Super Smash Bros. Wii U and 3DS Discussion

I have been thinking about "clones" in this game... I think they are not that bad, if you consider character customization. Depending on how far they go, you could have your own "clones", like, a custom piece that turns mario's fireballs into pills, and an outfit of Dr Mario. Just that particular custom sets are considered as a new character, like a different template with the same moveset. Maybe all characters have an alternate, like Mario-Dr Mario, with slight gameplay differences over the same moveset.

That could be interesting, and would explain why Lucina didn't have her own "giant newcomer button". Heck, she's a fireless Roy, now that I think about it. Maybe it's that too.

Girl Marth > Marth though ._.

In terms of what? Mechanics? Gameplay? In terms of confirmed mechanics changes that we know of, smash4 has A LOT less hitstun than 64, meaning the time after being hit by something where you can't attack or do anything is reduced. One of the biggest changes is air dodging though. Shielding in the air causes you to dodge and have invincibility frames. In melee, you could move yourself in any direction while dodging which allowed for wavedashing/wavelanding and for some characters, better recovery. In brawl, you couldn't move in any direction after an air dodge, which is how it is in smash4. However in brawl, if you air dodged and hit the ground, you could hit the shield button up to 10 frames before you hit the ground then you will power shield and be able to escape attacks easy mode. In smash4, if you air dodge and hit the ground, there is landing lag, meaning you can't spam it and expect to not be hit.

The only differences between WiiU and 3DS smash is A) stage selections B) game modes (smash run is 3DS only for example) and C) the console it is played on. Everything else is exactly the same if i remember correctly.

Melee has A LOT less hitstun than 64 too. Comparing any game to 64 is silly. Not to mention, comparing any smash game to another is plain silly. Let's face the facts, every single smash game is completely different from the other one. Comparing them would be somewhat meaningless because the amount of differences is too high. Also every game has landing lag but you would reduce it through the use of L-cancelling. We don't know how the final game is going to be with respect to this and chances are we're never going to know until the Wii U release. The 3DS and Wii U versions already feel "different" as-of the E3 build so chances are they might (or might not) end up feeling different upon release too.

Anyway.

Pic of the day. Along with Robin, Lucina joins the battle!! Her physical ablilites are identical to Marth's--it must be in her D.N.A. However, where Marth's power is concentrated in the tip of the sword, Lucina's attack strength is balanced throughout the weapon, which might make her easier to control. She's also a little bit shorter than Marth.

With the Wii Fit Trainers, the male and female Robins, the Villagers, and Little Mac, varying their appearances and voices works just like selecting alternate color variations. However, whenever there is even a small difference in abilities, that character gets an actual roster slot. That is why you can select Lucina individually.

By the way…there's probably no chance you'll be able to see this in the game, but Lucina has the mark of Naga in her left eye.

Heck, she's a fireless Roy, now that I think about it. Maybe it's that too.

That IS interesting... that would make Marth and Link have 2 clones of themselves each spanning across all the games. Although, Roy did have a sourspot aka the wet newspaper whenever you hit with the tip.

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The thing about Lucina's lack of sour spot makes me think that she won't be as good as Marth. The way Marth works just rewards spacing and good play and can easily take advantage of his tipper while Lucina is pretty much set. So as you get better, Marth may be better in the end, though this is just useless speculation :v

I don't think counter was shown in the reveal. All we saw of lucina's moveset was nair, up-B, uair, oh yeah and dragon dance. All of them are similar if not exactly the same as marth.

Whoops, I confused Down-B with Side-B.


So she's basically kind of like what Roy was to Marth in Melee? Seems pointless other than for fanservice.

Whoops, I confused Down-B with Side-B.


So she's basically kind of like what Roy was to Marth in Melee? Seems pointless other than for fanservice.

Fanservice is NEVER pointless.

Melee has A LOT less hitstun than 64 too. Comparing any game to 64 is silly. Not to mention, comparing any smash game to another is plain silly. Let's face the facts, every single smash game is completely different from the other one. Comparing them would be somewhat meaningless because the amount of differences is too high. Also every game has landing lag but you would reduce it through the use of L-cancelling. We don't know how the final game is going to be with respect to this and chances are we're never going to know until the Wii U release. The 3DS and Wii U versions already feel "different" as-of the E3 build so chances are they might (or might not) end up feeling different upon release too.

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He literally asked what has changed between 64 and smash4. To answer that i tried to explain how new mechanics work compared to how they acted in all the titles in between. I know melee has less hitstun than 64. All smash games have less hitstun than 64; smash4 is the only game with comparable hitstun but it's still less.

Brawl does not have landing lag on air dodges, a new mechanic that 64 does not have. If it does have any lag it is completely negated by buffering. How am i supposed to explain air dodges without explaining how they work in melee and brawl? I'm not comparing the games, i'm comparing the mechanics, which is completely valid.

How would you answer his question without comparing two games at all?

aka the wet newspaper

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO never heard that before that's so funny

So as you get better, Marth may be better in the end, though this is just useless speculation :v

I think this is a good point. It may end up being a better pick if you have the marth syndrome though i.e you're only killing really really late because you can't tipper or gimp and are losing because of it. Compared to lucina where she might be able to kill solidly between the low and high percents which is where marth gets kills.

It might be very beneficial to marth mains because they'll instantly get a secondary as good as their main to work with to use in different situations where marth won't cut it.

I'm wondering if there's more subtle differences to Lucina that they haven't bothered mentioning. Things that would interest competitive players, but not casual ones

Lucina's falchion sure looks a lot shorter than it did in awakening

Lucina's falchion sure looks a lot shorter than it did in awakening

That's for the sake of game balance though. If she had balanced power vs marth with the same range, why pick marth? Same reason why roy was slower than marth. There has to be differences or else you're making one character needlessly better than the other.

I'm wondering if there's more subtle differences to Lucina that they haven't bothered mentioning. Things that would interest competitive players, but not casual ones

They already listed one. Lucina doesn't have tipper and is stronger outside the tip compared to Marth. Every "clone" in this game has played fundamentally different from the original character. e.g. Fox/Falco/Wolf, Toon Link/Link, Pichu/Pikachu, Dr. Mario/Mario, Ganondorf/Captain Falcon. So they all have the subtle (more like major) differences that matter to competitive players because they all play differently. I honestly think casual players are more likely to complain about "clones" than competitive players.

I honestly think casual players are more likely to compare about "clones" than competitive players.

Complain*?

This is very true. Competitive players complain about clones to some extent though, but only if they're trash. Aka only pichu lol.

Clones are complained about because smash gets maybe 12-15 new characters per entry, and we'd like them to be more varied than that.

It's a big deal because at best, a smash game comes along maybe every 6 years.

And now we have two separate Marth clones in smash history, which is both hilarious and ridiculous.

My two cents:

In the buzz about Lucina, I see that a lot of people comparing her to Roy. Roy is a clone, but is that really such a bad thing? A lot of people enjoyed Roy as a character in Melee, whether he was a clone or not. A lot of people wanted him to be in Brawl, and were disappointed when he wasn't. So why is Lucina any different. There is a clear black and white to who is happy with her reveal (since they like the character Lucina and what she brings to the table), and those who are bitter (since she's a clone and feel that she's bland). If I had to guess... it's because people are concerned that she 'occupies a slot' and are disappointed because they would like to see a 'more deserving' entry.

But is that logic indeed sound? I went back and took a look on how many newcomers each sequel had, as well as the ones we've seen so far for Smash 4:

Melee:14 (for a total of 26 characters playable)
Brawl:16 (18 if you count Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard as seperate characters) 37 (or 39) total characters playable
Smash 4 (so far): 11 (36 total characters payable)

After all's said and done, it really is the developers' decision of how many 'slots' there is for a game. There are still more reveals to come, and if I had to guess on how many... I'd say that there's still quite a few. Smash's roster always expands from sequel to sequel, and I think that it's safe to say that Smash 4 is no exception. Sure Lucina wasn't the best reveal. But she's far from the worst.

And now we have two separate Marth clones in smash history, which is both hilarious and ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? That's a genuine question, I'm neither for or against Lucina being in the game...but I also don't care that Mario and Fox have gotten 2 "clones."

Sure Lucina wasn't the best reveal. But she's far from the worst.

'Twas a good idea to dump her in with Robin & Captain Falcon, so that that people didn't go into a "they're only going to reveal clones now" panic.

I hope Dr. Mario returns, then. With those slight differences, I liked his moves more than Mario's.

My two cents:

In the buzz about Lucina, I see that a lot of people comparing her to Roy. Roy is a clone, but is that really such a bad thing? A lot of people enjoyed Roy as a character in Melee, whether he was a clone or not. A lot of people wanted him to be in Brawl, and were disappointed when he wasn't. So why is Lucina any different. There is a clear black and white to who is happy with her reveal (since they like the character Lucina and what she brings to the table), and those who are bitter (since she's a clone and feel that she's bland). If I had to guess... it's because people are concerned that she 'occupies a slot' and are disappointed because they would like to see a 'more deserving' entry.

But is that logic indeed sound? I went back and took a look on how many newcomers each sequel had, as well as the ones we've seen so far for Smash 4:

Melee:14 (for a total of 26 characters playable)
Brawl:16 (18 if you count Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard as seperate characters) 37 (or 39) total characters playable
Smash 4 (so far): 11 (36 total characters payable)

After all's said and done, it really is the developers' decision of how many 'slots' there is for a game. There are still more reveals to come, and if I had to guess on how many... I'd say that there's still quite a few. Smash's roster always expands from sequel to sequel, and I think that it's safe to say that Smash 4 is no exception. Sure Lucina wasn't the best reveal. But she's far from the worst.

The argument against clones in this game is as follows. People have a lot more of a problem with new undeserved entries because this is the first handheld smash where limitations on the medium was made known by the developers well in advance. Despite having theoretically less effort required to implement, that time can still be used towards fixing things that would negatively affect the product as a whole which could potentially turn off lucina supporters, naysayers, and everyone else. The more characters we get period increase the tensions that people have about a well functioning product on a handheld system. The fact that 3DS release was delayed by several months supports the idea that it was being rushed. The 3DS version existing in the first place takes away from the wii U version but due to the fact that these games are heavily linked the handheld version cannot be a failure or else the entire project will flop in more ways than one.

A clone character doesn't really make these concerns that much more real compared to a true new character, but we already have a lot more characters in this game than we assumed it would have based on sakurai saying it would have less characters due to 3DS limitations and that is still a concern clone character or not. I'm sure there won't be any real problems though; the profitability is too high for nintendo and sakurai to not go all out since they aren't just selling a game this time, they'll be selling a wii u as well.

I don't have a problem with clones especially in this game though. Sakurai has proven to make really solid decisions this time around in regards to character design and inclusions and making it all work, and i really don't think lucina is any different.

Roy's debut game is SSBM (and his sequel is Fire Emblem 6 :v ). If Roy was never in Melee, I doubt anyone would give 2 effs who Roy was. Heck, I don't give a damn who Roy is because he's a mediocre lord with a somewhat cryptic but inevitably shallow story.

You had a nobody like Roy who had a (imo) pretty crappy Fire Emblem game that nobody ever played (at the time), ever could play without importing/translating/emulating, or ever will play because it's a pretty bad game, and still became relevant to people today in 2014 because of smash. Now you have Lucina who had the merit of becoming the most popular character in the best selling Fire Emblem game to date with a modest global presence, now joining smash. I'd say Nintendo had the full intention of adding her (and they determined the roster well in advance). This release is definitely bringing Fire Emblem a lot of promotion that I'm happy for. If anything, close to everyone who didn't play Awakening now knows who Lucina is now.

How Lucina is similar to Marth is pretty unfortunate (I guess) in terms of fighter diversity because of her relationship to Marth in Awakening. Though I don't understand why having a "clone" is a bad thing. What does that really mean to someone who plays Smash? Other than aesthetics, clones are rarely never played the same anyway. Falcon and Ganondorf are complete opposites in almost every way imaginable even if they are aesthetically similar (Brawl goes as far as completely changing all the animations on Ganondorf even though he's about 95% a ported melee-Ganon in concept). It's jarring to think that with all these newcomers, revamped veterans, brand new stages, and overall polish that people will complain that Lucina can use Dancing Blades/Dolphin Slash like Marth does or something silly like that. Nevermind the full VA, high-res model, portraits, Chrom final smash, and promotional material...

Chrom final smash

That's for robin though. I would bet money that lucina's final smash is the same as marth.