Soul Arrow now stacks with +Attack Arrows.

Well, +4 attack is really only like +2.5-3.5% damage for archers who can actually solo pap, so it won't make much difference in terms of time taken to solo, especially due to critical luck.

Well, +4 attack is really only like +2.5-3.5% damage for archers who can actually solo pap, so it won't make much difference in terms of time taken to solo, especially due to critical luck.

The crit "luck" should balance out for something such as pap, because of the time it takes. All people should have an average damage that they do. Even though they can get lucky with my damage numbers, it's not going to affect their solo time much. ALL of my pap solos ending up 37 minutes or close to it, regardless of whether I'm hitting higher damages, I almost never end up with a 33 minute solo or a 40 minute solo. This exact same concept should apply to archers as well.

Also, if it's only +2.5-3.5% damage, then why do archers such as ALastReprise bother wasting time to get attack arrows just to save them during the fight? Why do people pay hundreds of millions of mesos for that one extra attack on their work gloves? Doesn't make sense to me.

BTW, that +2.5-3.5% damage WILL affect your solo. Go solo pap without Maple Warrior and maxed Med and you WILL notice your time increase by a noticeable amount.

4 attack won't make much of a difference, but it is plausible.


I was actually thinking of having someone who can't KB Pap without attack arrows try and KB him.

Me. That's the whole reason why I use attack arrows at pap today: I started using them at roughly 137 I think? When I first solo'd pap, I depended on my 20 attack hat + warrior elixir to solo it and keep it kb'd (and I had to use strafe to kb, cause my SoA was 11 at the time). When the hat expired, I switched to ciders + arrows. I was just <barely> able to keep it kb'd and I was unable to use the puppet >>>>>>>>>>>> pin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< method but I was able to solo it, though it took a large amount of time.

In relation to Harrison's claim of time difference, my pap times at the moment range from 13-17 minutes, depending on how focused I am and how often I get stunned or dispeled. That might be no big deal, but it's the difference between bringing 3 ciders and 4. I always carry 3 ciders, so the arrows are the difference between needing an extra use slot...iono, 13-17 in terms of proportion is similar to 33-40? Go figure.

Magicians' damage is extremely stable though compared to that of most other classes. Maximum damage of arrows can go up to like 3+ times the minimum. Also, archers take a lot less time to solo, so something like a 10-minute solo without the attack boost to a 9-minute, 45 second solo with it isn't really conclusive. There's also 1/1 and bomb summon frequency and whatnot.

ALL of my pap solos ending up 37 minutes or close to it, regardless of whether I'm hitting higher damages, I almost never end up with a 33 minute solo or a 40 minute solo. This exact same concept should apply to archers as well.

Your minimum hit is probably around 70-80% of your max.

Due to SE, an archer's minimum hit is around 30% of their max.

What about the average damage? I'm pretty sure there's a finite average for damage.

Here's the thing:
Bowmen need to Strafe out Pap's bombs, so the more spawn on top, the faster the solo.
Pap's 2nd form needs to be repuppeted based on how long Puppet lasts. The longer each Puppet lasts, the faster that body is taken out.

Arch Mages can tank bombs, or just Ultimatize them all when they spawn. You can also tank Pap's 2nd form, leading to much less variation.

People tend to solo Pap the same way every time. I don't see what's different.

When I solo, I max out the top bomb spawn. I take a screenshot when the bomb spawn maxes out. The time it takes for pap to max out his bombs is variable, yet my time is STILL stable.

Really, there shouldn't be much variation.

The difference is what Pap does. Sometimes, almost all Bombs will summon on top at in the beginning. If that happens, solo goes faster. Sometimes he stuns less, etc.

The difference is what Pap does. Sometimes, almost all Bombs will summon on top at in the beginning. If that happens, solo goes faster. Sometimes he stuns less, etc.

Unless you FAILED to read, I do believe that I said that despite variation, the pap solo always takes the same time, that is, 37 minutes.

Unless you FAILED to read, I do believe that I said that despite variation, the pap solo always takes the same time, that is, 37 minutes.

Guess ya missed what I said too:

Bowmen need to Strafe out Pap's bombs, so the more spawn on top, the faster the solo.
Pap's 2nd form needs to be repuppeted based on how long Puppet lasts. The longer each Puppet lasts, the faster that body is taken out.

Arch Mages can tank bombs, or just Ultimatize them all when they spawn. You can also tank Pap's 2nd form, leading to much less variation.

Unless you think Retalion is lying about taking 13~17 minutes.

Bowmen need to Strafe out Pap's bombs, so the more spawn on top, the faster the solo.
Pap's 2nd form needs to be repuppeted based on how long Puppet lasts. The longer each Puppet lasts, the faster that body is taken out.

Arch Mages can tank bombs, or just Ultimatize them all when they spawn. You can also tank Pap's 2nd form, leading to much less variation.

I didn't miss it. What you describe is called "variation".

I said that despite variation, the solo takes around the same time. Arch Mages tanking bombs has nothing to do with it because successful solos don't allow for bombs to stick around for more than 2 seconds, which should be around the same for bowmen AND mages.

Tanking Pap's second form has nothing to do with it either because I end up avoiding it anyways. At most it shouldn't cost more than a minute or two. You're not going to be ducking for four minutes to avoid the second form.

Unless you think Retalion is lying about taking 13~17 minutes.

Nowhere did I say Jackk was lying.

I think what Jackk said was questionable. Let's say he can cider the whole thing. Then the solo would take 13 minutes. However, let's say cidering the whole thing would take 4 ciders. If Jackk only had 3 ciders, then he wouldn't have the cider for the last 25% of his solo, which would make sense, since his time jumped from 13 ~> 17, which as far as I can tell, is close to a 25% increase.

In a theoretical test using my friend's stats, the four attack from arrows gives a average SEVEN second difference in solo time, with solos taking anywhere between 13.2 minutes and 3.2 minutes.

In a realistic time, his Chew time vs Elixer time is a one minute difference. That's eight attack. If the difference between trials were only four attack, it would be a bit more than half that, around 35 seconds. How is that conclusive by any means?

Harrisonized, a combination of factors (which means that if you break this down, the point is lost):

1. Damage is less stable -> more variation.
2. Takes longer to eliminate bombs -> more variation.
3. Takes longer to keep 2nd form puppeted vs simply 'avoiding' it in general -> more variation.
4. Less time in total -> 4 attack difference is less -> compared to variation.

People prefer stronger pots because 12-16 minutes is preferable to 13-17 minutes. But it's not so easy to tell that you're taking 12-16 minutes as opposed to 13-17, without many repeated trials.

The way I see it is this:

Every 1/1 adds 10 seconds to my pap time (approximately)
Every stun adds another 5-10 seconds
Every dispel adds 3ish seconds
Each time a bomb blows up in my face, it adds another 2-3 seconds
puppeting 2nd form is obsolete as Im able to keep 2nd form in a corner with SOA
Each time I drop the pap crack in at the wrong spot, I lose another 10-15 seconds (and me being noob, I miss a lot for some reason xD)

The "ideal" time is 13 minutes, but it often goes above that depending on the times it 1/1s, stuns, dispels and as Im careless and not really focused ane usually tank bombs so the time adds up gradually.

That being said, my attack doesnt jump from 20 to 0 when the cider runs out; it goes to 11 attack because of level 1 concentrate, which is usually enough to finish pap.

I'll say its more my laziness in avoiding stuff such as dispel/stun that often leads to my slower times, not my damage itself but... yeah, every bit of damage helps in my opinion.

In a theoretical test using my friend's stats, the four attack from arrows gives a average SEVEN second difference in solo time, with solos taking anywhere between 13.2 minutes and 3.2 minutes.

In a realistic time, his Chew time vs Elixer time is a one minute difference. That's eight attack. If the difference between trials were only four attack, it would be a bit more than half that, around 35 seconds. How is that conclusive by any means?

Man, if it only saves you 35 seconds, what's the point in carrying these arrows. I don't understand this concept. =(

Man, if it only saves you 35 seconds, what's the point in carrying these arrows. I don't understand this concept. =(

Because it's easier than spending a few billion mesos to upgrade the same four attack.

I just did 2 Pap solos and they both ran under 10 minutes (a little above a Warrior Elixir), but even between the two runs there was so much variance that I don't think it would make a good controlled experiment.

A better way IMO to test whether the 4 attack arrows with SA actually add attack is to see whether you can 1HKO something (with normal attack) with the 4 attack arrows equipped as opposed to never 1HKO-ing with no attack arrows, although monster defense might make choosing a monster right on the threshold a bit hard.

-Sigh- What's this about Pap? Go solo Headless Horseman on Crossroads, all you have to do is hold the attack button down for a few seconds and he doesn't do anything that may cause any variation.

-Sigh- What's this about Pap? Go solo Headless Horseman on Crossroads, all you have to do is hold the attack button down for a few seconds and he doesn't do anything that may cause any variation.

I like your idea.