Lloyd Korn shuts down MapleStory hackers.

Mondays' post about the Economy should literally be a sticky. You've pretty much answered most questions that have been lingering in my head for so long. A HUGE ty. I'm sure others will ty as well. ^_^

Nothing one can't find in ECON101. And for me, that stuff is just common sense.

Good reminder nonetheless however.

Nothing one can't find in ECON101. And for me, that stuff is just common sense.

Good reminder nonetheless however.

I haven't taken Gen ed's in a while.... T.T

But nontheless it's very informative.

You might choose to express yourself with a paintbrush, you might choose to express yourself with T-shirts, you might choose to express yourself with music, I express myself with code. There's no difference. It doesn't matter what the code does. It matters that it's speech.

It's not ok to express yourself by shooting people and having their initials spell the message... It's not ok to spraypaint graffiti on everything...

"free speech" doesn't cover anything that harms other people or property. By impacting Nexon's available service hacks do just that and Nexon is justified in taking action against them.

It's not ok to express yourself by shooting people and having their initials spell the message... It's not ok to spraypaint graffiti on everything...

"free speech" doesn't cover anything that harms other people or property. By impacting Nexon's available service hacks do just that and Nexon is justified in taking action against them.

Having guns as a form of expression is not illegal. Shooting people is. Shooting cans is not.

Writing code as a form of expression is not illegal. Using it for copyright infringement is. Using it for cheating in a single player game is not.

You want to come up with a better example?

I don't think I need to, that already proves my point. Code is being used for something harmful, therefore it is not covered by free speech, therefore Nexon can ask for it to be removed..


Also: Yes, guns are illegal here and in many places. Not just for shooting people, in any form.

Having guns as a form of expression is not illegal. Shooting people is. Shooting cans is not.

Writing code as a form of expression is not illegal. Using it for copyright infringement is. Using it for cheating in a single player game is not.

You want to come up with a better example?

You forget , MS isn't a single player game. And expression comes at a limit. The minute you infringe upon the rights of others it no longer becomes expression nor will it be protected, but rather looked down upon.

Nothing wrong with writing code. But when that code disrupts the good hard work of Nexon and it infringes upon their rights and you blatantly yet deliberately use that so called "expression" even though you agreed to NOT use it, then it's not expression. It's just an annoyance, that justifies Nexon's current actions.

Having guns as a form of expression is not illegal. Shooting people is. Shooting cans is not.

Writing code as a form of expression is not illegal. Using it for copyright infringement is. Using it for cheating in a single player game is not.

You want to come up with a better example?

Having a gun without a license and in the open, in hand, even not firing, is illegal in alot of parts.

Writing malicious code is illegal too.

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Wow, some people look into this way too hard, this is getting stupid.

Except you're contradicting yourself by saying that there is nothing wrong with writing code then saying Nexon is justified. It's not up to the creator to make sure users use the product properly, it is the job of the user themselves.

I didn't specify the kind of code. I simply said that writing code, under the assumption that it doesn't disrupt, which is pretty damn obvious, isn't wrong. Only when it does disrupt, whether it's accidental or deliberate, (more so deliberate) which is the case now with hackers, does it justify Nexon's actions. You should carefully read what I said instead of trying to quickly write retorts.

And yes you're right. It's not up to the creator to moderate our use of things but it is Nexon's right to protect that which they have devoted so many resources for and make sure the game is being played fairly and that each and every player has an experience with MS that is unimpeded by hackers. As well as making sure that every player follows the rules they agreed to when choosing to play the game.

XFD. So, something that's been around since 2003ish has never been shutdown until Nexon came along? It's very easily arguable that CheatEngine is not malicious code.

Except the fact that the WZ Edits, which were basically malicious code. They might not have been directly destructive, but they were altering for purpose of cheating. The server was holding the files themselves.

Oh, you want to play that card. I figured since the DMCA and free speech were the issues here, we were speaking in reference to the US. And in the US, we have a Constitutional right to guns. Must've totally escaped my mind that guns are outlawed.

You don't need to issue a better example, I agree. But your example doesn't apply. Code is being used for something harmful. That has nothing to do with the distribution of it, nor the creation of it. The user is the offending party, not the creator of the software.

Cheat Engine does not infringe on anyone's rights and Nexon is, indeed, overstepping the boundary of the law. How it's used might infringe Nexon's rights, but that's a separate issue entirely that has nothing to do with DarkByte.

What you're suggesting is anything that can possibly be used for copyright infringement is actionable. This is THE SAME EXACT THING as trying to go after mIRC because it supports DCC. Going after Bram Cohen for BitTorrent. Going after Windows Calculator because it can help you decrypt and distribute encrypted copyrighted files. There's no difference. Cheat Engine is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Oh, you want to play that card. I figured since the DMCA and free speech were the issues here, we were speaking in reference to the US. And in the US, we have a Constitutional right to guns. Must've totally escaped my mind that guns are outlawed.

You don't need to issue a better example, I agree. But your example doesn't apply. Code is being used for something harmful. That has nothing to do with the distribution of it, nor the creation of it. The user is the offending party, not the creator of the software.

Cheat Engine does not infringe on anyone's rights and Nexon is, indeed, overstepping the boundary of the law. How it's used might infringe Nexon's rights, but that's a separate issue entirely that has nothing to do with DarkByte.

What you're suggesting is anything that can possibly be used for copyright infringement is actionable. This is THE SAME EXACT THING as trying to go after mIRC because it supports DCC. Going after Bram Cohen for BitTorrent. Going after Windows Calculator because it can help you decrypt and distribute encrypted copyrighted files. There's no difference. Cheat Engine is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Ok then. Seeing how you like to think this way about the law, as it must be followed step by step:

Court of Law V.S. Court of Justice.

Justice is the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, fairness and equity.

Law is a system of rules, usually enforced through a set of institutions.

Both definitions are from Wikipedia. I hope you understand that.

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So lets take this. A team of programmers have made a living profit off a video game that can only be run on the internet. With this money, the team can feed their family and themselves, along with cloth and house.

A few people decide to write a few "cheats" to the game, to bypass certain functionality within the game. Giving an upper hand. They release a public patch to this.

Some people, who don't understand advance computer logic, use this. They start taking advantages of this cheat. They come to corrupt even others gameplay. Players who actually like to have a challenge are upset by this, and quite a number quit. The profit that the programmers were gaining is now halting. They have no money to feed their family.

The programmers have no income now. What honestly gave the people the right to take away their living?

So lets take this. A team of programmers have made a living profit off a video game that can only be run on the internet. With this money, the team can feed their family and themselves, along with cloth and house.

A few people decide to write a few "cheats" to the game, to bypass certain functionality within the game. Giving an upper hand. They release a public patch to this.

Some people, who don't understand advance computer logic, use this. They start taking advantages of this cheat. They come to corrupt even others gameplay. Players who actually like to have a challenge are upset by this, and quite a number quit. The profit that the programmers were gaining is now halting. They have no money to feed their family.

The programmers have no income now. What honestly gave the people the right to take away their living?

Your example is still a straw man, because Cheat Engine is not a patch that specifically targets Nexon's proprietary material.

If you want to zazz it up with emotional appeals, you may as well go for murder like Stereo did. Family is a good one, that hits close to home for everyone, but murder's better for emotional appeal.

Even if that is the case, the people actually DOING the damage (not the code, mind you, the people using it) are liable. Not the creator of the code.

FYI, I'm aware of the emotional effect of invoking Godwin's Law, but the rights of an individual are infinitely more important than one single means of profit generation. The damage to society in both is clear, but the former is much, much worse.

Penis!

I read carefully but it's hard to look deeper into an ignorant childs posts to find detail that doesn't exist. I'd need magical glasses for that. It doesn't matter if it DOES disrupt some cases, it's not up to the creator to police it, like you said.

Except it's not. How about you stop being blinded by your bias for the hate towards hackers and look at the law? No one cares if your account was hacked or you were ksed by hackers. It's Nexon's right to protect their game under the law, not beyond it.

If Nexon were taking action beyond the law, then the law would of stepped in. yet I don't see that happening. A lot of these websites were distributing edited wz files, which need I remind you is illegal. And that was more than enough reason and justification for Nexon to step in

And no I'm not biased nor am I holding some grudge. I'm merely seeing things from their point of view. They are just protecting their rights and investments which they have a legal protected right to do so. Your whole bittorrent or calculator argument has no place here. Those apps can be used for legal and justifiable reasons. These sites use programs and code which only have one use in MS and that's for hacking and malicious acts.

Your example is still a straw man, because Cheat Engine is not a patch that specifically targets Nexon's proprietary material.

If you want to zazz it up with emotional appeals, you may as well go for murder like Stereo did. Family is a good one, that hits close to home for everyone, but murder's better for emotional appeal.

Even if that is the case, the people actually DOING the damage (not the code, mind you, the people using it) are liable. Not the creator of the code.

FYI, I'm aware of the emotional effect of invoking Godwin's Law, but the rights of an individual are infinitely more important than one single means of profit generation. The damage to society in both is clear, but the former is much, much worse.

Thing is, the majority of the "Maplestory hackers" are born idiots. You can see it on CEF too.

Since the business model is "Free to play w/ optional micro transactions", it is more sensitive then hacking a Pay to play game.

Take out the ring leader(s) and the rest will fall, simple.

And since it is basically targeting Nexon's proprietary material. Since they were basically using this for the full purpose of cheating. It was Nexon's target.

One other thing, how would you take it, in all honesty, if someone was hacking your game that you were making profit off of. And a forum board community was basically targeting your material?

And since it is basically targeting Nexon's proprietary material. Since they were basically using this for the full purpose of cheating. It was Nexon's target.

One other thing, how would you take it, in all honesty, if someone was hacking your game that you were making profit off of. And a forum board community was basically targeting your material?

No, it doesn't. How, exactly, does Cheat Engine target MapleStory's copyrighted material? I downloaded it a second ago, scanned the options and the interface, and didn't see a "Modify MapleStory" option. I'm seriously interested to know.

And regarding your second paragraph, I have a brain. It happens to work pretty well. I have a fair bit of business sense to boot. The full scope of a decision can't be easily taken without considering every aspect of it. This was obviously either not thought entirely through or deliberately designed to violate the law.

I would've handled it differently. Send a DMCA, say "okay, you have infringing materials here, here, and here. Please take them down." That would've been within the law.

They probably would've put up rules about not having Nexon proprietary material - if not after the first DMCA, then after a few DMCAs. There's no need to go overboard and try to shut down the entire site. You can stop the distribution of your copyrighted work that way. That's it. That's all you're supposed to be able to do. Nexon has no copyrights over Cheat Engine.

To really stop hacking, they need more active GMs. That's all there is to it. Unless they start monitoring every single thing that your computer launches and does (which they already do, I just don't think it's transmitted automatically [could be wrong RE transmission]), there's no other LEGAL way to take action against people that are using hacks.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and getting your details from an ISP is a trivial affair. They could easily ask for the account information of someone using a particular IP address at x time. Nevermind the implications about false detections, other people using your machines, etc...

I think this thread needs a lock now...

No, it doesn't. How, exactly, does Cheat Engine target MapleStory's copyrighted material? I downloaded it a second ago, scanned the options and the interface, and didn't see a "Modify MapleStory" option. I'm seriously interested to know.

And regarding your second paragraph, I have a brain. It happens to work pretty well. I have a fair bit of business sense to boot. The full scope of a decision can't be easily taken without considering every aspect of it. This was obviously either not thought entirely through or deliberately designed to violate the law.

I would've handled it differently. Send a DMCA, say "okay, you have infringing materials here, here, and here. Please take them down." That would've been within the law.

They probably would've put up rules about not having Nexon proprietary material - if not after the first DMCA, then after a few DMCAs. There's no need to go overboard and try to shut down the entire site. You can stop the distribution of your copyrighted work that way. That's it. That's all you're supposed to be able to do. Nexon has no copyrights over Cheat Engine.

To really stop hacking, they need more active GMs. That's all there is to it. Unless they start monitoring every single thing that your computer launches and does (which they already do, I just don't think it's transmitted automatically [could be wrong RE transmission]), there's no other LEGAL way to take action against people that are using hacks.

How is having a section on the forum board that contains nothing but help posts, how-to, and downloads of modifications to the client not targeting?

Not talking about the software "Cheat Engine"

He so adamant in his belief that Nexon is operating outside of the law. Yet he has nothing to prove it mean while were pointing out every reason that justifies Nexon's actions.

I also think it's time to lock this thread.

He so adamant in his belief that Nexon is operating outside of the law. Yet he has nothing to prove it mean while were pointing out every reason that justifies Nexon's actions.

I also think it's time to lock this thread.

I honestly don't know why he was talking about Cheat Engine Software.

I was talking about the forum board from the beginning.