Cannon vs. demolition.

A friend and I were having a discussion recently, comparing these two skills to determine if they could possibly even out. For comparison's sake, I imagined a Viper and Captain fighting a boss. That way, 1HKOing wouldn't be an outcome.

Viper's Demolition is only usable while Super Transformed, and it is spammable, but the full animation takes a relatively long time to complete. Demolition attacks a single monster 8 times at 400% dmg each hit, or 3200% damage. A Captain's Battleship Cannon is only usable while on board the Battleship, and it does 380% damage 4 times on a single target, or 1520% total. Judging from just that, Vipers would sound like they destroy Captains in DPS, but there's one thing left to consider:

Could a Captain use cannon 2-3 times in the time it takes to use one demolition? With a Captain's attacking speed and the time it takes for the demolition animation to complete, I'd imagine it's possible. If a Captain could pull off 2 Cannons while a Viper uses 1 Demo, it would then be 3040% vs. 3200%. Not equal, but pretty close.

Note: For training speed comparison and bossing possibility the viper has wind booster, the captain does not.

One advantage of Demolition is the time of immunity you get. :x
Although Vipers have a set time they can transform for - Captains are only limited to the damage they take from the boss. :x

I'll go watch some videos, but I'm betting on three or so Cannon shots between each Demolition.

Demolition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay1LgKXPBIw
Cannon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhvPlKtr2Q

I'd say its three to four Cannons per Demolition. Just using my eyes though. :x

One advantage of Demolition is the time of immunity you get. :x
Although Vipers have a set time they can transform for - Captains are only limited to the damage they take from the boss. :x

I'll go watch some videos, but I'm betting on three or so Cannon shots between each Demolition.

Demolition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay1LgKXPBIw
Cannon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhvPlKtr2Q

I'd say its three to four Cannons per Demolition. Just using my eyes though. :x

Far as i can see through the first vid one demolition is roughly 3 seconds (?). I can't tell the time for cannon as well as i can for demolition but i saw it to be roughly 1-1.5 seconds per cast?

Get Fiel to extract the information from the Client? XD
I think it's stored there....

Cannon shoots at 100spm from what I recall of the other thread.

I watched the vids at the same time and cannon definitely has enough speed behind it to hit multiple times per demolition.

I watched the vids at the same time and cannon definitely has enough speed behind it to hit multiple times per demolition.

But remember, most Captains keep Battleship at level 1 for a long time, to avoid the long cooldown. So it gets destroyed quite easily in bosses

And even if you bothered demounting and remounting to keep it alive, you miss out on spamming Battle Cannon

When Vipers wouldn't have Timeleap (countdown reset), yeah Cannon would equal Demolition in DSP at bosses... however when a battleship is destroyed, there is no more Cannon to shoot, so it's pretty useless at bosses...

But again, Vipers have Timeleap, this results in when they party with 6 Vipers in 1 party, that they can use SuperTransform for 16 out of every 20 minutes (!!!), and when they're not transformed they always have Fist for the other 4 minutes...

No really, when it comes to bossing, Captains are "ok" but Vipers just outdamage EVERY class with their Demolition parade...

Timeleap is the winner here... especially when there are 6 Timeleap-able people in 1 party...

You forgot that since the Captain would be bossing, he would use homing on it to do slightly more damage. 400% damage per cannon ball.

But remember, most Captains keep Battleship at level 1 for a long time, to avoid the long cooldown. So it gets destroyed quite easily in bosses

And even if you bothered demounting and remounting to keep it alive, you miss out on spamming Battle Cannon

Did anyone ever find out how much endurance Battleship has? I was under the impression there was little difference between level 1 and 10.

When Vipers wouldn't have Timeleap (countdown reset), yeah Cannon would equal Demolition in DSP at bosses... however when a battleship is destroyed, there is no more Cannon to shoot, so it's pretty useless at bosses...

But again, Vipers have Timeleap, this results in when they party with 6 Vipers in 1 party, that they can use SuperTransform for 16 out of every 20 minutes (!!!), and when they're not transformed they always have Fist for the other 4 minutes...

No really, when it comes to bossing, Captains are "ok" but Vipers just outdamage EVERY class with their Demolition parade...

Timeleap is the winner here... especially when there are 6 Timeleap-able people in 1 party...

that makes about as much sense as a 6 shadower party. "OMG WII HAB G0DM0D3 43\/3r LOLOLOLl0l0l01l1l1110101oneone"

Why compare apples to oranges people both sub classes are fairly badass, battleship has its advantages but for the most part it isn't a bossing skill. It seems more suitable to buff the captain in training considering their plethora of immobilizing and de-aggroing abilities.

But remember, most Captains keep Battleship at level 1 for a long time, to avoid the long cooldown. So it gets destroyed quite easily in bosses

And even if you bothered demounting and remounting to keep it alive, you miss out on spamming Battle Cannon

Uh what? Have you even seen a Korean Captain build? Most of them max Battleship right after maxing Cannon. And getting off & back on the Battleship takes a lot less time than the cooldown would..

I agree with Arroz on one aspect though, these two skills shouldn't even really be compared. But Battleship is definitely a worthwhile bossing skill. Cannon is the most powerful attack a Captain has, of course they'll be using Battleship at bosses.

that makes about as much sense as a 6 shadower party. "OMG WII HAB G0DM0D3 43\/3r LOLOLOLl0l0l01l1l1110101oneone"

Why compare apples to oranges people both sub classes are fairly badass, battleship has its advantages but for the most part it isn't a bossing skill. It seems more suitable to buff the captain in training considering their plethora of immobilizing and de-aggroing abilities.

Vipers are unlike NightLords / Bowmasters, NOT dependant on HB (high hp), nor do they need constant healing from a Bishop. Besides that they do almost double damage of Shadowers in Super Transform (that is with 1on1 dmg) and besides that they have an insane RANGE with Demolition (TT/Hurricane like)...

When Vipers keep doing Demolition for 16 out of every 20 minutes, they also have godmode from their own skill (same as Boomerang Step from Shadowers). And since they will hardly get hit they won't need many pots, or healing from a Bishop...

That's why 6 Viper party's are VERY good possible, they just simply don't -need- any class to support them. And more party dmg / second = best for Boss runs.

Just see them as Night Lords with double HP and NL's having godmode while throwing Triple Throw...
If NL's would have had this at the moment, oh lord, save the drama that would cause... (VVTF!!! OVERPOWERED!!! NERF!!! NERF!!!)... :')

No really, I'm playing a lvl 160 Viper and Captain atm and testing it how they perform in different situations, and (sadly) I can't come to any other conclusion that Vipers will overpower and out-use any other class currently in maplestory. Captains are "OK" but not THAT godly...

But that's excactly why Nexon made them... Every NL-DPS-fanboy will needs to switch to Viper to be able to KS others again and be wanted at HT runs... and when all these people switch... $$$$$ for Nexon for the MASS 2x Exp card usage...

Nexon is so smart my friend... Just create a class that's a tad better then the current nr.1 classes and everyone wants to play it and Nexon sells NX $$$$ like it's warm bread....

You forgot that since the Captain would be bossing, he would use homing on it to do slightly more damage. 400% damage per cannon ball.

Yeah, we found that out soon after the thread was posted on basil. Kazoo and i both thought that if the firing rate was a lot more then demolition that it wouldn't make a difference but you are right.

1 cannon + AH = 18xx%. (too lazy to find the exact number at the moment >_>)

When Vipers wouldn't have Timeleap (countdown reset), yeah Cannon would equal Demolition in DSP at bosses... however when a battleship is destroyed, there is no more Cannon to shoot, so it's pretty useless at bosses...

But again, Vipers have Timeleap, this results in when they party with 6 Vipers in 1 party, that they can use SuperTransform for 16 out of every 20 minutes (!!!), and when they're not transformed they always have Fist for the other 4 minutes...

No really, when it comes to bossing, Captains are "ok" but Vipers just outdamage EVERY class with their Demolition parade...

Timeleap is the winner here... especially when there are 6 Timeleap-able people in 1 party...

Am i missing something? O_o How can 6 vipers use time leap 16 times in 20 minutes? You sure you don't mean 6? >_>

Cannon shoots at 100spm from what I recall of the other thread.

While demolition does how much?

Uh what? Have you even seen a Korean Captain build? Most of them max Battleship right after maxing Cannon. And getting off & back on the Battleship takes a lot less time than the cooldown would..

I agree with Arroz on one aspect though, these two skills shouldn't even really be compared. But Battleship is definitely a worthwhile bossing skill. Cannon is the most powerful attack a Captain has, of course they'll be using Battleship at bosses.

I was hoping you could add your two cents but why exactly to they max battleship after cannon? How does the durability compare from level 1 to 10? None of us really know but hopefully you can give us some sort of comparison or ideally some sort of estimate?

But remember, most Captains keep Battleship at level 1 for a long time, to avoid the long cooldown. So it gets destroyed quite easily in bosses

And even if you bothered demounting and remounting to keep it alive, you miss out on spamming Battle Cannon

Not spamming it is fine as long as i can use it all the time (if i'm smart) unlike transform + demolition.

I was hoping you could add your two cents but why exactly to they max battleship after cannon? How does the durability compare from level 1 to 10? None of us really know but hopefully you can give us some sort of comparison or ideally some sort of estimate?

I'm not really sure of the durability to be honest, but I'm assuming it increases a lot as you level it because I've never seen a build that doesn't max Battleship right after Cannon. I tried asking an 18x Captain on kMS but he didn't really understand the question, lol. I'll keep asking around and see if I can get a solid answer.

Am i missing something? O_o How can 6 vipers use time leap 16 times in 20 minutes? You sure you don't mean 6? >_>

I'll explain:
- Super Transform has a duration of 2 minutes, with a cooldown of 4 minutes, so for soloing it's like:
---> "2 mins super transform / 2 minutes normal = 10 out of every 20 minutes Super Transform"
- Timeleap (max) has a cooldown of 20 minutes

6-Viper party mode results in:
|01|02| |03|04| |05|06| .|07|08| |09|10| |11|12| .|13|14| |15|16| |17|18| .|19|20|
|ST-ST||TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |NORM| |ST-ST| |NORM|

16min SuperTransform & 4min Normal

5-Viper 1-Shadower party mode results in:
|01|02| .|03|04| |05|06| .|07|08| |09|10| |11|12| .|13|14| |15|16| |17|18| .|19|20|
|ST-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |NORM| |ST-ST| |NORM| .|NORM|
|SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |-----| .|-----| .|-----| ..|-----|

14min SuperTransform & 6min normal + 6min Smokescreen

These are a cycles that can be repeated forever. And for Smokescreen, you can put-in any other skill with a cooldown that can be Timeleap-ed...

When they need the first Timeleap again (minute 3 of the second cycle), the first Viper has cooldowned it's Timeleap because 20 minutes have passed since it was used in the first cycle...

When Vipers wouldn't have Timeleap (countdown reset), yeah Cannon would equal Demolition in DSP at bosses... however when a battleship is destroyed, there is no more Cannon to shoot, so it's pretty useless at bosses...

But again, Vipers have Timeleap, this results in when they party with 6 Vipers in 1 party, that they can use SuperTransform for 16 out of every 20 minutes (!!!), and when they're not transformed they always have Fist for the other 4 minutes...

No really, when it comes to bossing, Captains are "ok" but Vipers just outdamage EVERY class with their Demolition parade...

Timeleap is the winner here... especially when there are 6 Timeleap-able people in 1 party...

Timeleap can't be used to reset other Vipers' Timeleap.

Timeleap can't be used to reset other Vipers' Timeleap.

Well he obviously knows that.
If he didn't he'd just say to put two Vipers in one party and that's that.
He means the 20-minute cooldown that max Time Leap has will be over by the time everyone gets out of Super Transformed mode and used their Time Leap skill.

Except for those few odd minutes, but they'd live to be un-transformed for that long.

That's still completely unrealistic. It'd be pretty damn hard to organize a 6 Viper party in which everyone knew exactly when to cast what. A single person dying or d/cing would throw off the entire pattern. Not to mention you have no SE, no Bishop support ability, and no HB (Vipers have more hp than ranged classes but still significantly less than every warrior class).

Theoretically, a 6 Viper party would be very powerful. But in practice, it wouldn't fulfill your expectations and would probably end up significantly weaker than your standard DrK+BM+Bishop+3 NL party.

I'm much more interested in making a Captain than a Viper, so I'm also wondering how much the durability of the battleship increases as you level it up.

Also, I really don't think Demo has the range of an archer o_o It's probably equivalent to Boomerang Step range. I'm not even sure if Captain range matches archer range. We've had more range than any other class forever (yes, archers do have slightly more range than NLs), that would really suck.

 Spoiler

Someone said Demolition had the range of an Archer? LOL.