Talk to Nexon about Elemental Wands/Staves

Items depreciate in value all the time. A member of any class buys an item at a particular price and later something better comes along. You sell your original item usually at some loss and get the other item.

How do we know the Luk Bishops did indeed quit to become luckless? How do we know if the majority of the lukless ones now aren't new players or bandwagoners to the class due to its popularity? Also your statement was that the lukless Bishops will quit because they can't use the wands. This implies that they are at least level 130+ in order to use the wands in the first place. I can't see many people and certainly not 80%, quitting a level 130+ character of one of the easiest classes in Maple to level and boss with.

An item only depreciates in value if demand is lower than supply. Nexon controls the supply, and us players move the demand curve. It's not up to us really. Nexon controls prices and drop rates. They can very well make Ele Wands more common from Gach and lower their prices, but that would hurt the current balance of the game both in terms of mage vs. non mage class and Nexon's NX revenues from Gach. I can go deeper into it, but your analysis of their price atm is not deep enough.

I never once mentioned that Luk Bishops quit to become Lukless. Many I know started out with quitting another class and just starting a new Lukless Bishop simply because of the power that Ele Wands give them in terms of leveling speed. I don't see your point though in differentiating why people make Lukless. Right now what's at stake is whether or not they will continue it. Indeed, they have to be level 130 to use the Ele Wands. But level 120-130 for a Lukless Bishop is as easy as 1-2 weeks. If they (Lukless Bishops) continue this trend without an ele wand, and even if with Genesis 30, they will continue to 2 hit KO Skeles all the way until level 160. Now mind you, most Luk Bishops I've known already quit at higher 14x or lower 15x.

Just because you can happily 1 hit KO at 14x-15x with your Ele Wand doesn't mean Lukless Bishops will stand grinding up to 16x and (Luk Bishops 17x) without one to do the same.

And for the record, bossing is a side job for Bishops. They still spend 9/10 of their time training and 1/10 of their time bossing. HT runs are nearly extinct on my server. At CWK, not many Bishops are demanded. Zak runs are also at an all time low on my server and helm buyers are whispering me all day for referrals to other organizers.

An item only depreciates in value if demand is lower than supply. Nexon controls the supply, and us players move the demand curve. It's not up to us really. Nexon controls prices and drop rates. They can very well make Ele Wands more common from Gach and lower their prices, but that would hurt the current balance of the game both in terms of mage vs. non mage class and Nexon's NX revenues from Gach. I can go deeper into it, but your analysis of their price atm is not deep enough.

An item deprecates in price if people think there's a big supply, or if the demand lowers.

An example would be 20 attack maple shields. They deprecated due to the thought supply, but increased whenever people found out the supply was lower than expected.

That being said, whenever a better item is dropped, the demand lowers. Whenever an item of its kind is dropped, the supply lowers.

It's deprecating always, unless it's maple shields :p

An item deprecates in price if people think there's a big supply, or if the demand lowers.

An example would be 20 attack maple shields. They deprecated due to the thought supply, but increased whenever people found out the supply was lower than expected.

That being said, whenever a better item is dropped, the demand lowers. Whenever an item of its kind is dropped, the supply lowers.

It's deprecating always, unless it's maple shields :p

I'm talking about long run.

"Whenever an item of its kind is dropped, the supply lowers." - not if more demand/more players come along needing it. New players are constantly joining the game.

"Whenever an item of its kind is dropped, the supply lowers." - not if more demand/more players come along needing it. New players are constantly joining the game.

That's an event happening regardless of the drop though

Wait a second, actually, clarify on what you mean by "dropped" please. 'cause right now what you're saying makes no sense...if I'm interpreting you to be using the same word in the same context. o_o

If by "dropped" you meant the item is literally discarded from the game, then demand is constant and supply decreases. Then whether or not you take account of the substitution effect, the demand still increases for a good item while supply is lowered -> prices rise.

If by "dropped" you meant the drop rate goes up, then demand is theoretically constant and supply increases. So a good item's demand would theoretically remain constant, but actually decrease due to substitution effect, and you'll get a decrease in demand while supply increases -> prices lower.

The former doesn't happen often. The latter results in price drops only if demand doesn't change. However, because there is a constant flow of new players into the game, that means this demand is always on the increase. That's why there is the substitution effect of existing items that are subject to substitution (their prices lower). In the case of Maple Shields, there hasn't really been any substitutes, that's why their prices are still rather constant, if not going up (I remember 20 atk shields being 700 mil 1 year ago, but now 1 bil). For things like bows and weapons like Devil's Sunrise, where Nexon is constantly pumping out events that give better items as substitutions (Stonetooth), this latter effect takes place and prices drop.

However, we're talking about the context of elemental wands. This is similar to that of Maple Shields. There is no substitution effect. So you got your basic supply and demand rules to follow only.

If more Bishops quit or if even less will be created thereof due to "fixing" the attributes of these wands (I dare anyone argue with me on this fact!), demand of these weapons will decrease, so you'll initially see a decrease in their prices. However, if more Bishops quit or less are created/motivated (you can't argue against this, if you remove a factor of motivation for a Bishop, there WILL be less of them, just as we witnessed 1.5 years ago on the lack of priests before Ele Wands and 4th jobs came out), it means less leveling and less players will stay in the game as well, resulting in lack of Gaching and a lowered supply, and prices will rise again. So in the long run, unless the drop rates themselves change, assuming all other things equal and obeying common sense, prices will be relatively the same.

For those of you who don't know or don't believe what I'm taking about in terms of lack of Priests 1.5 years ago, ask around some old timers. Ask the veteran Bishops how many of them enjoyed being heal slaves and just healing at bosses. Ask the veteran trainers how difficult it was to get a Priest at Grims or Hime. Or if you are a veteran trainer or Bishop reading this, think back again and ask yourself.

Indeed, Genesis opened the gate to Bishops. But these "glitched" Elemental Wands widened that gate. All I'm saying here is to let's not take that widening for granted, because you might be the next person begging for HS or a fast and effective training partner if that gate were to narrow again.

draconius, would you care to explain, in terms of usefullness, how arch mages come anywhere close to bishops. Assuming of course neither has an elemental weapon. I wasn't here to point out every single significant imbalance, since there are many. But one thing I dislike here is how you've said that since these weapons are so rare, it really doesn't make a difference who gets them since its more of a luxury. Well guess what, it shouldn't be a luxury, it should be built right into our skills, not in the form of a hard to get weapon. This is why I'm so strongly for the -75% and ticked that nexon turned this into a moneymaking endeaver whent here are so many other things they can do to make money that don't involve making things unfairly difficult for a particular class. I'm not deluded in any way (plus 99k was an exaggeration, you don't even need 99k to 1hko the strongest training mobs), I just look at things differently than you and I guess that I feel that you're somehow underestimating the usefulness and purpose of being a bishop.

If it were built into your skills, then I will sing Hallelujahs for a day because finally the QQ will stop about this issue. The fact is, its perfectly viable for a mage to obtain the BONUS but not the STATS. This is why Ele wands 5-8 are a luxury. Lukless Archmage that doesn't have 1Bill to burn? Go right on ahead and buy Ele wands 1-4. I understand how many people can rightly point that bishops buy Ele wands 5-8, but Ele wands 1-4 are not nearly as common among bishops/priests because...well, they're kinda too expensive compared to their Lvl 64 counterparts. People are so whimpy that most Ele wands 1-4 barely break 100stats, whereas Maple weapons can break that barrier and more and command half the price. If it weren't meant to be that 5-8 were luxuries, then 1-4 would simply not exist. Ele wand effects are nearly useless until archmage anyways, and so it couldn't possibly be that the intention was to up the 3rd job community (well, it was in JMS, but for purposes here pertaining to the date that these were released in GMS, there is an ulterior motivation). Archmages might not all be able to spend 1Bill for a wand 5-8, but it sure seems like a lot of them can shell out 200Mill for a 1-4. 5-8 are as much luxuries in other versions of the game as they are in ours, and the format in which JMS permits these items to drop from monsters suggests this as well (all of them drop except for 5-8). If archmages deserve this as a sign of balance, then they can still get that with the low level ele wands while the high level ones remain a luxury.

Usefulness is an arbitrary term, and is not pertinent to how we fix these classes. Nexon clearly wants Archmages to be stronger, and I quite frankly don't care that archmages could potentially outdamage bishops at Skelegons (although this is likely giving them pause as to prevent AMP from going up to 150%), but I'm literally hearing nary a peep from Paladins and Shadowers on this issue. Shadowers are overshadowed by NLs in so many different ways that it would be a comedy to compare the much more relative balance in the mage class with that. Paladins have a lol prefix almost reflexively attached to their name. Furthermore, my point is that this is almost certainly not a way to balance the archmage class and shouldn't be about balancing the archmage class, at least the way it is implemented. There are far too few ele wands/staves out there for this to be considered "balancing", and the fact that KMS has been upping AMP dmg (notice that ele wands came out like 2 years ago in JMS) is indicative that there is little correlation between the two.

Can't you just leave it at the fact that all Maple equips/items deprecate over time, and very rarely fluctuate to a higher price (usually in the case of an event, etc that requires a certain limited item. E.g. furies and black crystals).

The older the server after the prices settle from opening, the lower the prices will go on everything, and they will continue to deprecate with the exception of a few commodities, and you should know what they are.

Can't you just leave it at the fact that all Maple equips/items deprecate over time, and very rarely fluctuate to a higher price (usually in the case of an event, etc that requires a certain limited item. E.g. furies and black crystals).

The older the server after the prices settle from opening, the lower the prices will go on everything, and they will continue to deprecate with the exception of a few commodities, and you should know what they are.

Yes, but do they depreciate rapidly like what we're talking about? Over time, people accept that some of the value of their items just goes away because they become more plentiful or because people are strong enough/gach enough to get said item. However, if bishops were to incur reductions, the market would be flooded with weapons. While you could expect a normal weapon to depreciate by maybe as much as 10-20%, these wands will end up on the market depreciating in excess of 50% in likely less than 2 weeks. That isn't something people are just going to blindly "accept", no matter how you put it.

Yes, but do they depreciate rapidly like what we're talking about? Over time, people accept that some of the value of their items just goes away because they become more plentiful or because people are strong enough/gach enough to get said item. However, if bishops were to incur reductions, the market would be flooded with weapons. While you could expect a normal weapon to depreciate by maybe as much as 10-20%, these wands will end up on the market depreciating in excess of 50% in likely less than 2 weeks. That isn't something people are just going to blindly "accept", no matter how you put it.

This is true. But I guess my point is, what are you going to do about it? There's always going to be extenuating circumstances beyond your control, obviously, that will change the odds for you.

While you could expect a normal weapon to depreciate by maybe as much as 10-20%, these wands will end up on the market depreciating in excess of 50% in likely less than 2 weeks. That isn't something people are just going to blindly "accept", no matter how you put it.

Just like the market didn't accept Genesis 30 dropping to 100m practically overnight? Or chaos scrolls? or 4 attack pacs?

Nearly every patch Nexon's done something that caused an extremely valuable commodity to become dirt cheap, even if only temporarily.

People don't have an option beyond accepting it. The nature of the game is for things to shift. Your shiny rare and wonderful item today may be tomorrow's Under the Maple Tree.

Just like the market didn't accept Genesis 30 dropping to 100m practically overnight? Or chaos scrolls? or 4 attack pacs?

Nearly every patch Nexon's done something that caused an extremely valuable commodity to become dirt cheap, even if only temporarily.

People don't have an option beyond accepting it. The nature of the game is for things to shift. Your shiny rare and wonderful item today may be tomorrow's Under the Maple Tree.

And you'll notice that, despite saying that Ele wand 3 would be coming from the second box event, it really didn't. This is a Nexon cash cow, and I would even find leech being associated with this. You don't touch it the way you do with other things. Chaos scrolls were never really used much since they were just that rare and they were a consumable commodity. PACs have long since outlived their usefulness as a cash cow as well. Genesis wasn't even in Gach in the first place, so cashing in on that made sense in the long run since the market demand would not only kill hackers in trying to sell them but profit from the enormous demand.

With ele wands, none of those qualifications are met. They've only been on the market for a year, and while a 2ATTK PAC used to cost 250M when it first came out and indeed for a year afterwards, it depreciated to some 20-30M by late last yaer. 4ATTK was some 500-700M when it first came out, and again, the depreciation PRIOR to the box event no longer justified protections against using it in an event. With Ele wands, their initial cost is so high that it can be milked for much longer than these things. Since bishops and archmages sell leech to the population as a whole (*Note, PLEASE don't start a leech discussion, this is just a point to be made), the mage equip economy is much more expensive, which lures others to gach to sell to it. Even NLs, unless they constantly HT (again, selling a service) or merchant or buy gach, will often be funded by a mage powerhouse. This is an enormous draw that has lasting implications that Nexon understands.

An item only depreciates in value if demand is lower than supply. Nexon controls the supply, and us players move the demand curve. It's not up to us really. Nexon controls prices and drop rates. They can very well make Ele Wands more common from Gach and lower their prices, but that would hurt the current balance of the game both in terms of mage vs. non mage class and Nexon's NX revenues from Gach. I can go deeper into it, but your analysis of their price atm is not deep enough.

I never once mentioned that Luk Bishops quit to become Lukless. Many I know started out with quitting another class and just starting a new Lukless Bishop simply because of the power that Ele Wands give them in terms of leveling speed. I don't see your point though in differentiating why people make Lukless. Right now what's at stake is whether or not they will continue it. Indeed, they have to be level 130 to use the Ele Wands. But level 120-130 for a Lukless Bishop is as easy as 1-2 weeks. If they (Lukless Bishops) continue this trend without an ele wand, and even if with Genesis 30, they will continue to 2 hit KO Skeles all the way until level 160. Now mind you, most Luk Bishops I've known already quit at higher 14x or lower 15x.

Just because you can happily 1 hit KO at 14x-15x with your Ele Wand doesn't mean Lukless Bishops will stand grinding up to 16x and (Luk Bishops 17x) without one to do the same.

And for the record, bossing is a side job for Bishops. They still spend 9/10 of their time training and 1/10 of their time bossing. HT runs are nearly extinct on my server. At CWK, not many Bishops are demanded. Zak runs are also at an all time low on my server and helm buyers are whispering me all day for referrals to other organizers.

I think the others explained what I was trying to get at with the depreciation angle. When you change equips to something more beneficial to you, you usually end up selling what you had before for less than you bought it. Yes there are exceptions but the former circumstance is more prevalent and is something we just accept and move on with.

I made the differentiation between luck and luckless because you said the luckless Bishops will quit if the wands are removed. Obviously the luck Bishops out there are at a disadvantage compared to the luckless but they still carry on and do not quit. I was saying if anyone should have quit already between the two it would have been the Luck Bishops.

Even if bossing is 1/10 of what bishops do with their time it doesn't deny the fact that it is easier to get into a boss run as a Bishop than more than half the other classes in the game. The fact that they are easy to level holds as well.

Just to let you know I only began 1 hitting skele, barely, at 16x with an elemental weapon. I still 1-2 hit at 17x.

I think the others explained what I was trying to get at with the depreciation angle. When you change equips to something more beneficial to you, you usually end up selling what you had before for less than you bought it. Yes there are exceptions but the former circumstance is more prevalent and is something we just accept and move on with.

I made the differentiation between luck and luckless because you said the luckless Bishops will quit if the wands are removed. Obviously the luck Bishops out there are at a disadvantage compared to the luckless but they still carry on and do not quit. I was saying if anyone should have quit already between the two it would have been the Luck Bishops.

Even if bossing is 1/10 of what bishops do with their time it doesn't deny the fact that it is easier to get into a boss run as a Bishop than more than half the other classes in the game. The fact that they are easy to level holds as well.

Just to let you know I only began 1 hitting skele, barely, at 16x with an elemental weapon. I still 1-2 hit at 17x.

I don't think I'm going to argue for the deprecation thing at all anymore, because we've seen already in the last year, Ele Wand prices have not been going down as prices have for other equips. It's a given that price deprecation occurs in general, but with no substitution and a constantly increasing supply and demand for such items such as ele wands and existing scrolled Maple Shields, the ele wand does not fit into this deprecation scheme at this precise moment.

And I want to point out that the truth is that, at least on my server, you find less and less of luk Bishops remaining, while it IS the Lukless ones that still carry on.

Bishops do get into bosses easier, but I assure you that people do not make Bishops to boss and to be heal/HS slaves.

The Bishop bandwagon started when 4th job was released and when people saw the power of Genesis. That bandwagon increased even further when people realized the power that Bishops can unleash with these lukless ele wands giving no penalty. So you got an increase in the number of both luk and lukless Bishops with the release of 4th job and ele wands. But let's look at which still remain late on in the game. Look around and see how many luk Bishops you find who are over 15x or 16x. And look around and see how many lukless Bishops are still around who are over 15x or 16x. And look who's holding the Ele Wands. Is it not suffice evidence for us to say that the luk Bishop population has long died and is still on the ever decline due to their nature of leveling slower and quitting sooner?

This has been happening for a while now from what I observe, at least in my server. Also in Broa FM, you hardly ever see any regular Luk mage equipments AT ALL anymore, from gloves to overalls to hats to weapons.

So you got an increase in the number of both luk and lukless Bishops with the release of 4th job and ele wands. But let's look at which still remain late on in the game. Look around and see how many luk Bishops you find who are over 15x or 16x. And look around and see how many lukless Bishops are still around who are over 15x or 16x. And look who's holding the Ele Wands.

That's a general problem with the class, though... when it was just Black Umbrella, there were some lukless. When the Llamas came out, there were lots of lukless. When the level 64 weapons (80 base, require 4 luk) came out - they have a 60 point advantage over normal weapons. There's no way to match that - the only luk mage on the old "top matk" lists had a perfect 7x30% staff, and multiple other perfect gears, while the lukless all around them were not near perfect. So anyone with normal luk was resetting down, or they just didn't care about damage - the elemental weapons are not necessary for that trend, they just increase the amount lukless overpower normal luk chars.

That's a general problem with the class, though... when it was just Black Umbrella, there were some lukless. When the Llamas came out, there were lots of lukless. When the level 64 weapons (80 base, require 4 luk) came out - they have a 60 point advantage over normal weapons. There's no way to match that - the only luk mage on the old "top matk" lists had a perfect 7x30% staff, and multiple other perfect gears, while the lukless all around them were not near perfect. So anyone with normal luk was resetting down, or they just didn't care about damage - the elemental weapons are not necessary for that trend, they just increase the amount lukless overpower normal luk chars.

Actually since luk mages get a whopping 37 extra stats out of ZHelm + HT Pendant, 4 stats from base luk, and some 10-20 stats from being able to use higher level class gear they're really not far behind the level 64 weapons at all. It's the Ele wands that break the balance completely.

Most of the bishop population likely won't quit if this change was implemented. But just because they don't quit, does it mean that it's a good thing to implement? Does it mean that a large number of bishops will just "shrug it off"? Does it mean that it won't dissatisfy most of the bishop population?

I think it's clear that neckson america decided to implment the wands/staves the way that they are in-game now. The elemental weapons lack the "proper names" and desriptions found in other versions of maplestory, and people in-game can sometimes not fully underatand the elemental boosts for each because of that. They once said that different versions of maple can have different things in response to an elemental weapons ticket, implying that the way they work now is intended. The fact that they changed the weapons from having no elemental properties at all to boosting archmages relatively soon after their release show they have alreadly thoroughly thought about this issue before. neckson america likes being different, from their trademark bad customer service, to their awkward advertisements for maplestory, to different namings for things in-game, to how the elemental weapons work in-game now.

Another thing to note is that is that the weapons have respectively been like this in-game for a long time now (over a year?). There's valid reasons for this, and it would be irresponsible for neckson to suddenly alter how the weapons work in-game. There's a lot of unbalanced things in this game, but neckson doesn't change them suddenly, because they know the people in-game have gradually come to adapt to these imbalances. It's like how most skill updates are based upon improving "underdog" classes, instead of nerfing widely-agreed-on-overpowered classes.

The main motive driving you to convince others and neckson to change them seems to be for "class justice". I'd like to point out this proposal can "somewhat" create more balance, but it doesn't really fix much class balance. It is a unneccessary change that will simply make a sizeable portion of the maplestory population pissed. I'd also like to point out that rather, the lukless wands shouldn't exist. If they had never existed, the gap between luk and lukless magicians would be closer (although still more favoured towards the lukless side). If they had never existed, it would create more balance than this proposal could ever accomplish. If lukless wands never existed, than bishops wouldn't be using elemental weapons in the first place, even without the 75% penalty (other than for looks). But this would probably piss the maple population even more. And reduce gach sales. Another thing is I think the magician class is overpowered anyway. Bishops because they simply are, and the enormous boost given to archmages by the elemental weapons. Archmages' exclusion out of bosses is a flaw in game mechanics, and bishops could've had a 20% decrease in genesis power in return for fulfulling more of their support role. But whatever.

Conclusion: Leave the weapons the way they are in-game now, because most of the maple population has already adapted to the fact that they lack the 75% multiplier penalty for bishops. neckson has valid motives for how they currently work in-game: to generate the most income, and to please the most number of people. "But look at how often debates like this are made!" Does changing the way these weapons work please more people, or cause fustration and more debate?

If they do implement the penalty in-game, then they should also implement the proper names and descriptions for these elemental weapons.

Actually since luk mages get a whopping 37 extra stats out of ZHelm + HT Pendant, 4 stats from base luk, and some 10-20 stats from being able to use higher level class gear they're really not far behind the level 64 weapons at all. It's the Ele wands that break the balance completely.

You're not taking into account how cheap (for the weapons anyway - eg. maple shine wand/wisdom staff vs. doomsday staff) and readily available lukless gear is. Also, lukless gear lasts "forever", while the luk mage will have to constantly change equips every so often from leveling. Another thing that bothered me when i had a luk priest was that fact that the maple weapons also had hp and mp bonuses, and that lukless had more mp.

Actually since luk mages get a whopping 37 extra stats out of ZHelm + HT Pendant, 4 stats from base luk, and some 10-20 stats from being able to use higher level class gear they're really not far behind the level 64 weapons at all. It's the Ele wands that break the balance completely.

The rest I can somewhat agree with but this (bolded) isn't true. With that same 37 stats the lukless can equip level 38 overall (4 int instead of the ~9 stats of a level 80-90), and all the other "best" gear is about equal to lukless. 8 matk Flamekeeper Cordon, 5 int YSS, and of course Zakum helmet. It ends up with about a 5-6 int advantage, assuming equal scrolling opportunity (which considering the items in question may not be true).

The rest I can somewhat agree with but this (bolded) isn't true. With that same 37 stats the lukless can equip level 38 overall (4 int instead of the ~9 stats of a level 80-90), and all the other "best" gear is about equal to lukless. 8 matk Flamekeeper Cordon, 5 int YSS, and of course Zakum helmet. It ends up with about a 5-6 int advantage, assuming equal scrolling opportunity (which considering the items in question may not be true).

Eh, high level mage shoes are better and cheaper than 5 int YSS. I have level 70 shoes that add 6 stats, you could easily get 8 stats with level 80-90 shoes. Throw Maker into the equation and it can easily be that 20 stat advantage over LUKless.

Hmm, I think people has skewed the actual purpose of why these wands exist.

When these were created in JMS, the main skills at the time were Fire/Ice Demon, Elquines/Ifrit/Bahamut, and Paralyze/Chain Lightning/Angel Ray.

Now, suppose Nexon Japan asked themselves this: "If a Bishop were to equip these, how much of an increase would they recieve?" When they did the math, they found out that Angel Ray slightly out-damaged Paralyze and demolished Chain Lightning (with 135% Amp, w/ and w/o the corresponding Elemental Weapon, holy-weak; and of course, not taking speed into account); due to a higher spell base, the result is higher matk:damage output. After this realization, they put a 25% reduction to all non-aligning elements of the wand.

In a bossing standpoint, the Elemental Wands do almost absolutely nothing for Bishops in terms of damage output, but helps immensely for Arch Mages.

(Keep in mind that AMs/Bishops in JMS didn't train with Meteor/Blizzard/Genesis back then due to hyperinflation, lack of viable pots, and severely overpriced [Power] Elixirs. The Elemental Weapons also came out before Time Temple and the KMS skill changes. I really doubt Nexon Japan actually thought about how well these weapons would mold in the game in the future though, as we can tell now about our current dilemma.)

Umm no there is no dilemna there, it's only here for a reason specific to our version. I would be saying the same thing even if ultimates didn't exist, the point is that they were made specifically for one class in order to balance things. And yes, usefullness and being a practical class are important draconius, I can't logically see how leaving one class inferior in 9/10 ways is arbitrary.

And plus, just because other classes have issues too doesn't mean that we shouldn't have ours fixed in some way. Even though we can never fix things, we can make them better. And this rarity of elemental weapons is due to the obnoxiously expanded market that nexon created for them, that's what is causing them to be less effective as a fix.