ShiKage's Big Bang Paladin Build

I can't say I've ever shared that experience... I've heard that technique before, tried using it, and it's never been faster than killing what's in front of me.

Really?
Seems like that's all I do on chars nowadays.

From iron mutaes -> roids -> wrs -> viks -> himes
All places where I've found it extremely useful and that's basically training from 30-110 or so.
It's also essentially what you do at typhons just instead of one plat it's drawing the entire map worth of mobs into you.

I've also been a fan of going to places extremely early from what's considered the "norm" (even on warriors) which makes that method much more effective.
Like you said it's not effective if you can take the mob down in one or two hits, but if you're taking them down in one or two hits you should have moved on to the next training spot anyway.

Seeing as how going to places before you are their level is going to be a thing of the past it probably will make that method a lot less effective where ground smash probably will take on a big role. All depends on how monster hp plays out, I wasn't in tespia so I can't really give an opinion on that (yes it's in the data but I haven't even begun to look at monster changes at all).

I've done that on non-warriors, particularly Brawler and Aran.

I guess the main difference I can put into words is that the Brawler and Aran are actually capable of going through mobs fast, by Combat Step for Aran, and Brawlers are just invincible all over the place. 2nd job warriors hit everything they go near, and it pushes them back, slowing them down... it's just not enjoyable training for me.

On my recent chars I've done the "go places extremely early" bit, with Galloperas from lv.71 on my Aran which is at least 10 levels before I've seen them recommended. It's the first time one of my Warriors has had the accuracy to do that, I suppose - and with the BB accuracy changes it looks like it'll be back to "not before you hit the monster's level".

Luring mobs to one place has never been a good way to train anywhere and only works if you need 10+ mob attacks to kill what you're training on. It's much more efficient to use 1v1 attacks if you have to lure just to get that mob.

I can't say I've ever shared that experience... I've heard that technique before, tried using it, and it's never been faster than killing what's in front of me. Which is only possible if you have a longer range attack, so you can hit stuff a couple times as you approach it. Otherwise you're slowed down by bumping into the mobs (which is the main complaint I have with trying to mob a map to one side - either you can jump over them, eg. Jr. Yetis, or you bump into every single mob you run past).

If you're 7x and not 1hkoing Kappas then you're a fair bit weaker than my WK was even back in 2006. And if you can 1hko then how do you mob them? Hitting once and killing is better than the faster attacks that take 2 hits to KO.

The main factor limiting where my warriors train has, historically, been acc - a 5x warrior, even one hitting 4-5k Powerstrikes, just can't hit Windraiders. Potential solved that temporarily, but BB is bringing it back - so I'll be in the situation where my attacks 1-2hko anything I can train on, and there's no way to mob.

I had no funds for that entire character, and as a result was pretty weak. I had no attack potions, no zakum helm, no work glove, no anything. My sword was some level 60 sword someone found when they were training and had no use for it so they gave it to me. I would do 2k if I was lucky back then. Since monsters Post-BB later on simply have too much health to 1-hit, this tactic will continue to work (For me at least) later on in the near future. On my current JMS character, I intend to do the same tactic in B2 and C3 when I reach that point, which shouldn't be too far away.

Maybe it's just how I played. I've always had more success against monsters that take several hits, have a large spawn, where I just grab them all at once then beat the crap out of them until they die.

I had no funds for that entire character, and as a result was pretty weak. I had no attack potions, no zakum helm, no work glove, no anything. My sword was some level 60 sword someone found when they were training and had no use for it so they gave it to me. I would do 2k if I was lucky back then. Since monsters Post-BB later on simply have too much health to 1-hit, this tactic will continue to work (For me at least) later on in the near future. On my current JMS character, I intend to do the same tactic in B2 and C3 when I reach that point, which shouldn't be too far away.

Maybe it's just how I played. I've always had more success against monsters that take several hits, have a large spawn, where I just grab them all at once then beat the crap out of them until they die.

I played an unfunded Spearman and I found it significantly faster using 1 Ground Smash than maxed Slash Blast. Spears have longer initial range than Swords, Axes, and Blunt Weapons, but I still found it unreliable to try to Slash Blast because knock-back can easily put you out of range, and there's just too small of a timing between deciding Slash Blast and Ground Smash on mobs when they're not aggroed against you. At most, I 4HKO monsters with Slash Blast, which translated to basically 2 or 3HKO max. Ground Smash allows for a gigantic amount of mobility over Slash Blast since you can't actually Slash Blast in mid-air if you want to hit monsters.

There's definitely some use for Slash Blast, but Ground Smash is significantly better in terms of utility, especially considering the amount of effort required to use them. Final Attack gives almost no benefit to skills unless you're single-targetting, because the probability and damage is so completely unreliable to kill mobs with Slash Blast, you almost always have to Slash Blast or Ground Smash again to guarantee deaths, otherwise you're delaying spawn.

In terms of lure-killing, I don't see it particularly viable until 3rd job, in which case you have Charge Blow to kill with.

In terms of lure-killing, I don't see it particularly viable until 3rd job, in which case you have Charge Blow to kill with.

It's not really viable until third job regardless because you're able to kill just about anything in 1-2 hits. There's no Monster HP issues until about Level 75-80, when the monsters start getting huge amounts of HP. It quickly rises from that point.

However, a lot of the popular training areas are small, or have large spawns on small platforms, like Trojans and the Robot guys under them.

You are right Pol. As always a warrior is an up close and personal in your face fighter. As stated, Ground Smash is just like that half baked Soul Blade skill for Dawn Warriors.

Besides... after Big Bang you will need every single 2nd job buff up skill just like you've needed them before. As stated, it's a throw away skill for excess SP. It won't have that great a usage. Soul Blade has gotten me killed numerous times. It's useful when you have something a distance back, but seriously, it's worthless to a warrior to be ranged for only a few levels.

Think carefully, a Page is going to need maxed Mastery, Threaten, Booster, Fundamentals, and Power Guard. Most of the time you will be going 1 vs 1 with monsters granted so Power Strike will need maxing out. Even then in 1st job you will want to mob kill faster so guess what? Slash Blast will need maxing. If you even build Ground Smash at all you cripple two or more skills for minimal gain that's entirely temporary. Plus, think carefully on this as well:

Power Strike with Fundamentals will do 380% damage to a single target. That's still a useful 3rd job skill and better than Charged Blow in certain situations. Slash Blast too will be useful as well at 250% damage with Fundamentals maxed hitting more targets and getting extra hits from Final Attack. In fact both will while Ground Strike is still only limited to 300% damage and hitting only 3 monsters a single time.

You build Ground Smash as a primary skill and you will find it to be less than what you've hoped from it. Soul Blade, as I stated, got me in more trouble than it saved me. The range was nice, but in all, it was not as useful as it was hyped to be.

You build Ground Smash as a primary skill and you will find it to be less than what you've hoped from it.

Coming from someone who's never even played a Big Bang Warrior?

And Soul Blade isn't good? Really? You expect people to take you seriously now?

Soul Blade is slow Joe 1-hand or 2-Hand. It doesn't knock back well enough and isn't fast enough like other skills are. The setup and recovery times are just too long. During that time you are highly vulnerable. I have a Level 60ish Dawn Warrior that I'm actually waiting for Big Bang to reset it's SP on so I can get rid of Soul Blade. By comparison Power Strike and Slash Blast are faster and more effective and do more damage and hits in the same setup and recovery time of Soul Blade. By the time Soul Blade activated, hits, and I recover I've done at least 2 to 3 attacks using Power Strike and Slash Blast with Final Attack, if not even attacked more monsters.

It's not if people take me serious or not, the skills and their times and effectiveness speak for themselves already.

What? Soul Blade is at most 180ms slower than Power Strike or Slash Blast. I don't know where you come to the conclusion that you can do at least two or three attacks in the same amount of time. Slash Blast is not more effective. You're just doing it wrong.

Unlike Soul Blade, Ground Smash is the same speed as PS+SB...

And I'm not sure I understood this bit.

Soul Blade has gotten me killed numerous times.

What did you do, forget to pot for 20 attacks? It's really hard to die in 2nd job.

From playing a spearman post-BB, I found it inefficient to use slash blast to train. Maxing ground smash gave me mobbing potential, range, and did better against singular monsters as well. Perhaps, on very rare occasions, SB could have been more advantageous, but as a whole training experience, SB just falls short to the versatility and effectiveness that GS offers. Though, this is just reiteration of what has already been said numerous times in this thread.

If one were to stretch the "long term consideration" logic, then one would, and I really would, put minimal points into slash blast and ground smash, and rely primarily on CB for mobbing i.e. 11 points into slash blast, 11 points into GS, since both would be replaced by CB.

IMO a person with sufficient control can use GS as a lure and SB as primary attack, thus providing more variations to the 11SB-11GS points addition - 20SB-1GS is a very real possibility. For me though, mana cost is also a consideration, and GS proves its worth here for up to 3 mobs worth. It's a very "algorithm". 1 mob within SB range: PS. 2 - 3 mobs, use GS. >3 use SB. If >3 in GS range but have mobs blocking you: GS+SB. If they shoot: don't be stupid to try and lure them.

The range issue with SB/PS is very true. Even 20 range makes a hell of a difference. But it very much is the same argument for using 2H sword vs a 1H sword in the old 2nd job days. Probability of encountering 4 mobs and above in a range of 180 units is rather low unless the mobs move fast and don't shoot (suddenly I almost want to model this using Schrodinger's equation or a PDF =.="). My thought is: isn't it all about getting used to a staple skill or a certain playing style? Why tear each other's opinions down when it's all down to preference? Or you could take all our advice - be flexible.

Point to note: SB on 6 mobs outdamages CB (assuming you don't need the stun) on 4 mobs. Again I would ask you: if you were a WK and you met >4 mobs, would you use CB?

Side note: if combat orders makes everything +2, then why don't we just leave everything at max-2, and with those extra SP I could cover more ground? On the other hand, it leaves a Pala quite vulnerable to dispel.

Hadriel

The only reason you would leave everything -2 is when you are already a High level WK/ Paladin but if page does it, he will considerably weak during training
Also, with the use of the -2 ( I have done the calculations but I can't find them all)l 2nd job skills can be maxed and all 3rd job skills with the exception of magic crash can be left at 17.
# Skills X 2 + Total amount of SP gained per job = effective SP
Total amount of SP gained per job should be listed somewhere

The only reason you would leave everything -2 is when you are already a High level WK/ Paladin but if page does it, he will considerably weak during training
Also, with the use of the -2 ( I have done the calculations but I can't find them all)l 2nd job skills can be maxed and all 3rd job skills with the exception of magic crash can be left at 17.
# Skills X 2 + Total amount of SP gained per job = effective SP
Total amount of SP gained per job should be listed somewhere

2 points of SP anywhere isn't enough to make a character considerably weaker. That's 61 instead of 65% mastery, and 288% instead of 300% ground smash. That's only a 5% difference in damage, which doesn't mean that much in training, especially if it doesn't make a difference in number of hits to kill.

From playing a spearman post-BB, I found it inefficient to use slash blast to train. Maxing ground smash gave me mobbing potential, range, and did better against singular monsters as well. Perhaps, on very rare occasions, SB could have been more advantageous, but as a whole training experience, SB just falls short to the versatility and effectiveness that GS offers. Though, this is just reiteration of what has already been said numerous times in this thread.

Add me to the "I played a post-BB Spearman and I think Slash Blast sucks ass" list.

Combat orders only affects 4th job skills for all classes and 3rd job for Cygnus ONLY. It does not affect 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Job skills for normal adventurers.

Combat orders only affects 4th job skills for all classes and 3rd job for Cygnus ONLY. It does not affect 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Job skills for normal adventurers.

Well, it does, but it doesn't push the skills above max level. The only way skills below fourth job will receive effects from Combat Orders is if they're not already maxed.

That's no way to build. Say for instance you are at a boss spamming Dispel, relying on Combat Orders will be more or less make you weaker as will your skills you are trying to use between Dispels and rebuffing. This same instance was the problem for people trying to rely on Maple Warrior to use certain gear when they were stat-less or low-stat. Again, this is a very wreckless way to build that will not benefit you in the long run.

What I'm trying to say is this.

Skills that look nice on paper almost always aren't the case in real usage and real scenarios. Ground Smash looks nice on paper. It sounds like a nice skill to have that's strong and dependable, but really does it effectively fit into a skill set for the 2nd Job that doesn't focus on going multi-monster attack constantly? True skill is knowing what is better suited to situations and changing as needed to adapt to the situation, not just having a one shot cure-all that focuses on the generic only.

Ground Smash does not replace Power Strike with Fundamentals and Final Attack effectively if you use it correctly. In fact as shown earlier Power Strike is stronger and is more suited for early bosses and PQs. Slash Blast is weaker but again Final Attack does present a possibility of extra damage on more mobs when used correctly and still hits more monsters at once.

Ground Smash does not combine with Final Attack for added damage meaning you'll always get that 300% damage ratio of your range. Even if Final Attack isn't an absolute it's a chance at extra damage per attack. While it may have limited range of effectiveness, you again have to think about it, what if you are in the right place when it activates and hits? That's 380% from Power Strike with Fundamentals + an extra 150% damage at random for more damage. Now add in 250% with an extra 150% possibility from Slash Blast with Fundamentals and Final Attack. That's 400% total damage at chance on up to 6 monsters total.

Now add in this... Final Attack will automatically attack. Even if Ground Smash does strike at weapon speed, it will not get an automatic 2nd attack.

Power Strike has a good probability of getting at best 530% total damage to a single monster.
Slash Blast has a good probability of getting at best 400% damage on up to 6 monsters of total.
Ground Smash has the set damage of 300% on 3 monsters only.

Regardless of range, power, etc. Ground Smash does not stand up if you know how to fight and know how to use your skills effectively and wisely.

Ground Smash does not replace Power Strike with Fundamentals and Final Attack effectively if you use it correctly. In fact as shown earlier Power Strike is stronger and is more suited for early bosses and PQs. Slash Blast is weaker but again Final Attack does present a possibility of extra damage on more mobs when used correctly and still hits more monsters at once.

Ground Smash does not combine with Final Attack for added damage meaning you'll always get that 300% damage ratio of your range. Even if Final Attack isn't an absolute it's a chance at extra damage per attack. While it may have limited range of effectiveness, you again have to think about it, what if you are in the right place when it activates and hits? That's 380% from Power Strike with Fundamentals + an extra 150% damage at random for more damage. Now add in 250% with an extra 150% possibility from Slash Blast with Fundamentals and Final Attack. That's 400% total damage at chance on up to 6 monsters total.

Now add in this... Final Attack will automatically attack. Even if Ground Smash does strike at weapon speed, it will not get an automatic 2nd attack.

Power Strike has a good probability of getting at best 530% total damage to a single monster.
Slash Blast has a good probability of getting at best 400% damage on up to 6 monsters of total.
Ground Smash has the set damage of 300% on 3 monsters only.

Regardless of range, power, etc. Ground Smash does not stand up if you know how to fight and know how to use your skills effectively and wisely.

Honestly unless you have max speed/jump and use a fast (4) sword with the longest range will the huge range advantage that ground smash has be compensated for. Final attack is a terrible thing to rely on to beat ground smash since the hitbox only comes out once and in the same area you casted PS/SB. So PS/SB gets much weaker when trying to maximize mobility, which is the best way to train when you don't have rush yet.