Lloyd Korn shuts down MapleStory hackers.

I think this thread needs a lock now...

There's no flaming or rule-breaking (AFAIK). Why would you want to lock such a spirited discussion? Like it or not, these are issues that affect you. You're welcome to avoid the thread if it bothers you.

How is having a section on the forum board that contains nothing but help posts, how-to, and downloads of modifications to the client not targeting?

Not talking about the software "Cheat Engine"

Downloads of modifications to the client is the only thing on there that falls into a different domain than speech. Those are obviously infringing copyright.

The solution is not "site gets taken entirely down" because of that. The solution is remove the offending files because other than that, there's nothing illegal about that section. I don't support the copyright infringing files at all.

He so adamant in his belief that Nexon is operating outside of the law. Yet he has nothing to prove it mean while were pointing out every reason that justifies Nexon's actions.

I also think it's time to lock this thread.

Nothing to prove it... except the fact that the Terms of Service have nothing to do with the DMCA and code is protected speech? ????

There is no justification for their extraneous actions. I've never once, in this thread, said that they weren't right about demanding the infringing files be removed. That's not all they're demanding.

They demand that the site goes down, that Cheat Engine stops distribution, and because their Terms of Service say so, you can't discuss hacking on a website that hasn't even agreed to them.

Downloads of modifications to the client is the only thing on there that falls into a different domain than speech. Those are obviously infringing copyright.

The solution is not "site gets taken entirely down" because of that. The solution is remove the offending files because other than that, there's nothing illegal about that section. I don't support the copyright infringing files at all.

Yet their was clearly a section that supported this. And apparently their was some notice given out before. They even had off-site links.

It wasn't Nexon's doing to shut him down, his server provider did it for them because they didn't want to deal with it. And frankly, if you are a large server provider, it's better to pull it off up front, then deal with the situation.

Yet their was clearly a section that supported this. And apparently their was some notice given out before. They even had off-site links.

It wasn't Nexon's doing to shut him down, his server provider did it for them because they didn't want to deal with it. And frankly, if you are a large server provider, it's better to pull it off up front, then deal with the situation.

Which is my entire point! If this goes unchecked by the power of law instead of checked like it should be, you can basically waive (lol u c wut i did dere) your rights goodbye.

This has a chilling effect on free speech. For more information on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect_(term)

Don't you think gaming corporations would love a scenario where they can legally stop any negative discussion about their products? It might not end like that with Nexon, but I guarantee some company down the line will pick up the slack. Censorship starts with unpopular speech (e.g. talking about hacking, very few want hacks).

If hosts drop you at the first sign of a DMCA, exactly what is the incentive to allow anything that could even be misconstrued as violating copyright? You know, like Windows Calculator. Images of how to use Windows Calculator. You really have to consider the full range of implications. Again, I implore you to look at: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/ to get an idea of what kinds of things are included in the scope of speech.

The host is wrong in this case, it makes me very angry. They should have at least challenged some of the articles and demanded proof of copyright for Cheat Engine and rejected all the "Terms of Service violating" threads. But the fact is that they didn't. That doesn't bring Nexon into the legal clear. Two wrongs do not compose a right.

Also linked from the DeCSS gallery, on the DeCSS Haiku site: http://www.loyalty.org/~schoen/haiku.html

It's sad to see much of the self-identified "creative community" fail to support intellectual freedom here. Particularly galling is the short-sighted proprietary attitude toward the First Amendment expressed by some people in the culture industries, who suggested in Corley and many other contexts that the First Amendment smiles on the culture industries' expression and overlooks harm to other people's expression. They refer to themselves, but not their critics (and not Jon Johansen, not me, not any Gallery of CSS Descramblers contributor, not any programmer) as creative. We know free speech, the industries seem to say, because we practice it, and free speech is our speech, the First Amendment is our amendment. After all, how could artists possibly be censors?

As Cindy Cohn says, we don't mind if the movie studios use the protection of the First Amendment, "we'd just like them to share".

Looking back at the Corley case, I am frustrated. I am frustrated not only that we lost, not only that the censorship continues, and not only that allies of the studio plaintiffs keep on trivializing programmers' speech rights. More than anything, I'm frustrated that public opinion mainly dismisses what happened as a matter of pursuing hackers. Public opinion says the hackers got what was coming to them, because they were hackers. The court of public opinion, with some exceptions, seems to be affirming the Second Circuit.

Sound familiar?

The whole supporting Nexon argument is somewhat akin to me being a gun, using it to shoot people, then having people go after the gun seller/manufacturer for my actions.

I support Nexon wholeheartedly in attempting to overcome the hacking issues, but the process they are taking seems to be the easy way out. Deterring people from hacking (permanent bans, active GM presence, etc) would do more. In this instance, a pissed off programmer will just move hosts, release more hacks and repeat the process again and again.

~double posted~ Delete please

Court has reconvened. There's already another forum up elsewhere that Nexon probably will have a harder time getting into.

I knew this would happennnnn...

Perhaps one day they will also sense how much more difficult it is to merchant without hackers inflating the economy...hm...I'm feeling that already. Is it a coincidence that they are being massively permanently banned? :o

Hackers that are seen by a GM are permanently banned. End of story. This is as of late, obviously. In the past, people would get temporarily banned by a GM if they were seen. The difference now seems to be that hackers are having too much of an effect on the game. They are dominating the economy because of their increase in supply, and in some cases, they are ruining gameplay for others. Hackers are overdoing it, and therefore screwing themselves over. GM's seem to have given up on just giving people warnings or temporary bans. Every ban given by a GM is a permanent ban. Now you ask how some people get temporary bans? The answer to that is autobans. When people would use hacks incorrectly or the hacks were made incorrectly, the player would be autobanned for a certain amount of time depending on the hacks they were using. (Pretty much only 24 hour bans and 30 day bans were given by the system). I just wanted to clear up the confusion with bans.

The real reason Ilbis don't cost as much as they used to is because they're not the best star anymore.

This is not fully true at all. This all goes back to economics. Let us have a small lesson.

 Spoiler

Supply = UP, Demand = SAME, Prices = DOWN
Supply = UP, Demand = UP, Prices = SAME
Supply = UP, Demand = DOWN, Prices = WAY DOWN

[COLOR="Blue"]Anyway, if you are still confused about the economic facts I just stated, take a class or read more about it. It all makes sense and is very simple.
Stereo, what you say is not true. The fact that crystal ilbis and balanaced fury stars do exist is significant and does affect prices slightly, but that is not the reason for the dramatic deflation of ilbis.
The moment crystal ilbis or balanced furies start to drop from a monster or a boss, then you will be right. Then ilbis will go way down in price for your reason. Until then, it is due to the dramatic increase in supply.[/COLOR]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerman
Private servers affect me in no way so I really do not care about them.

Incorrect. Even if you've never played on one, apparently they're "doing so much damage to Nexon" (even though this does not logically make sense) that Nexon is struggling to become, you know, a company that cares. That does affect every user playing the game. Whether or not that's a positive thing is another matter entirely.

I'll be honest, I have played on one to try it out. Nexon's attempt to "care" is not only due to private servers, but also to the hackers. In my opinion, Nexon should not care about Private Servers as much as they do. Their MapleStory is not directly affected by Private Servers. In the VERY long run, maybe they will see a VERY slight decrease in profits. But honestly, is it really worth all of the trouble they are making? No.

Originally Posted by Pokerman
He is finding a new host for CEF in another country that does not have the DMCA laws.

Lloyd Korn attacked CEF by threatening the host, which make the hoster panic and stop hosting for Dark Byte.

Precisely my point, this is chilling free speech. That is not the intent of the DMCA nor is it a proper application of said law. The host is a peach for crumbling so easily without proof of copyright on certain articles (because you CANNOT use the Terms of Service as an argument in a DMCA complaint, that's a completely separate matter from copyright) such as Cheat Engine. They do not hold the rights to Cheat Engine. Nothing they hold the rights to is directly affected by Cheat Engine. Cheat Engine is a general purpose application that does not include any of Nexon's proprietary material - modified or otherwise.

I agree. The hoster should not have given in so easily to the threats made by Lloyd Korn. But the problem is that the hoster did give in. So now DarkByte is stuck finding a new hoster anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte
Great for him!

Now he can express his freedom of expression somewhere were it wont' affect my freedom of expression.

Cheat Engine has nothing to do with your freedom of expression, nor does DarkByte. Neither is used to make MapleStory hacks. :<

Wrong. Cheat Engine is indeed used to make MapleStory hacks. It is not just used to USE the hacks, but also to make them. I did some research, and I have compiled some interesting information regarding the creation of memory hacks.

 Spoiler

- Cheat Engine (by DarkByte), or really any UCE (Undetected Cheat Engine) can be used to make MapleStory memory hacks.

- What they pretty much do is connect MapleStory.exe to the Cheat Engine, and they can see all of the memory information.

- They then scan some old AoB's (Array of Bytes) and change the old ones in the hacking program to the new AoB's because they come up when they do a memory view.

- Essentially, memory hacks (the most intense hacks out there) can only be made using a UCE. Most people seem to use Cheat Engine by DarkByte. Therefore, it is used to make MapleStory hacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkByte
Just to inform you, that the old cheat engine site will be back eventually (can take a few days or few weeks)

Also, there won't be a maple section anymore. Just to clear that up.

This definitely won't stop them, though. People are still trying to open MS-related topics. :<

Most users from CEF have already moved over to NexonKiller. By the way, NexonKiller changed their URL. So hacks are still around. And mostly all of the users from CEF have moved to nexonkiller. Therefore, hacks are not done.

Cheat Engine does not infringe on anyone's rights and Nexon is, indeed, overstepping the boundary of the law. How it's used might infringe Nexon's rights, but that's a separate issue entirely that has nothing to do with DarkByte.

I could not agree more. You are exactly correct here. DarkByte has nothing to do with the way that CheatEngine is used. It is simply a program that is not written maliciously. Sure, you can do "malicious" things with it, but that is not it's original intent. It is all about how the user decides to put it to use.

Yet their was clearly a section that supported this. And apparently their was some notice given out before. They even had off-site links.

No, you're wrong. DarkByte made the forum name "MapleStory" for the MapleStory section. Nowhere in it did it say anything about hacks. Users took it upon themselves to post hacks and links and such. The forum has nothing to do with that.

=loddlaen]I support Nexon wholeheartedly in attempting to overcome the hacking issues, but the process they are taking seems to be the easy way out. Deterring people from hacking (permanent bans, active GM presence, etc) would do more. In this instance, a pissed off programmer will just move hosts, release more hacks and repeat the process again and again.

Problem here is that as long as the source of hacks still exists, AKA the MapleStory section of CEF, more and more MapleStory players will become hackers and the moment someone gets banned, they will just start over. It is a never-ending cycle, and there is no ideal answer. If you take away the source of the hacks, they will just make a new one and continue hacking. If you ban the hackers, they will just keep hacking on new characters. There seems to be no way out.

I hope you wouldn't mind sharing how a generic, non-user modded (at which it would be out of DarkByte's hands anyway) Cheat Engine version 5.4 can be used to hack MapleStory. I mean, if you did your research and all. (Because that IS what I was talking about TT. You shouldn't say I'm wrong then turn around and agree with the same point written a different way. It's very confusing.

Perhaps in theory you can make hacks with it, but Cheat Engine is detected, so even hooking to MapleStory disconnects you, so that's kind of a moot point. :<
The source code has to be modified by another user (and DarkByte surely doesn't make it undetected) to make it undetected by changing some strings around. Again, out of the hands of the site owner. You can't use your loophole logic to say Cheat Engine BY DarkByte is used to make MapleStory hacks directly, because it's not. Using that logic, I can say any standard development environment can be used to make private server source code and/or hacks.

And yes, under the MapleStory section on CEF, it clearly said, "For MapleStory talks and hacks". So yes, he did imply what it was for.



They have moved somewhere else besides Nexon Killer but that's not really surprising I guess and shouldn't be discussed any further...

This has more-or-less degraded into a circular discussion about the same thing, with neither side really bringing anything new to the table.