Lloyd Korn shuts down MapleStory hackers.

Awesome! Hopefully in a while all the other websites are gone too .

K, so private servers and hacks are out of the way. Hopefully meso selling sites are next... is it possible to get people to stop selling mesos on ebay? O_o

Now, I wonder how they would target meso sites?
Like, what are they doing wrong?
Couldn't be anything related to the DMCA.

Now, I wonder how they would target meso sites?
Like, what are they doing wrong?
Couldn't be anything related to the DMCA.

they're selling nexon's property. you don't own ANYTHING in-game; everything belongs to nexon.

they're selling nexon's property. you don't own ANYTHING in-game; everything belongs to nexon.

It doesn't work that way in China.
The copyright laws are quite different. :<
Enough to have a case, but the local governments in China tend to slack when it comes to IPR's and things. I wouldn't be surprised if they came right out and said they support piracy and just disregard all IPR laws anyway.

...However unfortunate, intellectual property infringements in China only occur whenever the information is copyrighted, patented, or trademarked within the PRC.

they're selling nexon's property. you don't own ANYTHING in-game; everything belongs to nexon.

pineapple. Double post. My bad.

It doesn't work that way in China.
The copyright laws are quite different. :<
Enough to have a case, but the local governments in China tend to slack when it comes to IPR's and things. I wouldn't be surprised if they came right out and said they support piracy and just disregard all IPR laws anyway.

...However unfortunate, intellectual property infringements in China only occur whenever the information is copyrighted, patented, or trademarked within the PRC.

Have you followed the series of trials taken place regarding The Pirate Bay? Nowadays any major American conglomerate can throw the "Intellectual Property Violation" card out of their asses and have American law pushed on other countries.

It's not as far-fetched as you think.

In this circumstance, the servers are like real-estate. Same way with how if you're on an army base internationally, you're considered to be on American soil. If these folks are using Nexon's servers, they're subject to consequences present in the nation of those servers: the United States.

Have you followed the series of trials taken place regarding The Pirate Bay? Nowadays any major American conglomerate can throw the "Intellectual Property Violation" card out of their asses and have American law pushed on other countries.

It's not as far-fetched as you think.

In this circumstance, the servers are like real-estate. Same way with how if you're on an army base internationally, you're considered to be on American soil. If these folks are using Nexon's servers, they're subject to consequences present in the nation of those servers: the United States.

The Pirate Bay is staying up for another 2 - 5 years, depending on the time it takes the appeal to actually go to court. And the people who run it are still laughing their ass off at those American and British lawyers and law firms sending them copyright notices.

It's true, they could, but meso farmers aren't even hurting their business. Probably helping more than their hurting, such isn't really the case with the other two. Yeah, what you're saying is definitely true, though. :<
How unfortunate, look at my mindset these days! I feel like a communist or something (not really), but I do believe digital information/media should be open for the public, and trying to keep a hold on ownership of such digital property just seems so...pointless. It's so hard to remove the stuff from every nook and cranny, and they'd just waste way more money than necessary trying to do so. :/

hope DarkByte host CEF at neitherlands this time and remove anything related to .wz repacking, official server files.

Yeah. And I'm really glad CEF got owned. They're doing the right thing, this is the only way to kill hackers: shutting down hacking forums. Once all the hacking forums will be down, nobody will be able to hack anymore. I mean, only pro hackers will be able to.

Or you could kill hackers a more sensible way. When has using the law to fight human nature ever worked? Do you even understand the reasons why some choose to hack?

Some do it to get an unfair advantage, yes. Others do it as a form of revenge. Others do it simply because they like to deconstruct things and figure out how they work and use that knowledge to construct other things.

The only ones you can kill off are the ones that use it for revenge or unfair advantages. You can make it so they don't want to exact revenge by making it so they're never "wronged" in the first place (think harassment, KSing). For those that want unfair advantages, it's easy enough to permanently ban them because they're after concrete, material rewards.

However, the last group is expressing human nature. You will not kill these, no matter what legal steps you take. They will always be there and increasing the penalties for these "crimes" (yeah, human nature is a crime now, didn't you get the memo?) will never reduce their numbers. The bigger the puzzle, the bigger the mystery, the harder the challenge, the bigger the draw.

And it's amazing that they are. I hope Nexon keeps trying and fighting this crap. I hate that people encourage and perpetuate garbage like PSs and especially hacks.

Dangerous attitude to have. "They have my opinion, so I hope they keep abusing the law to get the outcome I want."

Abusing the law DOES NOT WORK. The Cheat Engine forums are not bound by any terms Nexon sets forth unless the owner of the forums agrees to Nexon's insignificant terms. Distribution of the .wz files, okay. Fine. That's copyright infringement because they clearly have Nexon proprietary material.

The proper response to this, then, is not taking down a website, but removing the infringing material.

Do you not understand the implications? DMCA is not a catch-all for stopping free speech. It's used to stop uncontrolled copyright violations. You cannot say that the hacking section for MapleStory infringes Nexon's copyright without files that do so, because it doesn't.

The argument that it "damages their profit" could be used for anything. Hey, the Internet damages the profit of newspapers. The Internet "damages" profits for record companies. The Internet "damages" the profits of Internet businesses! Yet no ISPs are being sued.

Or, in a more accurate example, third party markets for car parts damages the car manufacturer's profits. If you think designing and manufacturing cars is not a creative act, then ???. The point is that computers SHOULD BE no different from any other industry. The only difference is that it's infinitely easier and less costly to create duplicates of anything imaginable. Okay. So what makes sense here is to go completely against that idea of progress and outlaw it!

The legal system was NOT designed for what we've experienced these last 20-25 years. There are a lot of issues with copyright, but it's getting way out of hand.

"Yay because they share my opinion" only works until they don't share your opinion. Mr. Korn has even specified that he has no problem with "the Southperry," "but you've got to stay away from cracking codes and extracting" [don't remember the exact quote, can't be bothered to dig up that phone conversation] and tried to stop Fiel from doing his thing. Fiel received a DMCA complaint, I believe. You can't tell me that what Fiel was doing here wasn't fair use.

This isn't theory, this is a real example of free speech infringement using copyright as a guise for "whatever the pineapple I want." No. That's not how it works.

I don't like hackers as much as the next guy and I don't play any private servers, but I respect their right to speech. Something we clearly disagree on.

Dangerous attitude to have. "They have my opinion, so I hope they keep abusing the law to get the outcome I want."

Dang, ok, so I will start hoping nexon doesn't go towards the option I see as morally correct, and that I support, noted.

Abusing the law DOES NOT WORK. The Cheat Engine forums are not bound by any terms Nexon sets forth unless the owner of the forums agrees to Nexon's insignificant terms. Distribution of the .wz files, okay. Fine. That's copyright infringement because they clearly have Nexon proprietary material.

Obviously they aren't insignificant since they had enough to make them take the site down, and abusing the law isn't 'abusing' when they recently updated the ToS to deal with it. Want to put a stop to drug addicts? Go after the distributors rather than individuals using them. Granted, that is more extreme than maple hackers, but it's the same idea.

Do you not understand the implications? DMCA is not a catch-all for stopping free speech. It's used to stop uncontrolled copyright violations. You cannot say that the hacking section for MapleStory infringes Nexon's copyright without files that do so, because it doesn't.

Nexon updated the ToS to include using and/or distributing hacks as breaking them, also.

6.4 Software. Use or downloading of the Software is conditioned on your acceptance of the terms and conditions of our End User License Agreement and any license agreements relating to such Software, including all third party agreements. By using the Software, you agree to all of the terms and conditions set forth in such agreements.

In addition you agree not to create, design, disseminate, link, distribute, provide access to or use any third party programs, bots, scripts, codes, bypass, memory scanning software, hacks or cheats designed to alter the game play or to modify the code to play the game differently than it was intended by means of programs not permitted or authorized by Nexon

Thus Nexon is using this as the legal backing, ever downloaded Maple? then you agreed even without clicking yes on the ToS, and the whole ignorance bit generally doesn't work, I doubt you'd get far defending it by arguing that you didn't know you couldn't distribute hacks, these sites know that they shouldn't be doing it really, but continue anyway.

The argument that it "damages their profit" could be used for anything. Hey, the Internet damages the profit of newspapers. The Internet "damages" profits for record companies. The Internet "damages" the profits of Internet businesses! Yet no ISPs are being sued.

Completely different scenario, the internet is not the same service as newspapers. News websites aren't copying the exact information from newspapers (though they might be writing about the same stories). Hacks change the code of maplestory, and for the real consumers enjoyment, force them to invest money and time on attempting to patch said hacks.

and I guarentee you don't sign a contract saying that you won't use 3rd party products on your car.

Or, in a more accurate example, third party markets for car parts damages the car manufacturer's profits. If you think designing and manufacturing cars is not a creative act, then ???. The point is that computers SHOULD BE no different from any other industry.

Ok, lets compared hacking to other industries opinions on hacking the products then, firstly car hacking... oh wait, can't do that, urm, ok , the film industry? Ah, they spend enough time trying to arrest the people who distribute fake dvds and files, not a good example for you then, what else, what else. Hmm. Video game companies do the best they can because they like to protect the products they've made.

The only difference is that it's infinitely easier and less costly to create duplicates of anything imaginable. Okay. So what makes sense here is to go completely against that idea of progress and outlaw it!

Ah , of course, progress, duplicating something to screw over the original makers who spent time and money on it is progress! God, we've progressed so far, i'm sure in older times Shakespear wouldn't have minded if people had stolen copies of his script and used them to make identical plays over the country, at the very least! Oh wait...

The legal system was NOT designed for what we've experienced these last 20-25 years. There are a lot of issues with copyright, but it's getting way out of hand.

Yes, it is getting out of hand, this is not one of the times it's out of hand, the only situation where it is out of control currently is where people patent something, make no attempt to make something of it, then sue when something similar to your patent is finally made.

This isn't theory, this is a real example of free speech infringement using copyright as a guise for "whatever the pineapple I want." No. That's not how it works.

This is a example of free spech how? Defacing any real life product wouldn't be counted as free speech, and thats exactly what hacking is doing to maple. Or did you mean private servers? Okie doke, since thats 'free speech' I should be able to sell bootleg copies of films and video games, among other things, for cheaper than the real companies can afford to, because it's free speech to rip off someone elses product and use it to my own ends, and provide competition to the hard working makers of the original game.

I don't like hackers as much as the next guy and I don't play any private servers, but I respect their right to speech. Something we clearly disagree on.[/QUOTE]

I'll be using my right to speech to come and rob you blind at some point then, since it's clearly something you agree with. Ok that sarcasms a bit much but it's still a silly opinion to have.

The argument that it "damages their profit" could be used for anything. Hey, the Internet damages the profit of newspapers. The Internet "damages" profits for record companies. The Internet "damages" the profits of Internet businesses! Yet no ISPs are being sued.

The music industry is being hurt badly by the free distribution of music.
Yes, the internet damages the profit of newspapers. But it's okay. They adapted to follow suit. Yes, the internet damages profits for record companies. What do you think Pirate Bay was down for? They had to move ISPs and their servers because their former server got shut down. Is the music industry then suppressing freedom of "speech" as you put it?

In fact the ISP wasn't even sued in this case, they were told that CEF was performing illegal acts and took down the site in order to prevent legal action that could affect them.

Or, in a more accurate example, third party markets for car parts damages the car manufacturer's profits. If you think designing and manufacturing cars is not a creative act, then ???. The point is that computers SHOULD BE no different from any other industry. The only difference is that it's infinitely easier and less costly to create duplicates of anything imaginable. Okay. So what makes sense here is to go completely against that idea of progress and outlaw it!

How are third party markets for car parts damaging the car manufacturers products? You already paid for the car model itself so therefore you're just modding it. You also don't affect anyone else by modding your car, unlike in Maple Story, so this doesn't even apply.

Unless you're suggesting that Maple Story be pay to play, then you're right. Hackers can do whatever the pineappling want.

Computers should be no different then any industry? Well gee whiz I don't see Toyota copying the EXACT same model of car, and then offering it to people for free and maybe some donations on the side.

You call this crap progress? It's interesting because the way I see it, everyone will suffer if no one innovates and simply just copies ideas. It's interesting eh?

The legal system was NOT designed for what we've experienced these last 20-25 years. There are a lot of issues with copyright, but it's getting way out of hand.

"Yay because they share my opinion" only works until they don't share your opinion. Mr. Korn has even specified that he has no problem with "the Southperry," "but you've got to stay away from cracking codes and extracting" [don't remember the exact quote, can't be bothered to dig up that phone conversation] and tried to stop Fiel from doing his thing. Fiel received a DMCA complaint, I believe. You can't tell me that what Fiel was doing here wasn't fair use.

This isn't even the same thing. I don't agree with Nexon on this one because Fiel was not doing anything infringing on Nexon's copyright. However Nexon was acting on information from MapleSnow (or whatever the pineapple they were called) accusing him of it.

This is different. Nexon was out of bounds BECAUSE Fiel was not affecting their profits and partaking of their intellectual product.

This isn't theory, this is a real example of free speech infringement using copyright as a guise for "whatever the pineapple I want." No. That's not how it works.

I don't like hackers as much as the next guy and I don't play any private servers, but I respect their right to speech. Something we clearly disagree on.

How the hell is this relating to freedom of speech? Freedom of speech let's you say "Nexon sucks, blah blah blah blah blah". Freedom of speech doesn't let you do, as you say, "whatever the pineapple I want." No. That's not how it works.

Your example of private servers is akin to this. A store opens up on a street right next to an established store. Now this established store is innovative, they design their own product. Now the new store breaks in, steals the designs and produces their own product at a fraction of the cost. They then sell it for a lower price, or give it for free, and charge for extras.

Is this not what Nexon is fighting against? Computers should be treated the same as any other product,

I'm pineappling sorry but if you think freedom of speech is the ability to do whatever you want, you're sadly mistaken.

Dang, ok, so I will start hoping nexon doesn't go towards the option I see as morally correct, and that I support, noted.

Then you will continue to support abusing the law to achieve your "morally correct" ways. For someone who supports the law in the following statements, you sure are agreeing with abusing it quite blatantly. And if you don't think they're abusing it, you need to think about what they did to Fiel.

Obviously they aren't insignificant since they had enough to make them take the site down, and abusing the law isn't 'abusing' when they recently updated the ToS to deal with it. Want to put a stop to drug addicts? Go after the distributors rather than individuals using them. Granted, that is more extreme than maple hackers, but it's the same idea.

CEF didn't deserve the fate it got. The entire site was more than just MapleStory hackers, nor was it just somewhere where the "evil hackers" hang out. It's a place where people like Bui was talking about that hack due to human nature and the drive to learn more. CEF was more of that than anything. Be aware stopping drug trafficking is a completely different scenario. MapleStory hacking is nothing like drugs.

Nexon updated the ToS to include using and/or distributing hacks as breaking them, also.

Thus Nexon is using this as the legal backing, ever downloaded Maple? then you agreed even without clicking yes on the ToS, and the whole ignorance bit generally doesn't work, I doubt you'd get far defending it by arguing that you didn't know you couldn't distribute hacks, these sites know that they shouldn't be doing it really, but continue anyway.

Keep in mind that their simple Terms of Service/Privacy Policy aren't law, and aren't backed by law. It's their copyrights and trademarks that are backed by the law.

Completely different scenario, the internet is not the same service as newspapers. News websites aren't copying the exact information from newspapers (though they might be writing about the same stories). Hacks change the code of maplestory, and for the real consumers enjoyment, force them to invest money and time on attempting to patch said hacks.

No, actually, I'm pretty sure it's an accurate comparison. Weren't really talking about the copying of information, more of the claim that it's damaging their profits, which is being used just so Nexon can justify what they're doing, so they can "keep MapleStory free".

and I guarentee you don't sign a contract saying that you won't use 3rd party products on your car.

And if you did, would that stop people? No. The POINT IS, music, Nexon's media, and cars are all creative, well, creations, and the car manufacturers and not going bankrupt because people make after-market parts, so why should this apply only to computers and not other industries, such as cars?

Ok, lets compared hacking to other industries opinions on hacking the products then, firstly car hacking... oh wait, can't do that, urm, ok , the film industry? Ah, they spend enough time trying to arrest the people who distribute fake dvds and files, not a good example for you then, what else, what else. Hmm. Video game companies do the best they can because they like to protect the products they've made.

Every industry has it's equivalent. 3rd party/after market parts for cars. Film, music, and video game pirates. However, the latter are much WORSE than hackers. If everyone pirates their music and movies, there will be a huge dent in their profits, enough to sink them eventually. However, how is hacking sinking Nexon's profits? They're not stopping anyone from buying NX, and I'm sure their profits increase exponentially every year regardless of hackers (aside from Maple SEA's dilemma).

Ah , of course, progress, duplicating something to screw over the original makers who spent time and money on it is progress! God, we've progressed so far, i'm sure in older times Shakespear wouldn't have minded if people had stolen copies of his script and used them to make identical plays over the country, at the very least! Oh wait...

The internet is not real life. It never will be. There are some things you can control and some you can't. It's like he said, this is a situation in which once something is made once, it can be instantly duplicated, making it infinitely harder to control.

Yes, it is getting out of hand, this is not one of the times it's out of hand, the only situation where it is out of control currently is where people patent something, make no attempt to make something of it, then sue when something similar to your patent is finally made.

Obviously, it is. Nexon is going to continually chase people until they exert all they can and fall over. This isn't something you can control with legal brute force. I think it needs to be clarified that for once, there is an arena where most laws and legalities don't apply, and that place IS the internet. Once again, this is a place where information can be instantly duplicated, illegal files stored, private communities meet, and other things that you're never going to be rid of completely.

EDIT: Forte, Fiel WAS partaking in Nexon's Intellectual Property. That's the only reason they would've gotten away with what they did.

CEF didn't deserve the fate it got. The entire site was more than just MapleStory hackers, nor was it just somewhere where the "evil hackers" hang out. It's a place where people like Bui was talking about that hack due to human nature and the drive to learn more. CEF was more of that than anything. Be aware stopping drug trafficking is a completely different scenario. MapleStory hacking is nothing like drugs.

And a bunch of leechers got their pomegranate from CEF. They want to break the code? Don't release pomegranate.

No, actually, I'm pretty sure it's an accurate comparison. Weren't really talking about the copying of information, more of the claim that it's damaging their profits, which is being used just so Nexon can justify what they're doing, so they can "keep MapleStory free".

DO you know how many people refuse to support Nexon BECAUSE of the hacking? And you can get NX items for mesos in private servers. Since everyone would rather have a crazy 10000000 level characters in a private server so they can show off their e-damage rather then put time in Maple Story.

And if you did, would that stop people? No. The POINT IS, music, Nexon's media, and cars are all creative, well, creations, and the car manufacturers and not going bankrupt because people make after-market parts, so why should this apply only to computers and not other industries, such as cars?

Because the majority of people buy pre made models. While in maple story, anyone can get hacks and screw up someone's gameplay.

Every industry has it's equivalent. 3rd party/after market parts for cars. Film, music, and video game pirates. However, the latter are much WORSE than hackers. If everyone pirates their music and movies, there will be a huge dent in their profits, enough to sink them eventually. However, how is hacking sinking Nexon's profits? They're not stopping anyone from buying NX, and I'm sure their profits increase exponentially every year regardless of hackers (aside from Maple SEA's dilemma).

Refer to the post before. I've seen many people who state they won't be giving a cent to Nexon until the hackers have been dealt with accordingly.

The internet is not real life. It never will be. There are some things you can control and some you can't. It's like he said, this is a situation in which once something is made once, it can be instantly duplicated, making it infinitely harder to control.

The person he was refuting felt that computers should be dealt with in the same way as tangible products.

EDIT: Forte, Fiel WAS partaking in Nexon's Intellectual Property. That's the only reason they would've gotten away with what they did.

Partaking for the purpose of a private server? No. Otherwise everyone who ever used a maple story image would be sued.

"The road to hell is full with good intentions"

Everything we do is violating some sort of nexon policy we agreed to at some point. hell, even if you use your maple character in ur sig you are technically illegally using nexon's intellectual property. its like that for a reason, nexon want to have full control over the game and be able to shut down anyone they dont like just because they want to. you are "forced" to agree to contracts you know you will break, and nexon also know you will break. but as long as you dont annoy them, they will just let it slip by and ignore the possiblity to DMCA you.


EDIT: Also, i see this topic is slowly turning from informative to a flame war\hacking discussion topic. i cant read the mods mind, but something tells me this topic is going to get locked. so cut it please.

Ooh, we have some experts in straw mannery.

Large, senseless post +

I'll be using my right to speech to come and rob you blind at some point then, since it's clearly something you agree with. Ok that sarcasms a bit much but it's still a silly opinion to have.

First of all, you agree that by reading my post, I get to punch you in the face. That's not how it works. You can't have it both ways. The FCC has said "if your advertising giveth and your EULA taketh away, expect the FCC to come knocking."

Never once are you prompted to agree to anything before downloading the client. If they want to put additional terms on the download, they're free to do so, but they must give a contract first. The Terms of Service can be considered a contract in the case where the people actually agree to it before using the service.

This means that you can't put any clauses in your agreement and expect them to be followed when nobody agrees to the agreement specifically. MapleStory is constantly advertised as "free game, instant download here!" Never once do you explicitly agree to any terms. It's the job of the provider of the service to make their terms clear.

But wait, if they did that, then more people wouldn't download because it's annoying? Probably. And it should tell you that their biggest problem isn't private servers or hackers. If that was the case, they would have no qualms about putting up an agreement to agree to before downloading, because the losses would be offset by their action.

Furthermore, the Terms of Service are not law. They might be a tort at best legal case, but it's not a crime unless it happens to fall into the definition of a crime. You're right, I didn't sign a contract for 3rd party car parts - and neither did I sign one to download the client.

My position isn't silly at all. Way to not respond to my actual example, by the way, which had nothing to do with private servers. My example was about this very site and Fiel's work.

Oh yeah, and you can go ahead and ignore the historical reason for copyright, which is THE RIGHT TO DISTRIBUTE COPIES OF YOUR OWN WORK. We, as a society, say, "Okay, you can have a monopoly on your creation, provided that it falls into the public domain after a period of time, and then society benefits from your creation." Before computers, the only people who had the resources to violate copyright were companies. Individuals did not have this power. Now individuals do. Now companies are scrambling to make sure the individuals don't have this power, but they do.

Hint at what happens: Companies lose to progress. Same as every time something big like computers hit in history. Right now, they're extended copyright so far that they virtually never fall into the public domain. Guess what? You know that Steamboat Willy stuff from the 30's? Still copyrighted. Aww yee. Culture has already lost the benefit of the work by the time 100 years are over. That means that copyright holders are not holding up their end of responsibility.

You can't tell me that's not an abuse of the legal system. Oh, FYI, forums are made for discussion. The important qualifier you seem to have looked over is doesn't have infringing files. If they don't have infringing files, it doesn't matter what the pineapple they're talking about, they're talking about it, it's speech. Plain, simple, end of story, even you can understand it.

The music industry is being hurt badly by the free distribution of music. Yes, the internet damages the profit of newspapers. But it's okay. They adapted to follow suit. Yes, the internet damages profits for record companies. What do you think Pirate Bay was down for?

Yeah, that's why the only newspapers that adapted to the Internet are the big ones and nearly all the smaller ones are gone now. Okay. Swell argument. By the way, the Pirate Bay is a service similar to Google. The owners might have ill intent, and they deserve to be canned for that, but there's nothing you can get them for -- except maybe refusing to honor takedown notices when copyright can be proven and a legitimate complaint is filed. This is NOT the same.

In fact the ISP wasn't even sued in this case, they were told that CEF was performing illegal acts and took down the site in order to prevent legal action that could affect them.

Oh, so you see my point. It stifles speech in that it's easier and cheaper to just pack up and move out instead of, you know, asserting your right to speech.

How are third party markets for car parts damaging the car manufacturers products? You already paid for the car model itself so therefore you're just modding it. You also don't affect anyone else by modding your car, unlike in Maple Story, so this doesn't even apply.

Incorrect. Straw man at its finest. I said car manufacturers' profits, by the way, not products. The 3rd party car part market does hit the OEM profits by providing competition and alternatives to officially manufactured parts. What I'm arguing is that simply "damaging profits" is not sufficient grounds for a legally actionable offense. It has nothing to do with the similarity to MapleStory.

If that were the case, guess what would happen to word of mouth? Freedom of speech? Hoo. I'm seeing double!

This isn't even the same thing. I don't agree with Nexon on this one because Fiel was not doing anything infringing on Nexon's copyright. However Nexon was acting on information from MapleSnow (or whatever the pineapple they were called) accusing him of it.

This is different. Nexon was out of bounds BECAUSE Fiel was not affecting their profits and partaking of their intellectual product.

This is different from hacking sites, you're right.

I didn't equate hacking sites to Fiel's incident. I'm saying that nobody that uses this forum sees that as a positive use of Nexon's power. Guess what? We didn't agree with it. You can't agree with it in one case when it's abusive and not agree with it in another (and it IS abusive to try to shut down sites that talk about hacks, as you might notice).

Your example of private servers is akin to this. A store opens up on a street right next to an established store. Now this established store is innovative, they design their own product. Now the new store breaks in, steals the designs and produces their own product at a fraction of the cost. They then sell it for a lower price, or give it for free, and charge for extras.

Is this not what Nexon is fighting against? Computers should be treated the same as any other product,

You can't steal things that don't exist in tangible form. The only thing you can do is duplicate them. I appreciate your sentiment, but it's misguided. I'm not saying that Nexon doesn't have a monopoly over their product, I'm saying that DISCUSSION about hacks and private servers has nothing to do with infringing their copyright.

CEF was allowing its users to distribute copyright-infringing material that allowed them to duplicate, alter, and change Maplestory binaries. How does this not go against Nexon's copyright? I'm afraid even after I've read everything you typed, Bui, I still don't see how what Nexon did was wrong. It'd be hard for Nexon to make a case against speech against their product in talks or hack discussion. True. But CEF allowed attachments (which are hosted by CEF) to distribute these materials. That, in Nexon's eye, is the violation - not necessarily the discussion. The recent intervention of repackers made the difference.

This is further illustrated by the point of KittonKicker's localhost which invaded on the WzMss binary. It was only after this file was distributed on CEF that Nexon intervened and told CEF to take it down. Nexon knows free speech when it sees it.

CEF was allowing its users to distribute copyright-infringing material that allowed them to duplicate, alter, and change Maplestory binaries. How does this not go against Nexon's copyright? I'm afraid even after I've read everything you typed, Bui, I still don't see how what Nexon did was wrong. It'd be hard for Nexon to make a case against speech against their product in talks or hack discussion. True. But CEF allowed attachments (which are hosted by CEF) to distribute these materials. That, in Nexon's eye, is the violation - not necessarily the discussion. The recent intervention of repackers made the difference.

This is further illustrated by the point of KittonKicker's localhost which invaded on the WzMss binary. It was only after this file was distributed on CEF that Nexon intervened and told CEF to take it down. Nexon knows free speech when it sees it.

It just seems, perhaps there was a better alternative than to remove the whole site. Over half the site isn't MapleStory related, and a good portion of it is getting help with programming, having random discussions, whatever the case may be.

It just seems, perhaps there was a better alternative than to remove the whole site. Over half the site isn't MapleStory related, and a good portion of it is getting help with programming, having random discussions, whatever the case may be.

That's simply how copyright infringement claims happen on the internet.
1) ask ISP to take down offending website
2) ISP tells site owners to remove inappropriate contents, and in the meantime takes it down
3) Site goes back up when it's ready


The quicker they get rid of the MS stuff, the quicker it'll be available for whatever other stuff it's used for.







Oh, and considering Nexon sells mesos it's extremely easy to point to how meso selling websites hurt their business. Plus when people get scammed they can only blame Nexon, and it just causes more trouble... The best way to deal with it would be to figure out what characters the sellers are using and ban them (maybe look at characters who commit high-volume meso trades or sending Duey packages, and never train)

Since the TS specifically asked for the legality of their actions, I would say, on the basis of intellectual property, yes, they own everything that's involved, game, info/data, music, graphics. Any form of manipulation with any of those would potentially give rise to copyright infringement. Which is the stance Nexon stands on the matter.

Would love to elaborate, but my poor drunken head refuse to think straight...

info/data

Not copyrightable. You're right with the rest. Compiling data in a meaningful form might be copyrightable. That's legally unsound territory.

CEF was allowing its users to distribute copyright-infringing material that allowed them to duplicate, alter, and change Maplestory binaries. How does this not go against Nexon's copyright? I'm afraid even after I've read everything you typed, Bui, I still don't see how what Nexon did was wrong. It'd be hard for Nexon to make a case against speech against their product in talks or hack discussion. True. But CEF allowed attachments (which are hosted by CEF) to distribute these materials. That, in Nexon's eye, is the violation - not necessarily the discussion. The recent intervention of repackers made the difference.

This is further illustrated by the point of KittonKicker's localhost which invaded on the WzMss binary. It was only after this file was distributed on CEF that Nexon intervened and told CEF to take it down. Nexon knows free speech when it sees it.

I don't argue the legitimacy of the copyright claim in regards to distribution of the .wz files (because I can't, it's plainly a violation of copyright) or modified game files (such as the .dll you mention).

I'm saying that using the DMCA to take down the entire site is a gross abuse of the DMCA, which appears to be the case based on the language of the complaint. They're saying "There are copyright violations on your site, remove them. You are violating our terms of service, stop it. Our terms of service include even discussing hacks as a wrongful action. Also, your program that has nothing to do with MapleStory specifically is infringing our copyright. Take it down."

THAT is what I'm arguing against. Not the blatant copyright violations. :p

Those should be taken care of immediately.

EDIT: As an afterthought, there's a well-defined process. The website is not liable for the content that a user uploads and once the website is informed about the infringing content, they remove it. The issue isn't that people can upload things, but whether or not the content they upload constitutes infringement. I don't get the idea that they're trying to take down the site because it allows uploads, but for an idea of the legal ramifications of all sorts of speech, take a look at:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/

CSS is fairly easily broken and it's not a trade secret, but video media companies are litigating to get the key removed from everywhere by claiming that it is. It's nowhere near the same as copyright, but you get an idea of what separates speech from legality on that site. There are a LOT of things to consider. It's in a similar domain with "intellectual property" too, as it's an algorithm.