Crusher with a polearm

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 Stabbing with a Polearm and Slashing with a Spear result in only the bottom 25% of your damage range being used in calculations.

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My damage range pic was outdated, so
3551-7918 for math purposes

If we assume it only uses a certain % of my range, at 170% per hit, we get...
6036 (x2 is 12k, which makes sense) for minimum
and
8000/1.7 = 4705 (not even half of my range - Crusher seems to only use the bottom 4th of my range).

I'll do some Fury calculations later.

 Highest and Lowest I saw

Also posted in the Single Target DPS thread.[/COLOR]

I'm hoping with this thread (and subsequently with my Fury thread when I do some screenshots of my damage with it) will dispel the "Polearms get a BONUS when slashing and a PENALTY when stabbing" rumors. There is no bonus, no penalty. Instead, it simply only calculates using a piece of your damage range. For PA (slash) and Spear (stab), this appears to be the top 3rd. For PA (stab) and Spear (slash), the bottom. I don't ever want to hear "Polearms get a 1.25 multiplier when slashing" or the like again. It is impossible to hit beyond what your damage range would reflect with the skill, or lower than it would reflect. I do not hit 50k Furies when my range says I can only hit 40k.[/COLOR]

Polearm Crusher uses a damage range that is approximately Minimum damage to 3/5ths of your Max damage.

Spear Fury does the same.

On the other hand, Polearm Fury and Spear Crusher use a damage range that is approximately 5/3rds of your Minimum damage to your Max damage.

Polearm Crusher uses a damage range that is approximately Minimum damage to 3/5ths of your Max damage.

Spear Fury does the same.

On the other hand, Polearm Fury and Spear Crusher use a damage range that is approximately 5/3rds of your Minimum damage to your Max damage.

[color="#cc8899"]We were both wrong. It's roughly the bottom 4th and top 4th.
7920-3550 = 4370
4700-3550 = 1150.
4370/1150 = 3.8

So it uses roughly the bottom 25% and top 25%.

Nevermind, works out to about the same mathmatically.
Anyways, I just wanted to have some visual proof the next time some douchebag tries to tell me I'm supposed to get a bonus added to my damage when I swing.[/COLOR]

And the reason of this thread? o-o

I thought it's common sense (not common knowledge) that appropriate animation for appropriate weapon = 100% dmg, conflicting animation + weapon = 60% dmg?

And the reason of this thread? o-o

I thought it's common sense (not common knowledge) that appropriate animation for appropriate weapon = 100% dmg, conflicting animation + weapon = 60% dmg?

[color="#cc8899"]Again, I get told more times than I'd like to count that Slash = bonus damage ( 1.25 modifier is most common phrase) and stab = .75 modifier. I wanted an easy reference I could point to to say "No, pineapple you."

And even what you said is partially wrong. Joetang put it in the easiest to understand format, but basically the top 1/4th (roughly, his is more accurate, but 1/4s are easier to work with) is used for positive animations, bottom 1/4th for negative.[/COLOR]

No, that's not how it works. Both skills have separate base damage ranges. Say you have 1000 STR, 50 DEX, and 150 weapon attack.

Polearm Slash = [5475~7575]
(5.0*1000 + 50) * 1.50 = 7575
(5.0*1000*0.72 + 50) * 1.50 = 5475

Polearm Stab = [3315~4575]
(3.0*1000 + 50) * 1.50 = 4575
(3.0*1000*0.72 + 50) * 1.50 = 3315

Your displayed damage range will be [3315~7575], but this range is not used at all. It's like Lucky Seven, where a completely different base damage is used. The slash range will be used for Fury, and the stab range will be used for Crusher. There is no bottom x% of range / stab = y% of slash stuff going on.

No, that's not how it works. Both skills have separate base damage ranges. Say you have 1000 STR, 50 DEX, and 150 weapon attack.

Polearm Slash = [5475~7575]
(5.0*1000 + 50) * 1.50 = 7575
(5.0*1000*0.72 + 50) * 1.50 = 5475

Polearm Stab = [3315~4575]
(3.0*1000 + 50) * 1.50 = 4575
(3.0*1000*0.72 + 50) * 1.50 = 3315

Your displayed damage range will be [3315~7575], but this range is not used at all. It's like Lucky Seven, where a completely different base damage is used. The slash range will be used for Fury, and the stab range will be used for Crusher. There is no bottom x% of range / stab = y% of slash stuff going on.

[color="#cc8899"]Well, at least my stab/PA was accurate. Hadn't gotten around to testing Fury numbers, so was guesstimating that. Lol.
And I did state that Crusher with PA uses the bottom 25% of your range (3351-47xx for my range above). I'll go through and clean up some of it to make it more clear, but weak animation uses the bottom 25% (stab for PA, slash spear). Nothing I hit was above Min + (Max-Min/4) [/COLOR]

Again, I get told more times than I'd like to count that Slash = bonus damage ( 1.25 modifier is most common phrase) and stab = .75 modifier. I wanted an easy reference I could point to to say "No, pineapple you."

Strange, I've never heard of such absurdities.

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And even what you said is partially wrong. Joetang put it in the easiest to understand format, but basically the top 1/4th (roughly, his is more accurate, but 1/4s are easier to work with) is used for positive animations, bottom 1/4th for negative.[/color]

I did say it was common sense, not a systematically analyzed mechanism.
Truth be told, it's easy to notice that you never do the lower parts of your dmg range when you use mainstream skills.

Initially and intuitively, it's easy to come up with the idea that non-fitting weapon-skill does half the damage potential, so anything along the lines of 50%, 60%, 3/5-5/3, 1/4-1/4-1/4-1/4 work, I guess. The correct case was extracted from the Formula Compilation thread.

and this is why bw pallies and axe heroes are royally boned

I suck at calculating damage using formulas since I was never a Math-whiz (yet I'm majoring in Comp Information Systems, go me! Fuuu---), but I know for a fact that when I played a PADK, I was obsessed over the idea of maxing out Polearm Crusher for multiple reasons. "Stable" damage over Sacrifice. Crusher was on par with an average hit of Sacrifice.

So this is where the extra mastery comes in for DrKs? I had always been confused as to why, even with 80% mastery, our min was barely less than half our max, while heros get more than half of their max in their min with 60%.

I'm almost embarrassed to say that I had been puzzling for so long as to why I wasn't hitting 11k crushers -_- There goes my knowledge of the game.

So if I wanted to calculate average spear crusher damage, what's the real formula I would use? (I'm confused as to where the .72 comes from in Dusk's calculation up there)

So this is where the extra mastery comes in for DrKs? I had always been confused as to why, even with 80% mastery, our min was barely less than half our max, while heros get more than half of their max in their min with 60%.

I'm almost embarrassed to say that I had been puzzling for so long as to why I wasn't hitting 11k crushers -_- There goes my knowledge of the game.

So if I wanted to calculate average spear crusher damage, what's the real formula I would use? (I'm confused as to where the .72 comes from in Dusk's calculation up there)

80% mastery * 0.9 = 0.72

Calculating from scratch (spear crusher or polearm fury):
Max: (DEX * 5 + STR) * ATK / 100 * 1.7 per hit
Min: (DEX * 5 * 0.72 + STR) * ATK / 100 * 1.7 per hit (0.72 is as Fiel ^^^ said)
Avg: (DEX * 5 * 0.86 + STR) * ATK / 100 * 1.7 per hit (0.86 is between 0.72 and 1)
For polearm crusher or spear fury, change DEX * 5 to DEX * 3.

Approximating from damage range, which is more convenient in most cases, do what JoeTang said (the 5/3 of min thing). Or if you only want a rough answer, what MasPan said (25% of range) even though that's not actually how it's calculated.

Alright, thanks. Now I can finally know my real range -_-

Calculating from scratch (spear crusher or polearm fury):
Max: (DEX * 5 + STR) * ATK / 100 * 1.7 per hit
Min: (DEX * 5 * 0.72 + STR) * ATK / 100 * 1.7 per hit (0.72 is as Fiel ^^^ said)
Avg: (DEX * 5 * 0.86 + STR) * ATK / 100 * 1.7 per hit (0.86 is between 0.72 and 1)
For polearm crusher or spear fury, change DEX * 5 to DEX * 3.

Approximating from damage range, which is more convenient in most cases, do what JoeTang said (the 5/3 of min thing). Or if you only want a rough answer, what MasPan said (25% of range) even though that's not actually how it's calculated.

[color="#cc8899"]Eh, for not utilizing any formulas and simply reverse engineering from what I saw, I'd say I came at a pretty close number

Except yes, when you have the formula and want an exact answer, 5/3 min and 3/5 max are more accurate. 25% is pretty useful for on the fly calculations though.[/COLOR]

Polearm Crusher uses a damage range that is approximately Minimum damage to 3/5ths of your Max damage.

Spear Fury does the same.

On the other hand, Polearm Fury and Spear Crusher use a damage range that is approximately 5/3rds of your Minimum damage to your Max damage.

What would happen if you pumped a ton of dex on a warrior so your range was like 1000~1200? Your minimum would exceed your maximum, and vice versa. Would you always hit the same exact damage?

Well, rules of thumb don't work well with odd builds.

The 3/5 thing really only applies to the "random" part of the range - so it would be about 1000-1120 and 1080-1200. Dex adds the same damage for every skill with every weapon, so a pure dex warrior will deal the same percent of their base range with anything.

What would happen if you pumped a ton of dex on a warrior so your range was like 1000~1200? Your minimum would exceed your maximum, and vice versa. Would you always hit the same exact damage?

How the hell can your minimum exceed your maximum?

Dex adds 1 to min and 1 to max.
Str adds 5*0.72 to min and 5 to max for Polearm swing,
3*0.72 to min and 3 to max for Polearm stab.

There's no way to add more to min than max.

How the hell can your minimum exceed your maximum?

Dex adds 1 to min and 1 to max.
Str adds 5*0.72 to min and 5 to max for Polearm swing,
3*0.72 to min and 3 to max for Polearm stab.

There's no way to add more to min than max.

I mean that with the way JoeTang explained it, your minimum and maximum would be modified so that one exceeded the other (whether positively or negatively) the wrong way.

Polearm Crusher uses a damage range that is approximately Minimum damage to 3/5ths of your Max damage.

1000~1200
1200*3/5 = 720
720<1000

On the other hand, Polearm Fury and Spear Crusher use a damage range that is approximately 5/3rds of your Minimum damage to your Max damage.

1000~1200
1000*5/3 = 1667
1667<1200

@ Stereo: so, more roughly, it takes the top 3/5 and bottom 3/5 of your range?

I can't believe a formula that has been around since beta still plagues us.

I mean that with the way JoeTang explained it, your minimum and maximum would be modified so that one exceeded the other (whether positively or negatively) the wrong way.

1000~1200
1200*3/5 = 720
720<1000

1000~1200
1000*5/3 = 1667
1667<1200

@ Stereo: so, more roughly, it takes the top 3/5 and bottom 3/5 of your range?

I can't believe a formula that has been around since beta still plagues us.

It doesn't pineappleing plague us. Do you know why I said 3/5ths and 5/3rds as an approximation? Because I know you can't do
(5 * (Minimum / WA * 100 - DEX) / 3) + DEX) / 100 * WA
in your head and it's pineappleing retarded to rework the formula to find your exact stab/slash damage using your base range when you can just recalculate it by hand with your stats with half steps.