4th job Single Target DPS

Several categories could be an interesting idea.

It can be like so:

1. Clean gear
2. Average gear
3. Above average gear
4. Godly gear (as in 5+ 30%s landing)
5. Perfect (hypothetical) gear

Several categories could be an interesting idea.

It can be like so:

1. Clean gear
2. Average gear
3. Above average gear
4. Godly gear (as in 5+ 30%s landing)
5. Perfect (hypothetical) gear

There's an idea. A lot of work figuring out what gear would be used for each character, but probably worth it. I guess I could have a little dropdown that mods the stats listed in the second sheet. Anyone pro enough with Excel to teach me how to do that, though? *hunts down Sybaris in-game*

There's an idea. A lot of work figuring out what gear would be used for each character, but probably worth it. I guess I could have a little dropdown that mods the stats listed in the second sheet. Anyone pro enough with Excel to teach me how to do that, though? *hunts down Sybaris in-game*

Most definitely it'd be worth it, mostly because some classes scale differently in power as they get better gear. Some may have an average gain overall from the beginning to the end, others may gain power fast, but peak at a certain level, and there can be others that may be crap with poor gear, but that power rises exponentially with every additional point of attack, etc.

How about a category for realistic gear, say, the gear you could obtain with 1b/2b/5b/*insert number* mesos in a given server.
Maybe also make separate categories with MoNs and HTPs, although that would make it extremely complicated.

How about a category for realistic gear, say, the gear you could obtain with 1b/2b/5b/*insert number* mesos in a given server.
Maybe also make separate categories with MoNs and HTPs, although that would make it extremely complicated.

No, unless someone wants to do weekly price checks on various items and analysis of the best use of your mesos for every server or something ridiculous like that. I choose to balance the scrolling on equips across classes because it's much easier and because it's fair. This method shows how strong each class is supposed to be. You could make a BW Pally outdamage a Sword Pally with enough funds but that doesn't make BWs better weapons. Prices change constantly as drop tables change and as we have Gach box events and new drops from PQs. People don't come into the game with a level 200 of whichever class they please and a certain amount of money to spend, so it's a pretty moot comparison, anyway. I refuse to do it the way Senyain did it.

peachenCamero (thanks again!) has helped me to fit drop-down boxes into the spreadsheet and what IllegallySane suggested is now possible. Right now the categories are:

1. Clean (unscrolled)
2. Classic (same as current version; 60% scrolls, all pass, going to include scrolled ZHelms as they seem to be getting more affordable)
3. Pro (custom setup that seems realistic, total value of equips probably 2-4b depending on class, I'm guessing? will still be equal scrolling)
4. Perfect (all equips have highest base stat possible and scrolled perfectly)
5. Chaos (chaos scrolls included for theoretical limit on damage with available equips)

What is defined as "Pro" is subjective and will take a bit of tweaking. Right now I'm thinking:

Weapon: +3 30%s, +4 60%s, on a 2 above average weapon. This is +25 from base, and pretty damn good for classes with expensive scrolls, such as NLs.
Glove: +5 60%s (15 att)
ZHelm: +10 60%s (35/15)
FS: +1 30%, +4 60%s (2/7 stat)
PAC: 4 att, +5 60%s (4/10 stat)
Earrings: +2 30%s, +3 60%s (12 stat)
Shield: +3 30%s, +4 60%s
Overall: +3 30%s, +7 60%s on 1 above average for each substat (+36 stat)

I'm also nerfing everything to Dragon weapons since it doesn't seem to make sense to use Timeless when they're not out and when I don't even count the level ups. The Timeless equips were a remnant of Devil's calculations. And finally, I'm just going to give every physical attacking class a Mark of Naricain unless it turns out STR Shadowers benefit more from the HT Pendant. Question though: Will Warriors still have enough accuracy if I make this change? The combined accuracy from ZHelm + HT Pendant + other stuff made me completely ignore if warriors had 139 accuracy. I may have the warriors use accuracy scrolled shoes and hat.

Other updates include:

Not adding attack arrows for archers (heavy sigh)
Interface improvements now that I know how to do dropdown boxes
Cannon speed changed

I'll probably have the whole slew of equips worked out by tonight and upload tomorrow once I'm done including all updates. I'd like feedback on the equips I'm using for "Pro."

Weapon: +3 30%s, +4 60%s, on a 2 above average weapon. This is +25 from base, and pretty damn good for classes with expensive scrolls, such as NLs.
Glove: +2 30%s, +3 60%s (17 att)
ZHelm: +10 60%s (25/15)
FS: +1 30%, +4 60%s (2/7 stat)
PAC: 4 att, +5 60%s (4/10 stat)
Earrings: +2 30%s, +3 60%s (12 stat)
Shield: +3 30%s, +4 60%s
Overall: +3 30%s, +7 60%s on 1 above average for each substat (+36 stat)

I wasn't aware that stat whores used 60% Helm ACC instead of 60% helm DEX. Shouldn't that +10 helm be 35 DEX?

Glove is excessive (14-15 is more on par with that gear, by the time you're at 15-16 you'd be looking at a 3-5 atk FS too) and unless there's some reason not to, I'd make the helm 30-35 dex/int for bowmen/thief/pirate and mages (warriors could go either way)
I have a 40 stat top+bottom on my warrior (23 str 17 dex - that's +13 70%) which might be more likely than a 36 stat overall.


HT pendant only drops about 4 acc switching to a MoN, if it wasn't a problem it won't be a problem, and it really shouldn't be. If you are using 60% for acc on the Zhelm it adds 68 acc alone.


e: more specifically,
dex: 4 + 35 (Z) + 7 (shoe) + 12 (ear) + ? (overall) + 5 (MoN)
luk: 4 + 15 (Z) + 5 (MoN)
acc: 20(mastery) + 20(Z) + ? (overall) + 13 (MoN) + x (face)

= 50.4(dex) + 12(luk) + 53 (acc) + ? + x
115 acc plus whatever your overall/pants or face gear added, which needs to be 14 or so. Top+bottom would cover it, or using a couple 30% dex on that overall (making it 12 dex 7 acc 25 str)

I wasn't aware that stat whores used 60% Helm ACC instead of 60% helm DEX. Shouldn't that +10 helm be 35 DEX?

Oops, forgot dex added 2. Edited.

I'll keep the glove 15 then.

Edit: The overall is more than 36 stat, it's 36 stats over base stats, which is 46 stats for the archer overall, for example.
What would be a good match for that kind of overall? +3 30% +4 60% on top and bottom? Or +2?

Is the DrK with zerk?

^ yes, by default.

No, unless someone wants to do weekly price checks on various items and analysis of the best use of your mesos for every server or something ridiculous like that. I choose to balance the scrolling on equips across classes because it's much easier and because it's fair. This method shows how strong each class is supposed to be. You could make a BW Pally outdamage a Sword Pally with enough funds but that doesn't make BWs better weapons. Prices change constantly as drop tables change and as we have Gach box events and new drops from PQs. People don't come into the game with a level 200 of whichever class they please and a certain amount of money to spend, so it's a pretty moot comparison, anyway. I refuse to do it the way Senyain did it.

With all due respect, I'd have to say that makes your comparison blatantly biased, particularly in favor of NLs. But that's what I've come to expect from a good part of the MS community. Balancing scrolling on equips is inherently an un"fair" comparison... it's not even close to fair, it's just easy. As for a BW Paladin or a sword Paladin with equal spending, if the BW Paladin is outdamaging the sword Paladin then maybe it *is* true that at that level of funding the BW would win (though I can guarantee you would not get that result - proper swords are too much faster). A person who comes into the game that chooses to play a certain job won't have the same level of scrolling on equips no matter what. Even with the shifts in prices due to boxes there have been some universal trends, and one of them is that for instance, if you start the game with a character, unfunded or funded is moot, you are not going to afford a +3 30%, +4 60% claw on a Night Lord yet only also afford a +3 30%, +4 60% sword on a Hero or Paladin with the same gameplay. Quite honestly your thread is a more accurate comparison of godly-funded thieves to poorly-funded everyone else.

Additionally, granting NLs one of their strongest stars and Shadowers a khanjar, but granting warriors only a normal speed 2h and a 1h with no attack shield, is automatically a joke. If I didn't know better I'd say you had an agenda to pursue, what with just how badly unbalanced this comparison is.

Crossheider - 14 att, 12 str

Dusk, I have a suggestion. Make an option that sets base stats according to level (or just fixed at 200) and lets you add equip stats to that. Though I suppose that could just be sandbox'd.

but granting warriors only a normal speed 2h and a 1h with no attack shield, is automatically a joke.

No, this post is automatically a joke.

Sword (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Sword (2h) - 124 att, 7 str
Axe (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Axe (2h) - 126 att, 7 str
Blunt (1h) - 122 att, 7 str
Blunt (2h) - 126 att, 7 str
Crossheider - 14 att, 12 str

Read the topic or don't talk. Simple as that.

With all due respect, I'd have to say that makes your comparison blatantly biased, particularly in favor of NLs. But that's what I've come to expect from a good part of the MS community. Balancing scrolling on equips is inherently an un"fair" comparison... it's not even close to fair, it's just easy. As for a BW Paladin or a sword Paladin with equal spending, if the BW Paladin is outdamaging the sword Paladin then maybe it *is* true that at that level of funding the BW would win (though I can guarantee you would not get that result - proper swords are too much faster). A person who comes into the game that chooses to play a certain job won't have the same level of scrolling on equips no matter what. Even with the shifts in prices due to boxes there have been some universal trends, and one of them is that for instance, if you start the game with a character, unfunded or funded is moot, you are not going to afford a +3 30%, +4 60% claw on a Night Lord yet only also afford a +3 30%, +4 60% sword on a Hero or Paladin with the same gameplay. Quite honestly your thread is a more accurate comparison of godly-funded thieves to poorly-funded everyone else.

Additionally, granting NLs one of their strongest stars and Shadowers a khanjar, but granting warriors only a normal speed 2h and a 1h with no attack shield, is automatically a joke. If I didn't know better I'd say you had an agenda to pursue, what with just how badly unbalanced this comparison is.

I'll counter that the way you want to do it is more biased than the way I've done it. NL equips are only expensive because they are such a popular class, not because their items are inherently expensive. What's the point of comparing classes based on funding? Who is that information useful to? I highly doubt anyone sits around figuring out which class they should make based on a certain amount of funding. Comparing classes based on equal scrolling is useful, because it displays inherent differences between classes and helps you to understand how strong each class is, based on the way they're designed. Heroes do more 1v1 damage than Shadowers on neutral monsters. End of story. This is the way the game is balanced. It doesn't matter if the results don't match up to what you may see in-game. They never will. There are too many variables to consider, people have extremely varying amounts of funding, have different levels of success scrolling their equips, Marksmen don't use Snipe exactly every x seconds, BMs get slowed down ever so much more slightly from pausing Hurricane than other classes, DrKs can't always Berserk at every boss, some bosses require some classes to constantly adjust themselves or move to avoid attacks while other classes stand and spam, and so on. What you think is "balancing" the classes is merely introducing yet another variable into the system, making the results even more diluted.

What's wrong with using Khanjars and Ilbis? I consider shields and ammo to be a second part of the weapon. The level 110 weapon set for Corsairs is a Dragonfire Revolver and Eternal bullets. The level 110 weapon set for NLs is a Dragon Sleve and Ilbis. Nothing wrong there. Balanced Furies would be like archers using attack arrows, but Ilbis is perfectly fine.

Crossheider - 14 att, 12 str

Dusk, I have a suggestion. Make an option that sets base stats according to level (or just fixed at 200) and lets you add equip stats to that. Though I suppose that could just be sandbox'd.

I'm not sure how this would work. Example?

Wouldn't giving all classes maxed out equips make it all fair and make it a true comparison of which class does the most dps?

Wouldn't giving all classes maxed out equips make it all fair and make it a true comparison of which class does the most dps?

Nope because of certain items that give a relative advantage

I'm not sure how this would work. Example?

Look into JoeTang's damage calculator. Something like that, except maybe less elaborate.

Why does it matter? Are we trying to make it fair here? I thought the point was to see who does the most single target DPS, so someone's got to come on top.

Plus, we're not even being realistic here. The majority of people don't reach level 200, so might as well have a maxed out category.

Dusk said there will be an option for it.

peachenCamero (thanks again!) has helped me to fit drop-down boxes into the spreadsheet and what IllegallySane suggested is now possible. Right now the categories are:

1. Clean (unscrolled)
2. Classic (same as current version; 60% scrolls, all pass, going to include scrolled ZHelms as they seem to be getting more affordable)
3. Pro (custom setup that seems realistic, total value of equips probably 2-4b depending on class, I'm guessing? will still be equal scrolling)
4. Perfect (all equips have highest base stat possible and scrolled perfectly)
5. Chaos (chaos scrolls included for theoretical limit on damage with available equips)