Weapon Defense vs. Damage Taken

Primarily percentage skills will always be the best way to reduce damage... the reason they're effective is that they reduce a percent of the total.

True, but combining the two, armor and buffs, has greater results. I read, back on SW, about a warrior who had 707 w.def, unbuffed (very possible with shield mastery). Now, combine this with powerguard and achilles. I bet the three combined could reduce Skelegon touch damage to 1k or even slightly under, assuming the 3.3k I hear sauna robe users take is accurate. Now, I dare anyone here to prove to me, mathematically, that taking 1/3 of the usual damage won't save a lot of money on potions and therefore allowing you to have much higher funding available to get godly weapons and armor. *waits patiently*

Might as well post numbers here...
Lv.38 Fighter against Street Slimes, 191~198 str (White Baseball Cap = +2 str, Fireman's Axe = +7 str)
3 wdef - Versalmas Hat, Black Strap Shoes, Maple Flag:
110-114 damage
64 wdef - White Baseball Cap, Silver Fitted Mail, Black Strap Shoes, Lionheart:
77-81 damage
97 wdef - Brown Bamboo Hat, Silver Fitted Mail, Black Strap Shoes, Lionheart:
59-64 damage
99 wdef - Mithril Full Helm, Sapphire Fitted Mail, Red Snowshoes, Lionheart:
58-62 damage
145 wdef - Brown Bamboo Hat, Sapphire Fitted Mail, Red Snowshoes, Fireman's Axe, Red Cross Shield:
33-37 damage

Thank you for posting these. I'm still unsure if Str really does anything in damage reduction, having not tested, but you still demonstrated something important: who can argue with taking less damage? The typical dexless assassin or Lukless mage, for example, lands around the 70 w.def range, assuming they have a bamboo hat, sauna and showshoes. Also, 145 w/def is actually low for a 35-40 1h warrior (lol bamboo hat, a great helm can add up to the same amount of str or dex if found as a drop, I think, at around 20 def more) and there's no mention of gloves either.

I'll be happy to contribute statistics around the mid-levels range (4x-6x) once I return to GMS from my testing in a private server. I'd contribute numbers from there, but since it isn't hosted by Nexon the numbers may be unreliable, or at least highly scrutinized (I'm nearly certain it's all the same formulas but I have no way of proving it)

No, that actually used to be the case. They changed the formula some time after 3rd job came out, I don't remember precisely when.

I knew about that, but the keywords here are "used to be." 3rd job came out... what, 2 years ago? I joined one year ago and 3rd had apparently already been out for a long time. You'd think that YEARS would be enough for people to realize, "Oh, that's wrong, maybe I should stop telling this guy who likes his armor that he's full of pomegranate, that I should stop KSing him for not wearing a sauna, etc." It gets really annoying....

Thank you for posting these. I'm still unsure if Str really does anything in damage reduction, having not tested, but you still demonstrated something important: who can argue with taking less damage? The typical dexless assassin or Lukless mage, for example, lands around the 70 w.def range, assuming they have a bamboo hat, sauna and showshoes. Also, 145 w/def is actually low for a 35-40 1h warrior (lol bamboo hat, a great helm can add up to the same amount of str or dex if found as a drop, I think, at around 20 def more) and there's no mention of gloves either.

I was just going with what was on the character at the time, in that level range my gear is actually pretty good.
Bamboo hat - 35 def - equal to clean Great Helm, beats brown bandana easily
Snowshoes - 20 def - 1 less than Trigger, much easier to buy scrolled
Fitted Mail - 60 def - beats every other class item I can wear at lv.38
(Shield + 1h weapon - 32 def - does not provide the damage to win CPQ)
(White Fingerless Gloves - 9 def - 6 less than the level 35 ones - currently stored elsewhere for some reason)

It could be improved but only by scrolling for defense or rescrolling things to replace my lower level stuff, which would cost a lot for a couple extra defense.

Fighter 2:
Level 53, 273+ STR, vs. various
-8 defense: (273str, with the assistance of lv.16 Rage..)
Slime - 35
0 defense (ditto without Rage)
Slime - 35 again
Green Mushroom - 85-88
Horny Mushroom - 101-104
7 defense: (298str)
Slime - 31-32
Green Mushroom - 82-85 : 0.43 ± .14
Horny Mushroom - 98-101 : 0.43 ± .14
Croco - 343-355 (not fully tested, this costs a lot)
60 defense:
Slime - 5-6 : 0.49 ± 0.02
103 defense: (301str)
Slime - 1
Green Mushroom - 33-36 : 0.51 ± .01
Horny Mushroom - 46-50 : 0.54 ± .01
Croco - 263-277 : 0.83 ± .01
173 defense: (313str)
Horny Mushroom - 7-11 : 0.56 ± .015
Croco - 205-218 : 0.84 ± .015
281 defense: (317str)
Croco - 115-129 : 0.83 ± .018
(Monster - min-max : damage per def to previous ± approximate accuracy)

I guess monster level is important too... :/ Still appears linear for a given monster though.

Bamboo hat - 35 def - equal to clean Great Helm, beats brown bandana easily.

Just... 35 def bamboo hat? Just... what the? Seriously? You must have landed some 30% Defense scrolls on that sucker or something, I've only ever seen them with like 15-17 defense.

I do agree though, defense scrolls don't add enough defense for their cost, as well as in comparison to stats. They should increase the amount def scrolls add just to balance it out.

Also, no level 3x, no matter how funded, can win at CPQ alone, so the damage dealt isn't that big a deal; so long as you're not losing CP by dying, right?

Edit:

I guess monster level is important too... :/

For sure. There's a lot of variables, which is why I haven't sat down and worked at cracking it (more than ocne) yet.

The bamboo hat is 4x10% (owned it since before Cursed scrolls released) and I do win CPQs against other characters up to around level 42 :/ Maple Weapons really throw it off past there (I'm using a 64 Lionheart, 90+ atk Maple Axes are not unheard of), but a decently funded Fighter is very strong even at low levels.

I'm gonna try to arrange to hit up some of the weaker Zipangu monsters on as many characters as can reach a world tour. If you could do the same that seems like a reasonable way to hash out character differences. No defense, mid defense, and full defense numbers preferably for each. I think I'll go to the Extra A-B's since they do a bit less than Crocos, still enough to handle 200+ def.

Sure thing, I have plans for this evening but I have characters ranging from 10-57 that I can run into Fire Raccoons and Cloud Foxes with tommorow. My page may unbalance things though, he has 300+ defense, but if I can contribute any data to help, I will.

Lv.92 DK
0 def, 444 str
Cloud Fox : 124-128 damage
Leader A : 371-386 damage
Leader B : 291-303 damage
Extra A : 216-225 damage
Extra B : 241-251 damage
Extra C : 245-255 damage

100 def, 451 str
Cloud Fox : 68-72 damage

200 def, 465 str
Cloud Fox : 8-12 damage
Leader A : 243-256 damage
Leader B : 158-170 damage
Extra A : 95-104 damage
Extra B : 121-128 damage
Extra C : 123-132 damage

300 def, 473 str
Leader A : 174-190 damage
Leader B : 90-102 damage
Extra A : 33-42 damage
Extra B : 57-68 damage
Extra C : 58-69 damage

360 def, 475 str
Leader A : 131-146 damage
Leader B : 48-59 damage
Extra A : 1-3 damage
Extra B : 18-29 damage
Extra C : 19-29 damage

I'll get more later, 363 is about the max def on my DK so I went 360 for round numbers (146 lv. 50 helm + 94 lv. 90 top + 52 lv. 60 bottom + 51 lv. 90 shoe + 6 lv.45 earring + 2 lv.70 Polearm + 9 lv.25 glove).

Some things to consider:
Pain relievers/Iron Will increases defense.
Threaten/Disorder reduces monster attack.
Could help with investigations.

I'll try some tests, I guess.


Updating as I go:

Lv.30 cleric
0 def, 5 str
Cloud Fox: 103-108
Extra B: 215-225

50 def, 5 str
Cloud Fox: 70-75
Extra B: 176-187

Lv.35 page
0 def, 152 str
Cloud Fox: 130-134
Extra B: 275-286

50 def, 152 str
Cloud Fox: 97-102
Extra B: 232-242

100 def, 152 str
Cloud Fox: 65-70
Extra B: 187-198

149 def, 152 str
Cloud Fox: 33-38
Extra B: 144-155


One thing that sticks out at this point is that with 100 defense, my page takes less damage from Cloud Foxes than your DK.

Yeah, for some reason being very much higher leveled than a monster and low defense is a disadvantage. I'm pretty sure level 1x characters aren't taking 35 per hit from Slimes but my Fighter was. It's so much that the "at most 10% of hp" factor of Powerguard kicks in and it was only taking off 5 damage out of 35, instead of 14.

Hm
Well what I meant is that at 0 defense, I was taking more damage, and at 100 defense, you were.

Ok, my Paladin can go to higher wdef but they mostly do 1 damage :/ but here it is.
lv.121 Paladin

0 wdef, 591 str
Cloud Fox - 121-125

100 wdef, 604 str
Cloud Fox - 62-66
Leader A - 292-307
Leader B - 207-219
Extra A - 149-157
Extra B - 172-183
Extra C - 173-184

200 wdef, 606 str
Cloud Fox - 1-5
Leader A - 226-240
Leader B - 142-153
Extra A - 87-94
Extra B - 110-120
Extra C - 111-121

300 wdef, 624 str
Leader A - 158-175
Leader B - 76-87
Extra A - 21-30
Extra B - 45-56
Extra C - 45-56

401 wdef, 635 str
Leader A - 85-101
Leader B - 3-13

501 wdef, 631 str
Leader A - 20-33

600 wdef
All 1 damage

Your paladin has threaten, right? You could use that to modify the monster's attack while keeping everything else controlled to see how the exponential curve for monster weapon attack is like.

My page has level 3 threaten too, for whatever that counts for.
(It seemed to take off 1-2 damage from Cloud Foxes. I didn't bother with extensive testing, since 3 attack isn't really enough.)

So I was right a long time ago then with the original thread on SW, back when I dabbled with a few ideas at the formula. There is some form of "parity" system, where if your level increases but your defense doesn't, you'll take more damage than a lower levelled character. That's probably how my 4x hunter was taking 170 at Zombies while my friend's 6x sin was taking 210+. Also, I saw with my own eyes, when my girlfriend's cleric hit 33 forever and a day ago, she suddenly started taking 30 more damage from the block golems I was training on with my page at the time, my guess being that 33 is when a new equipment set becomes available.

Maybe we've been going about this the wrong way. Let's get some differing levelled gear (Say, a 60, 70, and 90 set) but scroll the lower ones to make them all approximately the same defense, and then check if the level of your gear has a direct impact. If not, there's still the fact that Levelling plus no defense increase = more damage taken.

"This is stupid" May come to mind for some, "Why should levelling up make me take MORE damage?" Quite simply, I think it was to promote and encourage upgrading. Take a look at the ___less builds some people use and you'll see what I mean. Sauna Robes forever? I'll take a nice piece of armor please.

Edit: One last thing. To really cover all possibilities, let's get more fighters in on this, and look at the extra damage taken while rage is in effect

So I was right a long time ago then with the original thread on SW, back when I dabbled with a few ideas at the formula. There is some form of "parity" system, where if your level increases but your defense doesn't, you'll take more damage than a lower levelled character. That's probably how my 4x hunter was taking 170 at Zombies while my friend's 6x sin was taking 210+. Also, I saw with my own eyes, when my girlfriend's cleric hit 33 forever and a day ago, she suddenly started taking 30 more damage from the block golems I was training on with my page at the time, my guess being that 33 is when a new equipment set becomes available.

Yeah, the class penalty changes each time you can equip new gear.

Maybe we've been going about this the wrong way. Let's get some differing levelled gear (Say, a 60, 70, and 90 set) but scroll the lower ones to make them all approximately the same defense, and then check if the level of your gear has a direct impact. If not, there's still the fact that Levelling plus no defense increase = more damage taken.

I notice no difference due to equip level, the level 60 & 90 female skirts have almost the same defense (52 and 55?) so I have a pair with identical defense that I can swap and nothing changes.

Edit: One last thing. To really cover all possibilities, let's get more fighters in on this, and look at the extra damage taken while rage is in effect

I can't speak for all points, but when I was at 0 base defense and used rage, damage did not change.




Threaten works off the base formula, so you can calculate it like that:
[(w.atk*w.atk) - (w.atk-threaten)*(w.atk-threaten)]/125 = difference, where threaten = number of atk reduced (20 at max).
Simplified (assuming max threaten), this is [8*w.atk-80]/25. For example, with 465 atk (Grims), you get [8*465-80]/25 = 145 reduction. Taking into account Powerguard, this is 87 reduction to the damage you take.



The formula is something like this:
Max (watk^2)/125 - (wdef-k)*something
Min (watk^2)/125*0.945 - (wdef-k)*something
"Something" used to be a consistent 0.43 and k was 0. Now it appears there may be a value of k which depends on your level+class, and "something" is along the lines of (1+str/10000)*([player level - monster level]/100 + 1)*0.5, or something like that.

Not quite. STR seems to make a difference even when defense is 0.

Another thing I'm curious about is magic attacks and how they're calculated. Does each monster skill have a base attack value, and is it in the data? I just checked the database, it doesn't seem to be in Mob.wz.

I'm sure it isn't based directly off monster matk, because of numerous inconsistencies like squid ink shot, different attacks from the same monster (lantern ghosts and kappas come to mind), extra D's overdamaging punch, so on and so forth.