
+2 watk
+2 watk
+1 wak
hidden-street is good but isnt perfect. if these are any errors and if someone who likes to waste time correcting things, id appreciate it if you can point out anything thats wrong about these tables.
like "hey bottomwear for dex 60% doesnt exist" or "topwear for luk 30% actually adds 5 luk", etc.
There are two bottom dex scroll sets. One has ACC/speed as the secondary stats, and the other one has only speed (though more speed than the first scroll set) as the secondary stat.
On a completely different note than what everyone else is posting...
Something I see missing from a lot of "how to make meso" guides is getting married and doing APQ on a regular basis. Now it does cost quite a bit of real-life money ($20-25) but over time, if you APQ regularly, it will make you much more money than $25 worth of gach would (on average... of course if you get lucky and get a 5 atk cape or a white scroll that's different.) I have three characters who APQ on a regular basis and I have literally made hundreds of millions just from selling apples. (Over the span of a year or so, but you get the picture.)
Let's say you APQ twice a day, 5 days a week. Let's also say that you get one apple from the bonus every other PQ. At the end of the week, you have 5 apples. In Broa right now, apples sell at around 3m apiece, and voila you've made youself 15m in a week. As long as you don't marry someone who will divorce you (i.e. marry a friend, a mule, or an IRL significant other) it is a very steady, reliable source of income. The only drawback to APQing regularly is that it might be out of the way (if you train in Ludi or Aqua, for example) and that apple dry spells are quite frustrating if you happen to fall into them.
If I were going to spend 25 real dollars to fund my character in MS, I would absolutely choose to get married instead of choosing to get 25 gach tickets.
2008-09-20, 12:42 AM (This post was last modified: 2008-09-20, 12:45 AM by butterfλi.)
Throws Wrote:APQ
yes we all seem to neglect apq as a sounrce of easy money... including myself lol. anyway it is now mentioned with credit to you for bringing it up.
'Lexy Wrote:There are two bottom dex scroll sets. One has ACC/speed as the secondary stats, and the other one has only speed (though more speed than the first scroll set) as the secondary stat.
butterfli Wrote:as far as i know, it isnt out? plus, i don't know anything about it... yet anyway. it might overshadow 60+ atk sleeves and cravens but we havent see anything yet. "raven claw or w/e". see? we dont even know its real name lol.
2008-09-20, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 2008-09-20, 02:42 PM by RoxStarz.)
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to responding to this post. Here is the specific part of your guide that I consider incorrect.
Question: I'm a dexless claw user. But I want to know if I can get more damage by convert to a dex claw?
Answer: If you are a dexless thief and want to convert to low dex or low dex extreme, you should consider the most important thing: is the watk boost from the dex claw worth it to compensate for the fact that you need addition dex? You can find this answer for yourself using the luk vs watk ratio (previously discussed and exemplified in section 3."Luk vs. watk Ratio". Or you just plug in numbers with the lucky seven damage formula. Or if you're lazy like me, use a damage calculator.
Until more dexless claws are released to the game, the state of maple global at the moment favors low dex players. Dexless claws are limited by the most important stat of the thief: watk. Claws that require dex will provide more watk because they have a high level requirement, which also gives them a higher base watk. The supply of dexless claws are also limited; there can only be so much to scroll and fail or scroll and finish that the supply of the most important dexless claw (the skanda, night raven claw) will run out; thus dexless thieves holding dexless claws will have to seek another way to obtain additional watk because the claw will no long supply more watk. The ultimate answer however, it still simply "the thief that has more luk and more watk will do more damage".
I don't even know where to begin here, but lets go back to the mythical lvl 110. Why do I choose lvl 110? Because it is currently the last lvl that a normal build Hermit would add dex to be able to wear a claw. From that point on it would be all put into luk, the same as the dexless user would.
At lvl 110 the dexless would have 542 luk and the normal dex would have 125 less luk, as it takes 150 dex to equip the dragon sleve. So 417 luk. Now we plug these numbers into the dmg formula. Maximum damage = (5.0 x LUK/100) x Weapon Atk
(5.0 x 542/100) x 4 = 108.4
(5.0 x 417/100) x 5 = 104.25
You can double check my math, but if I did it right, I have very clearly shown that a dexless sin needs about 80% as much W.ATT at lvl 110 as a normal sin to do about the same amount of dmg.
"Until more dexless claws are released to the game, the state of maple global at the moment favors low dex players."
OK, lets get to your low dex favored players. Unless you are talking about the 25 dex, dragon sleve weilding, low dex assassin I believe that your statement is misleading. It costs millions and millions of mesos to buy or scroll decent dex equips. If you are comparing a low dex character that cost 1 billion mesos to build compared to a dexless assassin that cost 20 million to build, then yes I agree that the low dex will be a bit stronger. If you give the dexless 1 billion mesos to spend on upgrading w.att you will find that spending the money on more w.att is a better investment than spending it on dex.
When does a dexless player lose its luster? We have already decided it isnt before lvl 100, so we won't discuss that scenario. Dexless is a paradox, it is cheap to be insanely powerful in the early lvls, and then it becomes extremely expensive to become insanely powerful in the higher lvls. When you get to lvl 110, 120, or so if you can't afford to buy powerful stars, capes, gloves, et cetera, you will be better off converting to a low dex build. And the dexless is set up very well to convert to a premium low dex build, because the dexless will know exactly how much dex it will have to add.
We all know that everyone agrees 25 dex with equips to allow the most powerful claws is the ultimate combination. For a rich dexless it won't require any a.p resets to achieve that situation, for any other build it will require a.p resets.
Also, on the note of the dexless Raven claw. It is from an exchange quest. It isn't going away. It is starting to show up, and dexless sins with a bit of determination should be able to get their own for free. You need to throw any build or accomplishment list before May of 2008 out the window because with the release of the Maple Skanda, and now the Raven Claws, it has altered the whole assassin landscape.
Also, there are a ton of event claws out there, and more will be coming next May. It may get harder to find them come Febuary and March, but right now I am still holding onto my inventory of Skandas cuz the price is too low to sell still.
butterfli Wrote:Rox, you contradicted yourself a bit. You start out saying that "dexless winning in every phase" then go on to acknowledge that "dexless begins to lose their luster". I'm confused on what to debate for on my part lol.
So you know that a dexless starts out cheaper than low dex. I agree. I mentioned it in the 2nd question of the FAQ. Decent kandayos are not only cheaper than a dex claw and it's dex equipment needed, it's also more beneficial because you don't need dex.
So you base your calculations of dexless vs low dex off of level 110. I'm sure you're familiar with the phrase "at later levels, dexless lose". In fact, you even said it yourself that dexless lose their luster. 110, isn't quite there yet. Somewhere in the 140-160 is when you can really see the difference in dexless and low dex. Even at 130, a dexless skanda user can beat low dex. You can see and ask any high leveled NL in here and here. The dexless all range between levels 30-100. But all the high leveled ones are all low dex.
So you say this guide is biased and it discourages the dexless build. The raven claw looks like a sleeping giant to be honest. But that's all that it is for the moment--sleeping. Until someone figures out how to get it, it doesn't hold any threat to the low dex build.. yet. We might as well consider the level 120 level up timeless claw. Because that'll really give a good push to low dex too even if it's not available yet. That claw is worth discussing, but what's there to discuss if no one has seen, used or mostly importantly, experienced it yet? And I did mention it in the 3rd question of the FAQ.
All the things you say I omitted, I did mention in the FAQ.
P.S. I am not trying to get in an arguement with you. I am just trying to educate you on the dexless build and throw out some ideas so that you can make a quality guide.
Dusk Wrote:I just skimmed through that thread, and I must say, it is really pineappleing sad how Xaile went on for 3-4 pages worth of posts stating something that is clearly wrong. Are people seriously that bad at math?
Damage = multiplier * w. att * LUK
Damage/multiplier = w.att * LUK
(w. att + 1)*LUK - w. att*LUK = LUK
w. att*(LUK + 1) - w.att*LUK = w. att
Increasing your w. att by 1 will add LUK times a multiplier damage. Increasing your LUK by 1 will add w. att times a multiplier damage.
Let's make a ratio, shall we?
[COLOR="Red"]
LUK/w.att[/COLOR]
This is the easiest formula in MapleStory. Get rid of that 0.01*LUK thing. If people can't add up their weapon attack and divide LUK over it, they probably won't understand the rest of the guide, either.
Simplifyyyyy:
Your damage is a product of two values: x * y
x = weapon attack (low when compared to B at high levels)
y = stats (very high at high levels)
If you increase y, you will be adding little damage because it is being multiplied by a small number. If you increase x, you will be multiplying it by the higher number.
i eliminated the things that were biased in the part you quoted. i also included the ravens claw into the guide since more people are learning how to get it. one last thing i wanna point out is that in it doesnt matter if it costs billions be hold a 60atk night ravens claw. when you get to a high enough level, the issue of money is almost irrelevant. because people are willing to pay anything to get what they want. even magicians: they pay max mesos for an elemental weapon. if a person can make one billion mesos, they can repeat what they did to make another billion. so for both a 60atk raven, or a 60atk scarab, it will cost billions. except that the 60atk raven will deal better damage.
I like this guild although it has me thorn between low-dex and dexless...
I think low-dex win no matter what and only two reasons..
1. Dex also boosts your atk range, but not as much as luk.
2. They too can equip skandas and other dexless claws
I don't know why people leave out the second reason, but it's true. They may not be aiming for them but it's possible.
I'm to lazy to do the math but can someone do this one:
Low-Dex | Dexless
Luk=200 | Luk= 300
Dex= 25 (+100) | Dex= 25
W.atk= 55 Skanda | W.atk= 55 skanda
kingdj333 Wrote:I like this guild although it has me thorn between low-dex and dexless...
I think low-dex win no matter what and only two reasons..
1. Dex also boosts your atk range, but not as much as luk.
2. They too can equip skandas and other dexless claws
I don't know why people leave out the second reason, but it's true. They may not be aiming for them but it's possible.
I'm to lazy to do the math but can someone do this one:
Low-Dex | Dexless
Luk=200 | Luk= 300
Dex= 25 (+100) | Dex= 25
W.atk= 55 Skanda | W.atk= 55 skanda
What's their damage range?
Can I ask you a few questions? I know that dex boosts your attack range, but does it boost the attack of Lucky Seven or Triple Throw? I will answer for you. No it doesn't. Attack range is irrelevant when deciding how much dmg Triple Throw or Lucky Seven does. The dmg formula is totally based on luk and w. att.
Regarding your second point. low dex can equip Skandas and other dexless claws. This in no way, shape, or form, helps a low dex beat a dexless in dmg. Why is this? Because the dex that the low dex has is "wasted" wearing a dexless claw. The dexless assassin is maxing out availble luk to make the most of that claw.
Lets do the math on your little scenario. Here is the formula. We will go with max dmg. Min dmg is the same except the 5.0 * luk is 2.5 *luk
![[Image: MapleStory2008-09-1919-06-44-04.jpg]](http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j255/carlos90_photos/MapleStory2008-09-1919-06-44-04.jpg)
