The Issue on Leech

The problem is that leeching robs a person of experiencing the class and learning how to play. If a person is just making an "x" mule, I see no problem with leeching because the mule is only going to exist to buff. The original purpose of the game is to enjoy the journey, not the destination. Nowadays, leechers try to justify rope humping as part of their journey.

B: "How did you get so high a level?"
A: "Oh, I humped a rope 24/7 while I went out and spend a thousand dollars on brand name clothes. I r so pro."
B: "Cool. Let's Pap!"
A: "Okay! I'm such a high level I will deal all the damage. "
*Later*
A: "OMG I CAN'T DECIDE WHAT TO ATTACK WITH. WHY DID I ONLY GET 2% OF THE EXP?! D:< I BLAME LAG."
*Even Later*
A: "I'm broke. Guess I can train. I'm a high level anways. "
*Skeles*
*Dies six times and gains 1%/hour*
A: "OMFG WHY AM I LEVELING SO SLOW?! LEECHING WAS SO FAST! I BLAME LAG."
*Quits*

Grossly exaggerated, but that is a general idea of what heavy leechers go through.

That is a hilariously misleading statement.

We'll compare your idea of pure leechers to people who have just recieved info to play on a character they have never played in their lives. About a week ago, my friend gave me the info to his BM, so I screwed around with it and after a few hours I could use it perfectly.

People who rely on leech to level are scrubs, and we don't need high level scrubs in the game. That's why they're still at a low level. Level used to separate the good players from most of the bad. Nowadays, we have bad players infesting 4th job.

You know why leechers are lower leveled? Because after a certain point, they don't need to leech because they can find parties. Nobody parties 10x players, they party with 4th jobbers. The "scrub leechers" don't leech because they don't have to pay money anymore. There isn't a "level to separate the good players from most of the bad" because that is simply nonexistant. Don't look at things from a black and white tunnel vision perspective.

Also, what other people do isn't any of your business. If a hobo wants to spend his money on alcohol instead of shelter, who cares? Why should you mock their activities? Why should you attempt to control or distinguish between them?

Again, the game is for grinding and partying, not hanging on a rope for levels.

And who are you to determine what the game is for?

Also for heavy leechers, you're forcing another player to do the work for you. Sure you pay them, but it's essentially like paying for Powerleveling services.

They're not forced to. They want to.

If someone is desperate and they want to buy service from a prostitute, who are you to control their private lives?

This is a game. Games are meant to be played.

If you don't want to play the game, why force yourself to do it? Why let others play the game for you?

So they can play the game when they want to and still level up when they're not present.

And like I said to IllegallySane, who are you to decide how the game should be played?

Yeah, leeching is stupid.

If people want to do it, let them. They won't be playing for long anyway.

I saw someone at newties today buying for 10m/hr. I don't know why someone would pay that much so they didn't have to play a game.

And Maple is about the journey, not the results >.>

And like I said to IllegallySane, who are you to decide how the game should be played?

Exactly. There's only one way to play a game: to constantly interact with it. If you are away, you are not playing, you are letting others play for you.

Exactly. There's only one way to play a game: to constantly interact with it. If you are away, you are not playing, you are letting others play for you.

Ok. Then... if you're not interacting with the game, you are not playing. If you're not interacting with the world, then you are not existing. If you're not awake, then you're not alive?

I'm not trying to be blunt, but what then, do you call people who afk while in a shop? Would you say 90% of the people in the FM are not playing? Would you require them to be "in game" when they sell their items?

Again, why should you determine how they want to play/interact with the game?

I don't get why people complain so much about others leeching. Why do you people care so much if others leech? If they aren't directly effecting me, I really couldn't give a crap what they do.

If people wanna be lazy and buy leech then let them shiet......

Ok. Then... if you're not interacting with the game, you are not playing. If you're not interacting with the world, then you are not existing. If you're not awake, then you're not alive?

I'm not trying to be blunt, but what then, do you call people who afk while in a shop? Would you say 90% of the people in the FM are not playing? Would you require them to be "in game" when they sell their items?

Again, why should you determine how they want to play/interact with the game?

The situations you described do not need the interaction of the user. However, killing monsters left and right, down and up DOES require the attention of the user.

The bolded part is all there is to it. If you are not playing, you just are not. I am not saying what's the correct way of playing, I'm saying that games are meant to be played.

Ok. Then... if you're not interacting with the game, you are not playing. If you're not interacting with the world, then you are not existing. If you're not awake, then you're not alive?

I'm not trying to be blunt, but what then, do you call people who afk while in a shop? Would you say 90% of the people in the FM are not playing? Would you require them to be "in game" when they sell their items?

Again, why should you determine how they want to play/interact with the game?

playing is interacting with the game. that's a very good description. your examples are faulty. you could easily describe existing as interacting with the world, as at any moment you exist, you are interacting with the world. even being asleep is interacting; even if all you're doing is breathing in and out.

people who AFK in a shop are not playing the game, but they are not benefiting off of another player playing the game for them. they're utilizing a feature on the game on their own character.

Oh God not this again I am so over arguing about this.

Leeching is not against the ToS. Leeching is viewed by some as morally wrong. Leeching is not viewed by some as morally wrong. Leeching is also not going away. All this thread will come to be is NO U! Can we please move on with life now?

I thought these threads were extinct on SouthPerry, apparently not.

You know why leechers are lower leveled? Because after a certain point, they don't need to leech because they can find parties. Nobody parties 10x players, they party with 4th jobbers. The "scrub leechers" don't leech because they don't have to pay money anymore. There isn't a "level to separate the good players from most of the bad" because that is simply nonexistant. Don't look at things from a black and white tunnel vision perspective.

"People who rely on leech to level are scrubs, and we don't need high level scrubs in the game. That's why they're still at a low level. Level used to separate the good players from most of the bad. Nowadays, we have bad players infesting 4th job."

It's not tunnel vision; reading comprehension ftl. I didn't say high level separate good players from all bad players. I said separated most, as in relative to all the low levels most of them will never make it to a high level.

-snip-
Again, why should you determine how they want to play/interact with the game?

How do you play/interact by not doing a single thing? It's called a game for a reason. You play it and experience it, not sit back and reap rewards when others do the work for you. It's not the equivalent of a hobo spending money on booze instead of a shelter or a guy paying a prostitute. It's more equivalent to getting a shmuck to go to work in your place and you take credit for what he does, benefitting from stuff such as bonuses, rewards, and promotions. Then when the shmuck one day gets the high position of VP/President/CEO, who gets the benefits and credit of the position? Not the shmuck. That's for sure.

Oh God not this again I am so over arguing about this.

Leeching is not against the ToS. Leeching is viewed by some as morally wrong. Leeching is not viewed by some as morally wrong. Leeching is also not going away. All this thread will come to be is NO U! Can we please move on with life now?

I thought these threads were extinct on SouthPerry, apparently not.

Well, if someone is selling NX for leech it's against the ToS

Well, if someone is selling NX for leech it's against the ToS

Exchanging in game services for real life currency is against the ToS. Leech isn't the main focus of that statement. Kabanaw, I too think it's immoral. But let's just sit back and let them waste their efforts arguing =S

I don't like the idea of leeching, but I am not going to go out of the way to stop others from doing it. And the only time it really gets to me is when I am looking for a map and they are taken by leechers, or when people in the guild/buddy list are spamming b> leech plzzz i need to level

Hey I thought of a way... call it your "leech rating".

If all Priests have a similar rating, you'll still be able to tell who's training sometimes and who always leeches. It's not like the ideal is to be 100% solo, it's just a way to tell who's leeching more.

& bigger parties still split majority to the person doing the killing, I suspect it never goes below ~30% of the exp gained from your own kills unless you're partying someone significantly more powerful.

Um... Hate to break it to you, but some priests never get the majority EXP from a monster. We take down... maybe 10% of the monster's HP, or less. I primarily train at Himes as a mobber and HSer for characters at least 10, and up to 40 or 50 levels higher than me. When I was 8x, I trained with a 13x Buc a lot. Over 2x recently, I trained with a level 144 Stonetooth Hero who was 2-hitting. I got 40% an hour without the 2x (in my late 9x!), but did I ever get a "kill" when he was in the map? No. I do like 1k-5k per hit with Heal (and HP equips to not need HB). I don't SR because I lag too much, but it wouldn't make much difference... it's slower and does 4k-5.5k. The Hero did 40k each to 3 Himes at speed Fast (4) with Booster. You do the math.

I don't see how you can differentiate between a priest working his/her tail off at Himes (if you don't use MG, you can't chat, and you can't type long sentences even with MG) and a leecher. Yes, priests do hit the Himes at least once, but some leechers do too.

Also, you can't distinguish priests/bishops and mages on the rankings, and a leeching mage's rating could be higher than a training priest's. o_O

It's like the KMST exp system.... You might as well criminalize partying with someone more than 20 levels over you.

I don't see how it matters, anyway... When I get to bishop, I probably won't sell leech (more out of respect for friends who hate leeching), but I don't care about leechers. I don't think they should take up highly used training maps, but that's another story.


More to the specific topic... I feel like other versions have it more right on this. I get a bit of deja vu sometimes with the whole kerfluffle when 2x was first out... "OMG PPLZ BUYING EXP" kind of thing. It's just with mesos instead of NX this time... Eventually, we'll get used to it just like 2x. These days, anyway, mesos and NX are both equally available to anyone who wants to put in the time to merch/farm...

Exchanging in game services for real life currency is against the ToS. Leech isn't the main focus of that statement. Kabanaw, I too think it's immoral. But let's just sit back and let them waste their efforts arguing =S

Eh, the arguing is fun, it adds some entertainment on the forums if it doesn't get out of hand >.>

The bolded part is all there is to it. If you are not playing, you just are not. I am not saying what's the correct way of playing, I'm saying that games are meant to be played.

By saying how games are "meant" to be played, then you're implying how they should be "correctly played".

playing is interacting with the game. that's a very good description.

Yes, it is a good description. Consider the following example though: what if you alt tab to check something, and then alt tab in? Have you ceased playing?

your examples are faulty. you could easily describe existing as interacting with the world, as at any moment you exist, you are interacting with the world. even being asleep is interacting; even if all you're doing is breathing in and out.

Then if you're dead, then you can technically interact with the world by occupying space. O_o

people who AFK in a shop are not playing the game, but they are not benefiting off of another player playing the game for them. they're utilizing a feature on the game on their own character.

Yes, they are benefiting off other players. They are not "actively" spamming "S>___" in FM Entrance, and when people buy their items, they get the money. I don't see how that's not benefit. Also, you could also argue that people who leech are "utilizing a feature on the game", in which case would be the party system.

Oh God not this again I am so over arguing about this.

LoL yea. I think this thread should be closed but the mods apparently let it live so w/e.

Leeching is not against the ToS. Leeching is viewed by some as morally wrong. Leeching is not viewed by some as morally wrong. Leeching is also not going away. All this thread will come to be is NO U! Can we please move on with life now?

"People who rely on leech to level are scrubs, and we don't need high level scrubs in the game. That's why they're still at a low level. Level used to separate the good players from most of the bad. Nowadays, we have bad players infesting 4th job."

It's not tunnel vision; reading comprehension ftl. I didn't say high level separate good players from all bad players. I said separated most, as in relative to all the low levels most of them will never make it to a high level.

Yes it's tunnel vision. By what you wrote, the "bad" people either quit or continue. If they quit, they're part of the "most of the bad" that you described. Seeing people as good/bad is tunnel vision no matter how you look at it.

Let's say a murderer feels remorse for his crimes, and spends years helping others to ease his guilt? Would he still be as "bad" as a murderer who enjoys killing?

It's called a game for a reason. You play it and experience it, not sit back and reap rewards when others do the work for you. It's not the equivalent of a hobo spending money on booze instead of a shelter or a guy paying a prostitute. It's more equivalent to getting a shmuck to go to work in your place and you take credit for what he does, benefitting from stuff such as bonuses, rewards, and promotions. Then when the shmuck one day gets the high position of VP/President/CEO, who gets the benefits and credit of the position? Not the shmuck. That's for sure.

You do know that happens in real life right? The people who suck up more generally tend to advance faster than even the most diligent workers.

By saying how games are "meant" to be played, then you're implying how they should be "correctly played".

No, no, no and no. All I am saying is that games are meant to be played. I am not saying how they should be played, I am saying they are meant to be played. Games. Play. Play. Games.

Leeching is not playing.

The biggest problem I have with leeching, among many other things, is that leechers take up maps, both in the sense that they use the map while leeching and in the sense that they need the maps to train on once they hit a higher level (or to leech other people, if an archmage/bishop). Seriously, many times I find like 10-15/19 newtie channels full of leechers.

Yes it's tunnel vision. By what you wrote, the "bad" people either quit or continue. If they quit, they're part of the "most of the bad" that you described. Seeing people as good/bad is tunnel vision no matter how you look at it.

Let's say a murderer feels remorse for his crimes, and spends years helping others to ease his guilt? Would he still be as "bad" as a murderer who enjoys killing?

You do know that happens in real life right? The people who suck up more generally tend to advance faster than even the most diligent workers.

1. When I mean good/bad I did not mean the classic good/bad of heroes vs villains. I am talking about people who deserved getting to where they were, and people who don't. Good players can suck it up through training and know what to do. Bad players can't because they don't have the dedication, and sometimes because they can not play their class.

2. When the hell did my example showed sucking up? This is a shmuck who is doing all the work for person A and person A takes all the credit. It did not pineappling matter if the shmuck spent 9 years getting that big promotion, or 3 years sucking up to people to get that big promotion. The point is in the end the guy who put absolutely no effort towards his job is getting all the benefits and credit for what shmuck did.

The biggest problem I have with leeching, among many other things, is that leechers take up maps, both in the sense that they use the map while leeching and in the sense that they need the maps to train on once they hit a higher level (or to leech other people, if an archmage/bishop). Seriously, many times I find like 10-15/19 newtie channels full of leechers.

Pff, try Scania. I have to get on right after school or right after I wake up and I'm still lucky if a map is available. >.>

This is why I so dearly want Leafre Mini Dungeons. It will give enough room for everyone and their grandmothers to train there. Plus, leechers will have to come back every hour or else they won't be able to keep training.

1. When I mean good/bad I did not mean the classic good/bad of heroes vs villains. I am talking about people who deserved getting to where they were, and people who don't. Good players can suck it up through training and know what to do. Bad players can't, and sometimes is because they can not play their class.

By your first post, you made it sound like ALL "bad" players can't play their class. Also, the fault in this is that all people, regardless of "good/bad" by your definition, can play ANY character within a few hours as long as they practice. They may not necessarily be experts at it, but they certainly can play it.

2. When the hell did my example showed sucking up? This is a shmuck who is doing all the work for person A and person A takes all the credit. It did not pineappling matter if the shmuck spent 9 years getting that big promotion, or 3 years sucking up to people to get that big promotion. The point is in the end the guy who put absolutely no effort towards his job is getting all the benefits and credit for what shmuck did.

It doesn't show sucking up. I'm simply saying that the "bad" people in real life do advance, contrary to what you wrote, and they achieve that by sucking up.