Is there conclusive evidence?

I know elemental multipliers and Charge multipliers are applied before defense is subtracted from the damage range. I'd like to know whether anyone on Basil or SP has found conclusive evidence that any of the following multipliers is applied before or after defense is subtracted: Combo, orb multipliers for Panic/Coma, Berserk, Advanced Combo.

Please post a conclusion ONLY if you have real evidence.

(NOTE: If there's no extracted data from .wz files or whatever, the next best way is probably to go by personal max or min in over 1000 trials with and without Berserk/AC/etc. That is, if one can remember their max or min spread over that many hits. If with the buff, the max or min is more than the max or min without the buff times the power of the buff, for instance more than double with Berserk, then it is applied before defense; if not, then after.)


For the record, I am going to be pissed as HELL if orb multipliers and Combo are applied before defense. An hour of work and now I'd have to totally rework the method for solving exact Crusader DPS figures.

Well Berserk is applied after Defense as far as my observations went.
Guess I'll carry out some more extensive testing.

EDIT: Seems like bad news for ya, buddy.

1.) Calculate min and max damage from the appropriate damage formula (see Weapon/Special Damage Formulas).
2.) Multiply by any applicable skill modifiers (see Modifiers), including elemental bonuses.
3.) Calculate defense (see Defense Reduction).
4.) Select a random number from the damage range (not necessarily integer). Call this X, set it aside for a couple of steps.
5.) Find the appropriate damage multiplier (typically expressed as a percentage in the skill description, which should be converted to decimal). Default attack and spell-based skills count as 100%, or 1.

The skill modifiers in step 2 include: Combo Attack, and I/L/F/H charges. So as long as this order is correct..
Oh and Zerk isn't in the list so it's assumable that it belongs amongst step 5's damage multipliers.

Well Berserk is applied after Defense as far as my observations went.
Guess I'll carry out some more extensive testing.

EDIT: Seems like bad news for ya, buddy.


The skill modifiers in step 2 include: Combo Attack, and I/L/F/H charges. So as long as this order is correct..
Oh and Zerk isn't in the list so it's assumable that it belongs amongst step 5's damage multipliers.

How reliable is that source? That is, from what was it derived?

Also, it doesn't specify Panic/Coma, although that's not really the part that'd annoy me as much as Combo/Advanced Combo. For that part I'm just sort of wondering, in the 3.5 * 1.4 * 2.5 portion, whether the 2.5 is step 2 or 5. 3.5 is evidently step 5 and if my worries that you might be confirming are true, the 1.4 is in step 2.

How reliable is that source? That is, from what was it derived?

I would say it's reliable enough for me, check [thread=855]it[/thread] out yourself.
I know you're not planning to take someone's words for it, but oh well.

 Spoiler

Reversing the formula, we get that he has
(855 *4,0 + 51) * 194 / 100 = 6733
watt = 673300/(855 *4,0 + 51) = 193,9786 -> 194 atk

Add in the 2 % bonus from mw and we get 870 str and 51 dex. Now, add in the 12 attack pot bonus:

(870 * 4,0 + 51) * 206/100 = 7273,86 attack

Assume multiplier last. Then, the max attack he'll be able to deal is equal to

(7273,86 - def * 0,5) * 1,4 * 1,5 * 5,5

Skeleosaurus has 810 wdef. Then
(7273,86 - 405) * 1,4 * 1,5 * 5,5 = 79335,333 max

Now, assume mults first:

(7273,86 * 1,4 * 1,5 - 405) * 5,5 = 81785,583 max

We see that multipliers first is the only possible option.

To prove it for other multipliers, use that method.

I know DKs who claim Berserk is applied before def too. Really though I don't have either class in GMS so I can't test it myself (the only way to be sure) You'd think with the sheer number of heroes there are, their damage formula would be better known than Paladins.

I know DKs who claim Berserk is applied before def too. Really though I don't have either class in GMS so I can't test it myself (the only way to be sure) You'd think with the sheer number of heroes there are, their damage formula would be better known than Paladins.

Well, I'm trying to put together a do-it-yourself guide to calculating DPS for warriors, to post on Basil before I quit it again (you'd be surprised how many people post on there who could follow such a guide). The whole "before/after defense" issue does greatly change results and yet doesn't make the calculating procedure any more difficult for most jobs.

But Combo is another story. If you remember those times that I actually delved into the "obscene" (I think that was your word) calculations for PS/FA/Brandish/Panic cycles with all the double-orb charging probabilities at level 1 ACA... those, as well as the (only slightly easier) Crusader figures would have to be totally reworked if either Combo or the orb multiplier is applied before defense, as Combo at least appears to be. The orb multipliers wouldn't annoy me so much, as those apply only when using Panic/Coma, but the Combo multiplier would cause hideous changes and no hope for a direct percentage figure for DPS calculating (when ignoring defense, I've calculated the average single hit from a max Crusader using Panic immediately upon reaching 5 orbs and PS/FA cycles to be 459.2% when rounded off). I have yet to sit down and try to work it out, but it doesn't look promising. The best I'll probably be able to do is say "use this percent, then add this amount for the overapplication of defense modifiers." Yeah, I don't like it either, especially since the guide is really meant to not be for only maxed skills.

For a good time, try level 1 ACA + SB/FA->Coma cycles (for bonus points, compare 5-6 orb Coma vs. 6 orb Coma DPS - from what I recall, the 6th orb doesn't affect Coma enough to be worth waiting for but who knows) on 3-6 targets...

For a good time, try level 1 ACA + SB/FA->Coma cycles (for bonus points, compare 5-6 orb Coma vs. 6 orb Coma DPS - from what I recall, the 6th orb doesn't affect Coma enough to be worth waiting for but who knows) on 3-6 targets...

That'd be easy, but long. It's the same procedure as PS/FA with using Panic upon reaching 5-6 orbs, just changing the percentages for SB/FA and Coma while maintaining the same probabilities. I'd have to do it three separate times though, once for each number of targets since FA is not distributed evenly. I'd estimate that'd take at maximum 20 minutes.

By the way, I was also wondering if SB's FA is confirmed, because what I know of it implies that whoever contributed it to Russt's thread had it wrong. It should be total 250% on six targets, each target takes 1/3 of the previous target's damage which means its ratio is built on 1 + 3 + 9 + 27 + 81 + 243 = 364, so it should be split into 364 equal "shares" for which target 6 takes one share, target 5 takes 3 shares, target 4 takes 9 shares, target 3 takes 27 shares, target 2 takes 81 shares, target 1 takes 243 shares. That gives ~0.69% for target 6, ~2.06% for target 5, ~6.18% for target 4, ~18.54% for target 3, ~55.63% for target 2, ~166.9% for target 1. Have the new figures been confirmed by screenshots or extracted data?

That'd be easy, but long. It's the same procedure as PS/FA with using Panic upon reaching 5-6 orbs, just changing the percentages for SB/FA and Coma while maintaining the same probabilities. I'd have to do it three separate times though, once for each number of targets since FA is not distributed evenly. I'd estimate that'd take at maximum 20 minutes.

By the way, I was also wondering if SB's FA is confirmed, because what I know of it implies that whoever contributed it to Russt's thread had it wrong. It should be total 250% on six targets, each target takes 1/3 of the previous target's damage which means its ratio is built on 1 + 3 + 9 + 27 + 81 + 243 = 364, so it should be split into 364 equal "shares" for which target 6 takes one share, target 5 takes 3 shares, target 4 takes 9 shares, target 3 takes 27 shares, target 2 takes 81 shares, target 1 takes 243 shares. That gives ~0.69% for target 6, ~2.06% for target 5, ~6.18% for target 4, ~18.54% for target 3, ~55.63% for target 2, ~166.9% for target 1. Have the new figures been confirmed by screenshots or extracted data?

It's a simplification by Nexon: Nexon multiplies by 2 and divide by 3 rather than multiplying by 243 and dividing by 364 when calculating the first Final Attack. Oh and yeah, I contributed to it, it's the first reply in that thread.

So yeah, you're actually not dealing exactly 250%, you're dealing 728/729*250%.

It's a simplification by Nexon: Nexon multiplies by 2 and divide by 3 rather than multiplying by 243 and dividing by 364 when calculating the first Final Attack. Oh and yeah, I contributed to it, it's the first reply in that thread.

So yeah, you're actually not dealing exactly 250%, you're dealing 728/729*250%.

Hmm, I see. So technically my computations have historically been a fraction of a percent off and SB's FA is actually even weaker than I thought it was (albeit by an amount tiny enough to not actually impact any findings).

And it looks like I'm going to have to accept that Combo/ACA is applied before defense, which pisses me off to no end. I'm curious, does anyone know about where Panic's (or Coma's) orb multiplier is counted? For instance, 5 orb Panic with just level 30 Combo has three multipliers: 1.4, 2.5, and 3.5. The 3.5 skill damage is after defense (obviously) and 1.4 looks to be before defense. Where is the 2.5 counted?

What does the 2.5 come from though?

PS: I just realized Stereo is Manny... Wow -revelation-

What does the 2.5 come from though?

PS: I just realized Stereo is Manny... Wow -revelation-

5 orbs.

What does the 2.5 come from though?

PS: I just realized Stereo is Manny... Wow -revelation-

Stereo is also, as far as I know, a redheaded guy. I now wonder whether a correlation exists between being a redheaded guy and having a particularly strong affinity for math and writing skills. (Then again, his is a brighter red like the Weasleys, while mine is very dark blood-red, like Reno in the original FF7. Also, my younger brother, who's also a lighter redhead, has an actual learning disability in math that's cut off college/all non-army options for entering the NYPD.)

And the above is right; Panic/Coma use skill damage * orb multiplier * combo multiplier. At 5-10 orbs the orb multiplier is 2.5. My question is when the 2.5 is applied, as the 3.5 is after defense and the 1.4 is apparently before defense.

My hair is not red like the weasleys', lol. >_>

Ok, totally of topic, but...the pineapple? I seriously thought that he was a she O.O

Ok, totally of topic, but...the pineapple? I seriously thought that he was a she O.O

Off topic still, but here's Stereo.