2010-04-26, 09:35 PM (This post was last modified: 2010-04-26, 09:37 PM by Takebacker.)
The way i see it, early 4th job will just be training normally until you can go to oblivion 4. At that point, sudden raid and venom will only be fore poisoning mobs that you couldn't normally get to (the platforms above you where applicable) so that they're near dead by the time you get there. Considering the fact that they have the new venom update, along with raid being a strong skill as it is, it'll be insane. ._.
Cyanne Wrote:Stack effect lets you train on royal guards, which is probably the best source of exp 150-200. Mirror image honestly isn't that great, it only contributes to like 12% of your total damage with maxed thorns, critical ring, and level 1 final cut. Unlike doing 0.6x your original damage like the way shadow partner works, it simply does 60% of your attack range each hit.
Oh wow, I just noticed that. X_X
Takebacker Wrote:"Keeping you alive" isn't really the same thing as puppet though. Keeping you alive would be absorbing damage, averting aggro would be the purpose of stack effect.
I might have read it wrong, but I thought that regardless of where it's placed it takes damage in place of you. I haven't even seen any videos of it in action. Sorry if I'm wrong.
InfiniteFusion Wrote:I dont see how Sudden Raid is so weak. When I saw the Sudden Raid video, it showed the Dual Blade doing around 20k per monster on average. Sudden Raid also attacks about two times faster than a mages ultimate, and that Dual Blader was 3HKOing those Skeles ( 5-6HKOing when his final cut deactivates, since it has a cooldown now). So, either that Dual Blade was extremely high leveled (I couldn't see his level)/ very well equiped, or your telling me that a Dual Blade that trains with his other skills give more exp than a mage spamming his Ultimate.
I think the DB in the Sudden Raid videos was 12x. I didn't say it was weak, I just didn't like it. No invinciframes so you get hit more often, pot burner, and it's just boring. Nor did I say that training with other skills yields more exp, although I don't doubt it could if you play it right, I just said that it'd be more fun to train like a non-Ult class.
Locked Wrote:I meant that the skill point thing was patched constantly.
I still don't see how that makes Tornado Spin useful
Oh, well when you put it like that...you get an additional rush effect after FA with the same number of mobs, and since all you have to do is press the attack key, it might be an increase in DPS. Just seems like an effective combination to me.
Takebacker Wrote:How about the fact that it provides a lot of damage, invincibility frames, rushing, and mobility all at the same time?
No, it doesn't. Probably just rushing.
Cyanne Wrote:There isn't that much to lose from getting tornado spin at the end of 3rd+, all you'd miss out on is endure and like 5 nimble body avoid, so might as well max it. I think everyone would agree that saving SP in 3rd job is better than maxing tornado spin in 3rd job.
Tornado Spin requires a CS Skillbook, which would be decided by "Is this really worth getting?"
Takebacker Wrote:Did you miss the movie before or what? That was clearly tornado spin.
I know that.
I'm stating that Tornado Spin probably only provides rushing. The damage done by Tornado Spin isn't so great, only thing I take back is my invincibility frames comment.
2010-04-26, 10:03 PM (This post was last modified: 2010-04-26, 10:06 PM by Cyanne.)
I'm only deducing that tornado spin is worth getting based on the fact that a level 163 in non-tespia kMS is using it, and I would assume by that level, he would know the best way to train at oblivion 4 =|
Flying assaulter probably has a delay or something, so tornado spin would provide the extra rush in that delay that you can't get from any other skill.
Updated the first post with the most up-to-date info, by the way. Apparently you can only save 1st to 2nd and 3rd to 3rd+ in the most recent kMS patch (lots of variations about SP saving because kMS kept patching it differently in the week after dual bladers were released).
Cyanne Wrote:I'm only deducing that tornado spin is worth getting based on the fact that a level 163 in non-tespia kMS is using it, and I would assume by that level, he would know the best way to train at oblivion 4 =|
Flying assaulter probably has a delay or something, so tornado spin would provide the extra rush in that delay that you can't get from any other skill.
Four people play that account, with 6 hour shares each. It's not only one person. So their experience with the class kind of varies.
You're right about the delay comment, it would provide an extra rush during the time.
This build "maxes" tornado spin which is useful immediately. It does high damage, though you won't max it until around level 100 or something. At level 16 it's range and number of targets is maxed out. 10 points are saved for 3rd+
Third Job Plus (Hime/gallopera build, though i'll be sticking to himes)
Spoiler
Level 70: 1 Bloody storm, 1 ADS, 7 Upper stab, 1 flying assaulter
Level 71: 1 Mirror Image
Level 72: 4 Mirror Image
Level 73: 8 MI (CS book)
Level 74: 11 MI
Level 75: 4 Flying assaulter
Level 76: 7 FA
Level 77: 10 FA
Level 78: 11 FA, 13 MI
Level 79: 16 MI
Level 80: 19 MI
Level 81: 22 MI
Level 82: 25 MI
Level 83: 28 MI
Level 84: 30 MI, 12 Flying Assaulter
Level 85: 15 FA
Level 86: 18 FA
Level 87: 20 FA, 8 Upper Stab
Level 88: 11 US
Level 89: 14 US
Level 90: 17 US
Level 91: 20 US
Level 92: 19 Tornado Spin
Level 93: 20 Tornado Spin, 2 Bloody storm
Level 94: 5 BS
Level 95: 8 BS
Level 96: 10 BS, 1 Owl Dead
Level 97: 4 Owl Dead
Level 98: 7 Owl Dead
Level 99: 10 Owl Dead
Level 100: 13 Owl Dead
Level 101: 16 Owl Dead
Level 102: 19 Owl Dead
Level 103: 20 Owl Dead, 3 Advanced Dark Sight
Level 104: 6 ADS
Level 105: 9 ADS
Level 106: 12 ADS
Level 107: 15 ADS
Level 108: 18 ADS
Level 109: 20 ADS, 17 Booster
Level 110: 20 Booster
Level 111: 4 Flash Bang
Level 112: 7 Flash Bang
Level 113: 10 FB
Level 114: 13 FB
Level 115: 16 FB
Level 116: 19 FB
Level 117: 20 FB, 2 Nimble Body
Level 118: 5 Nimble
Level 119: 8 Nimble
Level 120: 11 Nimble
I screwed up somewhere but you get the idea. Basically, i prioritize getting each skill to a decent level. I think at the same level compared to cyanne's 3rd job build, this one makes training much easier especially by the time himes rolls around.
I don't think tornado spin is very helpful in early 3rd job plus, as you don't really need to move faster than flying assaulter's speed, and I don't think the cost of being 5 levels behind in terms of SP in early 3rd job plus is worth getting early tornado spin seeing as how there are a lot of really useful skills in 3rd+.
But think about it. With max tornado spin, you can (probably) do the death blow combo as shown. Jump+US -> FA -> TS -> repeat. At a map like himes, this will rack up a ton of mobs while doing immense damage. MI only makes the combo even deadlier. Not to mention the 1 point in ADS, which allows you to chill in DS until mobs start forming, and then starting the combo again all without using a single potion.
You're not going to be very strong in your 70s unless you have overpowered stuff, so you're not going to be tearing through hime maps like that early on. Tornado spin actually has pretty low damage compared to the 3rd+ skills, and once you get your huge mob at the end of the map, you'll have to spam more of your other attacks that are weaker than they could be because of the points in tornado spin. At galloperas, they'll heal each other too. You can save tornado spin for after you get strong enough to use that combo effectively and use the SP from it to make your other skills stronger earlier. I still think that typhons will be better for dual bladers or at least just as good as himes or galloperas though, especially with the lack of crowding/crow issue.
I know that but you're ignoring what tornado spin does for training in general. Useful at MP3, C-2, WRs, SBs, gallos, himes, and others. I know you won't be able to hime that early on. It has pretty good damage for a skill that rushes 8 mobs and works with MI. That said, once you have a mob rushed with FS and TS you can US or BS the hell out of it. This kind of thing works with low levels of all skills except TS though, since each one still hits a good chunk of monsters.
My idea of what tornado spin is once you have flying assaulter is just as an extra rush if flying assaulter isn't fast enough, so I don't find it useful in early 3rd+ since the best places to train on during those levels are mobby places with high hp monsters, relative to the damage you do at that level. And if you're not completely overpowering them, there isn't really much point to pushing them around more. Level 1 tornado spin does a decent job as a simple rush in 3rd job. Mysterious path 3 and C-2 are both maps for below 70, lower ascent has scattered platforms, stormbreakers have slopes and gaps, and galloperas/himes have a lot of hp, so I don't feel the need for that extra rush that early when flying assaulter is fast enough for your killing speed, at least until you're 100+.
I'd agree with getting Tornado Spin, but not until later on. It won't be nearly as useful in 3rd job as saving SP for 3rd+. You can get it later when it's more necessary.
My only problem with that skill is how irritating it is to use. Maybe it's just that I lag in KMS, but it seems pretty difficult to activate most of the time, and yeah Flying Assaulter does have a delay and Tornado Spin is the only move (that I know of) that can be used regardless of it or not.
I'm considering skipping Advanced Dark Sight entirely. You can't pot in it and from a few videos that I've seen it is very risky if you get hit just at the end of a Chains of Hell cast and use another one with like 500 HP left. I think I'd rather have a macro with DS and Chains like a DS Assassinate macro that some shadowers use. Whats your opinion on this? I don't know if I'm being stupid or not xD
PS sorry for double post! It's been ages since last post though.
Oh woops. I thought it worked the same way as Assassinate. My DB is only level 70 so I can't test that. :|
I don't think ADS is a requirement for Chains though, so you should be able to use it without. Once again, I'm not sure though. I'll have a look on EF forums/youtube or something.
I've only tried it with regular potting, there isn't an option to buy NX in KMST and I'm not high enough leveled in KMS to test that myself. If that is true, max ADS, if it isn't true, I'll max Endure/Disorder. Bleh.
Now that I think about it, advanced dark sight really is kind of useless, even if autohp does work in it. All of your non-chains of hell skills are so fast that you'll be out of dark sight anyways by your 2nd-3rd attack a vast majority of the time, and chains of hell has a delay anyways. There's only a 24.5% chance of keeping dark sight while alternating between chains and fatal blow or another attack, and dark sight barely takes up any time at all with the new updates if you macro it in front of chains. That small chance at saving a tiny split second comes at the cost of randomness to your character's actions, higher possibility of death, and 20 SP, so I think it's better off not maxed. You do lose the ability to walk into a boss with dark sight on and final cut out of it, but in that case, you'd be dead if you didn't leave dark sight.
